Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[a-dev]

Very good. Very good.

Does Luke say ''you want the impossible'' in Empire? I've always thought he said ''you are impossible''.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Does Luke say ''you want the impossible'' in Empire? I've always thought he said ''you are impossible''.

You actually made me second-guess myself on a movie I've watched more times than I can count. But I'm glad you did, because watching that scene again made me realize that I neglected to mention Yoda telling Luke: "Always with you it cannot be done."

Yep, nothing says "Luke was always an eternal optimist" better than a Jedi Master who had been watching him his whole life say that one of his defining traits is his pessimism/doubt.

 

[slikkerias]

At least I'm learning that these videos can be good for unintended laughs. The guy in that latest one keeps repeating how irrelevant Rian Johnson is . . . as he gives an 11-minute rant about Rian Johnson (nearly a full year after the movie came out). When referring to Johnson, he says "This man cannot let it go!" I just love the irony of that.

The crux of the video is that Johnson doesn't get the Luke Skywalker character because Luke is the "eternal optimist." He repeats that several times as if Luke never had his hope and faith turn to cynicism in the OT. Yep; the "eternally optimistic" Luke who screamed "NEVERRRRR!!!!!" and went after his dad with a murderous fury. The same Luke who pulled a blaster on Jabba in an attempt to assassinate him because Jabba wouldn't listen to reason (or to mind tricks).

So, coming within seconds of murdering his father for threatening to turn Leia (after insisting there was good in Vader) was consistent with eternal optimism because Luke stopped himself in time. But having a fleeting impulse that goes no further than igniting a lightsaber (even though the darkness he saw in his nephew actually played itself out that very same night) is way out of character. Thank goodness YouTube is full of these geniuses who understand Star Wars, and SW characterizations, so damn well.

Like when Luke threw a hissy fit in Yoda's hut, it must've been his eternal optimism kicking in. And when Yoda told him he wouldn't need his weapons in the cave . . . and Luke took them anyway; yep, there's that persistent faith again. And when Luke told Yoda, "we'll never get it out now" and "you want the impossible" . . . that's what led to the great line of: "That is why you fail . . . your eternal optimism." Oh, wait; is that how Yoda's line went? Had to be.

Here's another example of the amazingly comprehensive grasp on these characters. In the video, he objects to Luke sensing only evil in Kylo, even though he was able to see good in Vader. He says about Kylo, "You know what he did with his evilness? He destroyed an elevator and a computer console." He compares that to Vader by saying, "What did Vader do? He murdered younglings; he killed his wife; he killed tons and tons of Jedi" and "he kills his own men; he cut his son's hand off; he froze Han Solo in carbonite." Well, let's see how that all holds up to scrutiny:

• Vader: murdered younglings. Kylo: murdered his uncle's Jedi students.
• Vader: killed his wife (semi-unintentionally). Kylo: murdered his father (very intentionally).
• Vader: killed "tons and tons" of Jedi. Kylo: has a village destroyed over a map fragment! Then murders a family friend (Lor San Tekka) . . . just because.
• Vader: kills his own men. Kylo: kills his own boss (and his guards)! And not just to become a good guy again, btw.
• Vader: cuts Luke's hand off. Kylo: brought a ceiling down on Luke and burned his temple. Also shot at him with a ****ton of AT-AT's and sliced through Luke's entire body (not knowing Luke was a Force projection).
• Vader: froze Han in carbonite. Kylo: what did he do to Han, again? Oh, yeah . . .

Brilliant!

 

[ajp4mgs]

I appreciate the kind sentiments (from all), but the sad truth is that there's nothing brilliant or insightful about what I wrote. It was just observations stemming from actually paying attention to what happens in these movies. That's something that the angry YouTube critics don't seem to be capable of. Luke was never as simple to define in a cookie-cutter way as "eternal optimist" or "archetypal good guy." Luke has always been a more layered character than the TLJ critics give him credit for. The kind of simplification that the YouTubers use is actually a disservice to everything that Lucas established about the character.

