Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[ajp4mgs]

Since Luke could apparently alter the appearance of his projection in any way he saw fit did he really make the best choice?

Why not step out of the base as an indestructible Supreme Leader Snoke? Announce to the First Order that he has eradicated the Resistance and then order the FO that Kylo Ren and Hux need to be executed for High Treason and have all the AT-AT's blow Kylo's shuttle out of the sky. Then instruct the remaining officers that the FO is officially over and to permanently disband.

Even if Luke knew what Snoke looked like (and knew that Snoke was dead at that point . . . and knew who the hell Hux even was), I'm guessing that most of the FO would question Snoke asking anyone for help in offing Kylo and Hux. And getting his army to unilaterally turn on Hux would also probably be a tall order. Especially with Hux already having made clear to that army that they would be loyal to Kylo going forward.

On a serious note, though: I wonder how many of the FO actually know what Snoke looked like. Palpatine was clearly in the public eye as he transformed the Republic into the Empire; but Snoke was working in the shadows. He probably had to address the collective FO from time to time, but I'm not sure we'll ever get anymore Snoke stories to clear that stuff up.

 

[chemicals]

I enjoy the new SW movies, naturally I don’t hold them close to my heart like the OT (40+ here folks). I don’t plan on watching anytime soon as winter time is reserved for my LOTR & HOBBIT marathons. However when I do revisit the Disney SW world, TLJ will be first in the line-up. The movie is so "against the grain”, against what “my Star Wars should be” filled with new idea’s it draws me in each and every time. Sure there are many things that still bug me today about it but I have no choice to put it in the “It is what it is” category and move on.

I wonder how E9 will be now under JJ? Will it be fun and entertaining? Will people love it right out of the gate saying “That’s my Star Wars”, but turn around two plus years later saying it was just OK or it sucks now. In many ways I wish RJ directed E9 and fill it with more WTF moments questioning my understanding of SW and pushing boundaries further. Remember initially you may not like TLJ but as the years go by (5, 10 40 years) the evens of TLJ become SW lore!! It becomes our SW.

Solo would be last on the list. I really enjoyed the movie but the Picture Quality turns me off. Ruins my experience.

Every single Star Wars movie that comes is initially bashed endlessly no matter what. This is nothing new whatsoever, even back in 1980 with Empire, then 1983 with Return of the Jedi, then the Special Editions, then the prequels, then the sequels. So on and so on. However now with the internet, its much more prevalent than the 80s. Many quoted Return of the Jedi as ruining Star Wars forever, well look at where we are now. Every new film thats released "ruins star wars" according to some people.

I assume you're referring to the overall dark tones in the cinematography, many theaters projectors are not properly calibrated which is why many people complained about that. I noticed it as well, however at home its a lot better. Its still dark but not as bad as some theaters appeared it to be.

 

[chemicals]

Since Luke could apparently alter the appearance of his projection in any way he saw fit did he really make the best choice?

Why not step out of the base as an indestructible Supreme Leader Snoke? Announce to the First Order that he has eradicated the Resistance and then order the FO that Kylo Ren and Hux need to be executed for High Treason and have all the AT-AT's blow Kylo's shuttle out of the sky. Then instruct the remaining officers that the FO is officially over and to permanently disband.

Because Ben and Hux knew he was dead? And how would him coming out of the base randomly?

Luke stepping out and being the hero the galaxy needed him to be was pretty badass in my eyes.

 

[Bo Shrek]

Every single Star Wars movie that comes is initially bashed endlessly no matter what. This is nothing new whatsoever, even back in 1980 with Empire, then 1983 with Return of the Jedi, then the Special Editions, then the prequels, then the sequels. So on and so on. However now with the internet, its much more prevalent than the 80s. Many quoted Return of the Jedi as ruining Star Wars forever, well look at where we are now. Every new film thats released "ruins star wars" according to some people.

I assume you're referring to the overall dark tones in the cinematography, many theaters projectors are not properly calibrated which is why many people complained about that. I noticed it as well, however at home its a lot better. Its still dark but not as bad as some theaters appeared it to be.

I have to disagree with you there. Empire and Jedi blew me away in theatres and everyone I knew back in the day from kids my age to our parents who took us!!

 

[Khev]

Because Ben and Hux knew he was dead? And how would him coming out of the base randomly?

Luke appearing as Snoke would have freaked the hell out of Kylo Ren in particular as well as every member of the FO who suddenly saw with their own eyes that their leader was so powerful that he could rise from the dead.

Luke stepping out and being the hero the galaxy needed him to be was pretty badass in my eyes.

Absolutely. And I still love the scene. But when Luke projected himself in the Dark Empire comics he didn't change his own appearance. Allowing him to do that on screen *does* open up a bit of a can of worms. Even if he *could* have appeared as Snoke I'm fine with him using his own likeness as a means to communicate with Leia prior to the duel, but tactically I don't know that I'd say it was the best move to end the conflict.

 

[punisher1974]

When Luke projected himself in Dark Empire he looked the same only he made himself bigger didn't he. I haven't read it in 15 years or so. He used the projection to attack Han right?

 

[Khev]

When Luke projected himself in Dark Empire he looked the same only he made himself bigger didn't he. I haven't read it in 15 years or so. He used the projection to attack Han right?

Not to my recollection. He had unfinished business on a far planet and he didn't want to put Han and Leia in danger so his projection boarded the Falcon and he didn't reveal that he wasn't really there until they were deep in hyperspace.

 

[chewblacca]

I think that if Luke had a ship available to him he would have flown to Crait and taken on the first order personally. The force projection was all he could do to help his sister.

 

[a-dev]

Did Luke actually turn to the dark side in Dark Empire? I never actually read that. The only EU I read was the initial Zahn trilogy and the Jedi Academy trilogy.

