Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Bravomite]

I can't believe this recent string of posts criticizing TLJ got started based on . . .



. . . yet another ******* internet video. Can we please start recognizing that the vast majority of these videos are created and narrated by idiots? Please!? It would save a lot of time in this thread.



Correct.



Correct.

The Resistance had made a quick hyperspace calculation to a rendezvous point. Crait was NOT that rendezvous point. It happened to be the closest old Rebel base nearby.

But, since I don't have my own YouTube videos, I know that my word isn't going to be convincing enough. So, here's two photos from the TLJ novelization. I have spotlighted the relevant parts to this discussion to make it easier.

View attachment 433457

View attachment 433458

Leia's dialogue at the end there is exactly how she phrases it in the movie: to find a new base.

Any other poorly-founded criticism from some YouTube genius I can address now? Or, should I just wait until the next inevitable one gets posted where bad assumptions are made and actual movie context is distorted?

Ah yes the novelisation which is required reading to ensure that all Rian's little plot bloopers can be retroactively Jedi hand waved away... I love it when films aren't self contained and need supplementary reading to be understood.

I'm enjoying Khev's heel turn... I hope it lasts lol but I fear the pull of the cinematic ST conclusion will be too much for him ... At least by the first trailer drop.

 

[Khev]

I'm enjoying Khev's heel turn... I hope it lasts lol but I fear the pull of the cinematic ST conclusion will be too much for him ... At least by the first trailer drop.

I'm still "Team TLJ." I just enjoy TLJ the way I enjoy ROTJ. In other words I enjoy the Luke parts but a lot of the rest is pretty stupid, lol.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I don't think the film itself backs you this time ajp. The events and dialogue on-screen show the Resistance jumping into what would be revealed as the Crait System. Then Leia tells Finn that their plan is to find a new base with the means of broadcasting a signal throughout the galaxy. A base that is right there in the very system they jumped into.

The novel may indeed try to handwave away the ridiculousness of coming out of hyperspace too far from the planet to actually get there with their available fuel but such context isn't actually supported by the film itself. You really want to believe that Leia ordered everyone to rendezvous next to a perfectly good rebel base *that they are searching for* only to then preferably pick another base to jump to before being forced to go to the one right outside their window by the arrival of the FO? I suppose the novel gives that "out" but that's still a level of absurdity that I find to be pretty laughable. Absurdity on Leia's part, not yours.

The Resistance was coordinating an evacuation when the FO arrived. When they would be able to make their escape, they'd need to regroup and follow through with a coordinated next step. This was all in the aftermath of having destroyed Starkiller base, so they're on the run. A rendezvous point that is in the middle of nowhere is a logical idea to take the Resistance. They don't want to be spotted by the FO, or FO sympathizers. They would need to coordinate the next move in relative secrecy, right? And that old Alliance rendezvous point in the middle of nowhere was probably used for a similar purpose in the past. It would also be a pre-calculated hyperspace route. What's the flaw in logic that I'm missing from the story's point of view?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Ah yes the novelisation which is required reading to ensure that all Rian's little plot bloopers can be retroactively Jedi hand waved away... I love it when films aren't self contained and need supplementary reading to be understood.

With all due respect, I didn't need the novelization to make sense of the plot point. I used it only because I know that merely saying things without backing it up is generally a bad idea in TLJ discussions. I tried to save time from what would inevitably be an objection to pure "conjecture."

The movie didn't need the novel to have that scene make sense. The dialogue and context in the film were more than enough for me.

Edit to add: The novel represents nothing more than the screenplay and scripts being adapted for novelization (meaning adapted for format). Some things will no doubt be clearer in the novel because reading explicit intent is easier than interpreting context. When I use the novel in this thread, it is basically to provide something visual to represent the movie. It's sometimes easier for me to just take photos of novel pages than to hunt down a YouTube link to a movie scene.

But, now I'll likely limit how often I post pages from the novel because the objection made here about needing supplementary material to make sense of the movie is probably going to be a go-to deflection of my actual intent.

 

[Khev]

The Resistance was coordinating an evacuation when the FO arrived. When they would be able to make their escape, they'd need to regroup and follow through with a coordinated next step. This was all in the aftermath of having destroyed Starkiller base, so they're on the run. A rendezvous point that is in the middle of nowhere is a logical idea to take the Resistance. They don't want to be spotted by the FO, or FO sympathizers. They would need to coordinate the next move in relative secrecy, right? And that old Alliance rendezvous point in the middle of nowhere was probably used for a similar purpose in the past. It would also be a pre-calculated hyperspace route. What's the flaw in logic that I'm missing from the story's point of view?

Agreed. And that's what the film initially leads us to believe. However it is later revealed that they were never in fact "in the middle of nowhere" but were rather in exactly the type of system that they were heading toward in the first place.