As I suggested in that post, I don't see "eternal optimism" as the defining characteristic of Luke Skywalker. For me, his more defining characteristic is his sense of loyalty and duty. And just as important is the attached consequence of extreme loyalty and duty being an extreme sense of personal accountability for his related actions. Those are the traits that define Luke throughout the entire OT at every pivotal point in his journey.

When Obi-Wan first asks Luke to join him in going to Alderaan, Luke says no. Why? Because of his sense of loyalty and duty to his Uncle Owen. His aunt and uncle needed him first, and they were family. It's the same reason why Luke hadn't joined the Academy, and was going to have to put it off for another season. His sense of loyalty and duty took precedence over his sense of adventure (another defining characteristic), and even over his sense for helping those in need.

When Luke left everything he was doing/learning on Dagobah to go help his friends, that was the same loyalty kicking in. He was more loyal to Han and Leia than he was to this cool little green Jedi he'd just met. Same thing with Luke putting everything else off to go rescue Han from Jabba. The more loyal he was to someone, the more fiercely Luke took his duty to help them. But, that also meant that if he failed it would be devastating to him.

Luke's loyalties were thrown for a loop when he learned that Vader was his father. He had family again!! His desire to turn Vader had more to do with simply redeeming his father than it did with helping the Alliance. In fact, I don't think Luke ever once mentioned that turning Vader would help the Alliance, or help topple the Empire. It was more personal. It was loyalty and duty to help preserve a member of his family. And when Luke learned that Leia was his sister, she became the object of his strongest loyalty. His duty to protect her proved itself to be paramount to Luke.

Some people like to think that Luke was immovably committed to turning Vader (y'know, Luke's "eternal optimism" in Vader's goodness and all). The problem is that when Vader threatened to turn Leia, Luke responded by getting his kill mode on. Luke's sense of duty was prioritized according to his loyalties. Protecting Leia took precedence in that moment.

These are the reasons why Luke never would have left his sister and friends in danger for years, and stayed away on some mysterious quest as billions (including Han) died. No way!! But that's what TFA told us he did. So, it was up to TLJ to make that somehow make sense. To me, TLJ did better at that than I had even thought possible.

Luke being cut off from the Force went a long way for me in reconciling his continued absence. And being deeply devastated by failing his duty to his nephew worked for me too. Luke should (and would) take failing Ben - and repeating history - tragically hard. Most of all, seeking to prevent anything like what had happened to his father and nephew from ever happening again was a justification for his exile that I thought was the equivalent of pulling a rabbit out of a hat. Not only do I think all of it is consistent enough with Luke's character, I think it all salvaged a horribly inconsistent premise (a prolonged exile) in the first place. But I know that many will always disagree. Oh well.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Darth Vader Evil Sith Lord could not bring himself to kill his own son (family). Luke Skywalker, hero of the rebel alliance and savior of the Jedi Order, who was willing to die for his father, considers Killing his nephew in his sleep like a true evil bastard. Actually reminds me of what Palpatine did to his master... In Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, Chancellor Palpatine, tells Anakin Skywalker the story of Darth Plagueis the wise in an attempt to lure him further to the dark side of the force. The legend about the Dark Lord who could influence midichlorions to prevent people he cared about from dying. Accept he taught his apprentice (palpatine) all he knew, and then the apprentice killed him while he was asleep . You can expect someone like, Palpatine, or any other evil sith lord to do something like that- kill someone in their sleep, but not Luke Skywalker. It’s not believable given the character regardless if he had become jaded, you don't become and evil cowardly bastard when your jaded- he would never consider doing such a thing. Only a coward and truly evil person would consider killing someone while they were sleeping especially a family member. So what was Rian trying to tell us about Luke here, why draw this connection to the story of Darth Plagueis the wise??? Rian had so many other options here, Why didn't Luke confront kylo while was he was awake, kylo could have freaked out and still did what he did, but Luke's character wouldn't have been destroyed/hurt in the process. Rian obviously did not like the character of Luke Skywalker; his mission was to destroy this icon in order to elevate these new heroes.

Luke wasn't pessimistic, Han Solo was, Luke was always optimistic. He just didn't fully believe in what the force could do when he failed to lift the xwing and said that to Yoda. When he said "impossible" he truly believed lifting the xwing out of the bog using the force was impossible, he never saw obi wan perform such feats, all he had lifted up until that point were tiny rocks.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Darth Vader Evil Sith Lord could not bring himself to kill his own son (family). Luke Skywalker, hero of the rebel alliance and savior of the Jedi Order, who was willing to die for his father, considers Killing his nephew in his sleep like a true evil bastard.

When Luke learned/heard of Vader's potential corruption of Leia, did he have an impulse to kill his father in that moment? Yes, or no?

 

[Jaycepticon]

When Luke learned/heard of Vader's potential corruption of Leia, did he have an impulse to kill his father in that moment? Yes, or no?

He definitely lost control in that split second but came to his senses less than a minute later.

Who knows how much time he had to think it over with Ben though. And if we're only talking the same split second that flashback in TLJ showed, then there's bigger issues with why is Jake even sneaking into sleeping Ben's room at night in the first place....

 

[ajp4mgs]

He definitely lost control in that split second but came to his senses less than a minute later.

Who knows how much time he had to think it over with Ben though. And if we're only talking the same split second that flashback in TLJ showed, then there's bigger issues with why is Jake even sneaking into sleeping Ben's room at night in the first place....

Actually, we know how much time Luke had to think it over with Ben: exactly the amount of time shown in the flashback (and described in the novelization stemming from the TLJ scripts).

As far as sneaking into Ben's room in the first place, that's also explicitly clear from watching the movie. Luke had sensed darkness surrounding Ben, but had only sensed it on the edges. He went into that room to learn more. Easier to do when the subject is asleep and unable to resist a probe with the Force. Also less awkward than explaining to Ben why he can sense his uncle probing his mind over breakfast.

 

[Khev]

Actually, we know how much time Luke had to think it over with Ben: exactly the amount of time shown in the flashback (and described in the novelization stemming from the TLJ scripts).

As far as sneaking into Ben's room in the first place, that's also explicitly clear from watching the movie. Luke had sensed darkness surrounding Ben, but had only sensed it on the edges. He went into that room to learn more. Easier to do when the subject is asleep and unable to resist a probe with the Force. Also less awkward than explaining to Ben why he can sense his uncle probing his mind over breakfast.

What's interesting is how that ties into dialogue from ESB. TLJ Luke wouldn't be the first Jedi Master to probe a pupil's thoughts without their consent, Yoda did it too. "This one, a long time have I watched. Always his mind on the horizon..." Luke also said that there was something familiar about Dagobah, like something out of a dream, which can support the ST notion that you can sense when someone is reading your mind. Yoda theoretically might have been monitoring young Luke while he was awake, thus inadvertently giving him visions of Dagobah, but wasn't concerned with Luke getting those little flashes because he was so far away. TLJ Luke on the other hand needed to be much more discreet given his physical proximity and emotional relationship to young Ben.

Interesting stuff.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

Actually, we know how much time Luke had to think it over with Ben: exactly the amount of time shown in the flashback (and described in the novelization stemming from the TLJ scripts).

As far as sneaking into Ben's room in the first place, that's also explicitly clear from watching the movie. Luke had sensed darkness surrounding Ben, but had only sensed it on the edges. He went into that room to learn more. Easier to do when the subject is asleep and unable to resist a probe with the Force. Also less awkward than explaining to Ben why he can sense his uncle probing his mind over breakfast.

He is his uncle, he shouldn't of been probing his mind to begin with, that what talking is for. You know talk to him like Obi wan tried talking to Anakin, he didn't sneak into Anakins room while he was asleep to probe is mind, then in a moment of weakness consider killing Anakin. He tried to save him even up until the last moment when he said you are truly lost. He didn't even kill Anakin when he had a chance, he left him to the will of the force.