Now I'm not saying that contrivances in a SW film are unforgivable. It was admittedly pretty freaking convenient that Cloud City was within striking distance of Hoth. However ESB did *not* have the Falcon taking off, and then Han initially telling Leia "now we just need to find a small mining colony to do some repairs" *before* the Empire showed up and then *poof* Cloud City, the exact location they were heading toward in the first place just magically appeared. That's an example of TLJ just taking it one contrivance too far IMO.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Khev, the whole movie takes place as the Raddus is in a space flight speed that is faster than than the cruising speed of the Star Destroyers. They're moving through space as Rose and Finn are traveling across the galaxy to have their stupid adventure (which takes time: casino time, horse racing time, getting thrown in jail, escaping, etc.). The Raddus didn't pull out of hyperspace next to Crait. It took a while to get close enough. I can't tell you how long in hours, but long enough for those other things to happen. The Raddus never stopped moving.

 

[Khev]

Yep, I know. But it was still sub-light movement which means relatively speaking they basically were right on top of Crait as far as galactic destinations are concerned. See my edit to my last post with the disconnect regarding the Raddus being chased off course vs. a similar situation with the Falcon in ESB for a better detail of why I have a hangup with it.

 

[Khev]

But, now I'll likely limit how often I post pages from the novel because the objection made here about needing supplementary material to make sense of the movie is probably going to be a go-to deflection of my actual intent.

While it is indeed a valid criticism of both TFA/TLJ that they rely far too much on outside media to fill in the blanks I don't mind you posting pages from the novels. I do think that such info can be valid in exploring context (assuming it doesn't contradict what's on screen which in my mind is the case for the discussion at hand.)

 

[xipotec]

I won't post the link but I just saw a video where someone called out the utter stupidity of the Resistance heading to Crait but jumping out of hyperspace so far from the planet that not one but *two* of their capital ships ran out of fuel before they could arrive?? Holy crap I never thought of that, lol. So if the FO never showed up they still would have abandoned two ships on their way to the planet? RJ really did make the FO and Resistance utterly idiotic in this film.

Compare that to the Empire dispersing bombers and bounty hunters to track the Falcon in ESB which led to them being able to anticipate (thanks to Fett) where Han was going and beat him to his destination.

They left in an emergency because the FO showed up.....they were escaping....so I doubt there was time to fuel up....

Plus I get the feeling Hyperspace is different than sub light as far as “fuel”.

They would have traveled in hyperspace all the way there, but couldn’t because they were being tracked that way.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

Yep, I know. But it was still sub-light movement which means relatively speaking they basically were right on top of Crait as far as galactic destinations are concerned. See my edit to my last post with the disconnect regarding the Raddus being chased off course vs. a similar situation with the Falcon in ESB for a better detail of why I have a hangup with it.

Okay. I'm not going to be able to convince you, but I'd just like to add one thing (and this is all only because I enjoy discussing this stuff with you - there's no antagonism intended on my part at all here): When Luke went to Dagobah, he traveled at sub-light speed, right (he took over controls from Artoo)? We don't know how long it took him to get there, but Hoth and Dagobah were far enough apart to make it an actual trek. The TLJ distance from the Alliance rendezvous point to Crait would likely be a comparable one. How long did Luke take? I don't know. How long was the Raddus's flight to Crait after leaving the rendezvous point? I don't know. But I don't see why I can't believe that sub-light travels can take you pretty far during the course of an entire film. After all, Luke went pretty far in much less screen time than the Raddus flight had.

 

[jal76]

Know what's even more ridiculous than the whole Crait thing...the fact that C3PO and R2D2 just happened to get picked up by the right group of Jawas on that huge planet who happened to be on their way to sell droids to...wait for it...Princess Leia's long lost brother...who happened to be neighbors with Obi Wan Kenobi...Tatooine isn't a city...it's a PLANET!!! Yet somehow TLJ seems to be the only Star Wars entry held to the standard of logical storytelling...

 

[YoNoSe]

This brand new phenomenon of over-analyzing SW is very concerning.

 

[xipotec]

Know what's even more ridiculous than the whole Crait thing...the fact that C3PO and R2D2 just happened to get picked up by the right group of Jawas on that huge planet who happened to be on their way to sell droids to...wait for it...Princess Leia's long lost brother...who happened to be neighbors with Obi Wan Kenobi...Tatooine isn't a city...it's a PLANET!!! Yet somehow TLJ seems to be the only Star Wars entry held to the standard of logical storytelling...

And they walked inside a giant slug in a vacuum....we were kids.....we didn’t care about the distance between planets....

The price of becoming old and cynical.

I dont think Luke “kept it manual for a while” the whole trip to Dagobah or Bespin.



Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

This brand new phenomenon of over-analyzing SW is very concerning.

The difference is that when we used to over-analyze and dissect SW films to point out logical flaws and inconsistencies, it wasn't with the intent of suggesting that those instances of questionable logic made them bad films. Or that those illogical instances made the characters within the film stupid. Or that the director was an *****. It was done in good humor.

Fans used to talk about Luke's crazy plan to rescue Han from Jabba (and the bizarre events surrounding it) in a different way. Fans talked about the stupidity it would take for Star Destroyers to crash into each other, but not to suggest that made the film any less enjoyable. Then the PT criticisms weren't mostly about nitpicky nonsense and instances of laughable logic; the crux of the criticism was the same as from the actual professional film critics: they were bad movies!

With TLJ, nitpicky **** regularly gets blown out of proportion to try and discredit the movie; often to the point of absurdity (and can almost always be refuted by actually paying close attention to the movie). Why? I don't get the endgame of that. I'm not saying that there aren't substantive and valid criticisms (as with most films), but what's with the obsessive effort to seek out things to latch onto in order to discredit a film that many (not just critics) thought was very well done?

I dont think Luke “kept it manual for a while” the whole trip to Dagobah or Bespin.

Yes, that is indeed a fair and logical assumption (even though we weren't shown anything on screen to know how long the "while" was). In any case, we're still talking about planetary systems here. When coming out of hyperspace, unless they'd actually have a planet be visible through a window, it's not entirely accurate to think of the nearest planet as being "right next door." Our sun is obviously close enough to see, but even at the speed of light, its rays take about 8 minutes to reach us. Again, that's at the speed of light!

Planetary distances are enormous when thinking about them relative to conventional speed. If aliens came out of hyperspace near our solar system, they'd see eight or nine planets on the tactical readout, but that wouldn't mean they pulled up "right next door" to one. It would take a while at sub-light speed to reach any of them. Especially if you can't actually see one "through the window" yet.

When I was watching TLJ, I assumed that Crait was just as equidistant from the Raddus as several other planets would be. Crait just happened to meet two criteria: 1.) it was an old Rebel base, and 2.) it was the closest one to be able to get the job done. For all we know, Leia and Ackbar would have chosen a different site than Crait (considering how run-down and desolate it was) if not for the unexpected urgency. Holdo chose Crait out of necessity due to proximity and lack of better options. They might've been closer to other planets, but those wouldn't have served their needs. Crait just happened to be the closest (in more ways than one) to being useful.

 

[Khev]

Okay. I'm not going to be able to convince you, but I'd just like to add one thing (and this is all only because I enjoy discussing this stuff with you - there's no antagonism intended on my part at all here): When Luke went to Dagobah, he traveled at sub-light speed, right (he took over controls from Artoo)? We don't know how long it took him to get there, but Hoth and Dagobah were far enough apart to make it an actual trek. The TLJ distance from the Alliance rendezvous point to Crait would likely be a comparable one. How long did Luke take? I don't know. How long was the Raddus's flight to Crait after leaving the rendezvous point? I don't know. But I don't see why I can't believe that sub-light travels can take you pretty far during the course of an entire film. After all, Luke went pretty far in much less screen time than the Raddus flight had.

Luke simply tells R2 that he'd like to keep it on manual control "for a while." I didn't interpret that to mean that he flew from one system to another at sub-light speed the entire way.

Know what's even more ridiculous than the whole Crait thing...the fact that C3PO and R2D2 just happened to get picked up by the right group of Jawas on that huge planet who happened to be on their way to sell droids to...wait for it...Princess Leia's long lost brother...who happened to be neighbors with Obi Wan Kenobi...Tatooine isn't a city...it's a PLANET!!! Yet somehow TLJ seems to be the only Star Wars entry held to the standard of logical storytelling...

That particular example is a retroactive contrivance introduced by ROTJ when it made Luke and Leia siblings. In 1977 Luke was just a random guy who happened to be friends with the person R2 was sending the message to.

 

[Khev]

The difference is that when we used to over-analyze and dissect SW films to point out logical flaws and inconsistencies, it wasn't with the intent of suggesting that those instances of questionable logic made them bad films. Or that those illogical instances made the characters within the film stupid. Or that the director was an *****. It was done in good humor...With TLJ, nitpicky **** regularly gets blown out of proportion to try and discredit the movie;...what's with the obsessive effort to seek out things to latch onto in order to discredit a film that many (not just critics) thought was very well done?

It seems that you're painting anyone who criticizes any aspect of TLJ, even an admitted fan of the film like myself, with the same wide brush of being just another obsessive nitpicky **** who will go to any length to discredit a movie that many fans and critics enjoyed. What got you so riled up?

 

[Khev]

This brand new phenomenon of over-analyzing SW is very concerning.