Mind probing is what snoke does, its what kylo ren does... and I guess Luke too... Rian must have thought luke was a sith lord.. Killing people in their sleep and probing minds

 

[ajp4mgs]

He is his uncle, he shouldn't of been probing his mind to begin with, that what talking is for. You know talk to him like Obi wan tried talking to Anakin, he didn't sneak into Anakins room while he was asleep to probe is mind, then in a moment of weakness consider killing Anakin. He tried to save him even up until the last moment when he said you are truly lost. He didn't even kill Anakin when he had a chance, he left him to the will of the force

How did "talking it out" with Anakin work for Kenobi? You think maybe if Obi-Wan had been as wise as Luke to sense darkness on the edges of his pupil, and want to know if there's more to it, that the galaxy would've been better off? Maybe the tragic turn of Anakin Skywalker could've been prevented.

 

[Skywalker(OG)Kush]

It didn't work your right, but Obi wan wasn't tarnished in the process. He didn't act out of character at all. That was all anakins choice. Again the will of the force. If Kylo was to turn evil and luke tried his best like obi wan did, then so be it. You cannot save everyone

 

[ajp4mgs]

It didn't work your right, but Obi wan wasn't tarnished in the process. He didn't act out of character at all. That was all anakins choice. Again the will of the force. If Kylo was to turn evil and luke tried his best like obi wan did, then so be it. You cannot save everyone

I agree that Kenobi didn't act out of character. But I also think Luke didn't either. I've stated my reasons why as clearly as I can. You disagree with me, and I get that. I guess we just see things differently when we watch these movies; especially when it comes to characterization. Nothing wrong with that.

I also agree that you can't save everyone. Luke had to come to grips with that. He blames himself for what happened to Ben. But that's because Luke has an exaggerated sense of personal accountability. It's a common trait for people with a strong conscience. Anakin was turned, and Kenobi couldn't sense it happening. Yoda didn't have a strong enough sense for it either. They shouldn't be blamed for that. Luke shouldn't blame himself either, but at least he got a step further than his Jedi Master predecessors did with Anakin.

 

[jal76]

Lot of Luke "would have" and Luke "should have" but unfortunately for some the only thing that matters is Luke DID...the movie was already made so whatever Luke did or did not do is what Luke did or did not do...the movie gets the final say on Luke because that's the way it goes. If Metallica releases a country song it may not be for me and it may not sound like the band that I used to love but I can't say "it's not Metallica...!" because it is if it is. Everyone is well within their rights to hate the direction that Luke took but the second that final cut was locked in that became Luke. Some folks maybe should have outbid Disney's 4 billion then they could have enjoyed their head canon take on the character as much as I enjoyed what Rian Johnson did with the character.

 

[YoNoSe]

Nah. That’s not Luke.

Settled.

 

[slikkerias]

Nah. That’s not Luke.

Settled.

You can of course settle all you want with yourself. You can even close the curtains if you want.

 

[YoNoSe]

What about my carpet? Any thoughts?

 

[jal76]

To really put things into perspective...not counting the 5 second dialogue-free tease at the end of TFA, or the crying baby in ROTS Luke Skywalker has only really ever appeared in 4 movies. So a whole 25% of the character's cinematic existence was crafted by Rian Johnson and is contained by TLJ. That's a LOT of Luke!

 

[slikkerias]

What about my carpet? Any thoughts?

No, asking me would involve my opinion. So that a no go. ;-)

 

[Khev]

I won't post the link but I just saw a video where someone called out the utter stupidity of the Resistance heading to Crait but jumping out of hyperspace so far from the planet that not one but *two* of their capital ships ran out of fuel before they could arrive?? Holy crap I never thought of that, lol. So if the FO never showed up they still would have abandoned two ships on their way to the planet? RJ really did make the FO and Resistance utterly idiotic in this film.

Compare that to the Empire dispersing bombers and bounty hunters to track the Falcon in ESB which led to them being able to anticipate (thanks to Fett) where Han was going and beat him to his destination.