Next thing you know people will start pointing out differences in Vader's armor from film to film!

 

[jal76]

Luke simply tells R2 that he'd like to keep it on manual control "for a while." I didn't interpret that to mean that he flew from one system to another at sub-light speed the entire way.



That particular example is a retroactive contrivance introduced by ROTJ when it made Luke and Leia siblings. In 1977 Luke was just a random guy who happened to be friends with the person R2 was sending the message to.

That was the first one that popped into my mind. I could go on but you are clearly knowledgeable enough about Star Wars to know that we would be here for awhile...heck I am sure that 4 or 5 other examples probably popped into your head as you were replying to mine...Star Wars is awesome...but its reliance on overwhelming suspension of disbelief, coincidence, and some general story telling silliness did not start with TLJ.

 

[ajp4mgs]

It seems that you're painting anyone who criticizes any aspect of TLJ, even an admitted fan of the film like myself, with the same wide brush of being just another obsessive nitpicky **** who will go to any length to discredit a movie that many fans and critics enjoyed. What got you so riled up?

I'm sorry if that's how I'm coming across. I don't intend that as far as you're concerned. What's got me riled up is that every nitpicky **** that some YouTuber points out gets blown up way out of proportion (in my opinion only, obviously). In this case, we've been going back and forth about something that didn't come across to me in the movie as was being presented (first through the video you watched). Others chimed in having had the same viewing interpretation as I did, so I turned to the novel knowing that it would likely be more descriptive than the film which has to rely on the audience to pick up on context.

Again, I'm only using the novel because it's the closest thing we have to the actual script (that I'm aware of). The novel is based on the screenplay and scripts. I have no reason to believe that Rian Johnson's intent with the hyperspace jump was anything other than what I saw in the theater, and what was made explicitly clear in the novel. I don't understand the impulse to dismiss the novel as some LFL/Johnson attempt to "cover up" a plot hole. I guess when the actual script gets published, I'll have a better leg to stand on.

In general, I'm just tired of this film being treated differently by the fans than not only other SW films, but virtually every other franchise film. My problem isn't with you, Khev. Trust me! It just irks me every time I come across another criticism that I think is directly refuted by the film (and backed up by supplementary material).

 

[Mad Old Lu]

First off, let me say that I think ajp deserves some kind of medal for almost single handedly going up against all the TLJ haters, like Poe on his lone X Wing against the dreadnought!

The difference is that when we used to over-analyze and dissect SW films to point out logical flaws and inconsistencies, it wasn't with the intent of suggesting that those instances of questionable logic made them bad films. Or that those illogical instances made the characters within the film stupid. Or that the director was an *****. It was done in good humor.

Fans used to talk about Luke's crazy plan to rescue Han from Jabba (and the bizarre events surrounding it) in a different way. Fans talked about the stupidity it would take for Star Destroyers to crash into each other, but not to suggest that made the film any less enjoyable. Then the PT criticisms weren't mostly about nitpicky nonsense and instances of laughable logic; the crux of the criticism was the same as from the actual professional film critics: they were bad movies!

With TLJ, nitpicky **** regularly gets blown out of proportion to try and discredit the movie; often to the point of absurdity (and can almost always be refuted by actually paying close attention to the movie). Why? I don't get the endgame of that. I'm not saying that there aren't substantive and valid criticisms (as with most films), but what's with the obsessive effort to seek out things to latch onto in order to discredit a film that many (not just critics) thought was very well done?

Great post! I agree. That's what puzzles me most about the TLJ criticism. Can they not see how forgiving they are to gaffes in the OT but not to the sequels? I completely understand simply not liking a movie. But to pick them apart for things that the OT is equally guilty of is frustrating. Not to mention, like you said, picking on things that are explained onscreen but that they simply missed or misconstrued.

It seems that you're painting anyone who criticizes any aspect of TLJ, even an admitted fan of the film like myself, with the same wide brush of being just another obsessive nitpicky **** who will go to any length to discredit a movie that many fans and critics enjoyed. What got you so riled up?

I don't think ajp is lumping you in with that group. You seem to temper your criticisms about TLJ in the same way he described, in a good natured way, and coming from a place of love.

Next thing you know people will start pointing out differences in Vader's armor from film to film!

Yes, that illustrates ajp's point in that most fans can easily overlook certain things, or even come up with elaborate explanations, but refuse to give the same slack to TLJ.

That was the first one that popped into my mind. I could go on but you are clearly knowledgeable enough about Star Wars to know that we would be here for awhile...heck I am sure that 4 or 5 other examples probably popped into your head as you were replying to mine...Star Wars is awesome...but its reliance on overwhelming suspension of disbelief, coincidence, and some general story telling silliness did not start with TLJ.

Good post!