 

[Khev]

Did Luke actually turn to the dark side in Dark Empire? I never actually read that. The only EU I read was the initial Zahn trilogy and the Jedi Academy trilogy.

That's kind of the big "tease" of the series but if I remember correctly he only temporarily feigned allegiance to one of Palpatine's clones in order to get close enough to wipe out all the remaining cloning chambers as well as Palpatine's elite guard. I'm a bit hazy on the specifics myself, I might just dust them off and give 'em another read.

 

[a-dev]

That's kind of the big "tease" of the series but if I remember correctly he only temporarily feigned allegiance to one of Palpatine's clones in order to get close enough to wipe out all the remaining cloning chambers as well as Palpatine's elite guard. I'm a bit hazy on the specifics myself, I might just dust them off and give 'em another read.

I was going to offer the point that Luke actually turning to the dark side would seem more of a crime against his character (according to what has been argued that his character was/should be) than his lack of action in TFA/TLJ. Although if he never actually turned to the dark side it's probably moot.

Either way I still don't like what has been presented by the sequel trilogy. Luke shmook, there's too many other things I don't like so even if I were to be fully on board with Luke I'm still left with the fact I quite simply hate this resistance VS First Order thing; I hate Starkiller base, I hate that Han and Leia's only child turned evil and killed Han etc etc

Except he still ran away after Kylo destroyed the new Jedi temple, leaving him and The First Order free to acquire power at their leisure.

Agreed. But TFA had already established that pretty clearly. It was an unavoidable problem for whoever would write TLJ and have to explain why Luke left for so long, letting Snoke and Kylo rise to power. It was basically inheriting a catch-22 situation after the setup from TFA. Many fans understood this before any of us got to even see TLJ.

So your defense, by your own admission, does not have a counter to the point that I've made and that ShadowX81 is also making here. This is where I was going to offer the suggestion on your side that, OK, Luke ran away, but is that worse than him turning to the dark side and being actively villainous in the EU - if that ever happened...which it may not have.

 

[Khev]

Didn't the original EU have one of Han and Leia's kids turning evil and killing Luke's wife? So even the Lucas-approved continuation of the OT got pretty dark.

I do admit that much of my love of TFA/TLJ comes from seeing the "gang getting back together" even if they didn't all actually share a single scene together, seeing Ford's desired end for his character *finally play out on screen,* the pre-movie hype (the lead up to TFA was one of the most exciting times in all of SW fandom IMO and I do believe that the film ultimately delivered on said hype) and the joy of experiencing well shot, well acted, and for the most part well told films with my kids and an enthusiastic crowd.

If I ignore all of that and just look at only how satisfying the actual story of TFA and TLJ are for my favorite cinematic heroes then I agree with a-dev that they missed the mark in some pretty significant ways. But all of the above plus the fact that I don't think that any of the big three characters were "tainted" make me more forgiving of the ST than the PT and why I'm not so passionate about "decanonizing" them in my own mind.

 

[ajp4mgs]

So your defense, by your own admission, does not have a counter to the point that I've made and that ShadowX81 is also making here.

Correct. I can't counter your objection to Luke leaving everyone to fend for themselves; especially since it was clear that he did so for years. It's one of the two things I hated about TFA (Han abandoning Leia and then being killed the way he was being the other). For me, there's nothing TLJ could have done to erase the fact that the same Luke who had dropped something personally important on Dagobah to help his friends, and had further postponed his personal quest in order to rescue Han from Jabba, was the guy that TFA said continued to stay away while he would've sensed the clear danger to those very same friends.

What I've said, and will say again right now, is that TLJ gave me a reason I can accept for Luke having stayed away. I still think taking Luke off the board in the first place was a bad idea, but when Rian Johnson decided to have Luke cut himself off from the Force, he saved the ST for me (as far as Luke is concerned). Without that element, I would never have accepted Luke staying away - as he would easily have sensed all the tragedy that played itself out in TFA. When RJ told JJ to change the last scene so that Luke wasn't shown lifting rocks, he effectively salvaged Luke's ST story for me before I could even know it. Learning in TLJ that Luke was unaware of the level of devastation (and of Han dying) made his continued absence palatable to me.

And the explanation for being cut off from the Force (as part of wanting to end the Jedi) also connected well with me. It's important to remember that Luke grew up without a father (or mother) because the Jedi failed to keep Anakin as an instrument for good. They brought all that power out of Anakin, only to fail him and allow tragedy to unfold. And having Luke realize that he'd failed in the same way with Ben (and that this cycle could just continue repeating itself) made Luke's exile not only acceptable to me, but actually turned it into a compelling storyline that brought Luke's journey full circle.

I want to be clear that I really enjoyed TFA, though. More importantly, I'm very grateful to JJ for bringing the enjoyable Star Wars cinematic experience back to me after the wretched one I had with the prequels. My biggest problems with TFA were Han and Luke. TLJ fixed the Luke problem for me. Now my biggest regret is only how Han ended up. Rey's uber abilities without having ever been exposed to Jedi is something that's still tough for me to fully accept, but I can reconcile it enough to not be overly concerned with it.

This is where I was going to offer the suggestion on your side that, OK, Luke ran away, but is that worse than him turning to the dark side and being actively villainous in the EU - if that ever happened...which it may not have.

Like Khev, I'm going to have to dust off that old Dark Empire tpb and double-check. I'm pretty sure that Luke turned to the dark side at the end, and had to be brought back to the light side by Leia. But, I never really liked that series, so I won't pretend to have a reliable memory about it.

But Luke turning to the dark side was in play with George Lucas. Most fans know that he had that as a possible sequel trilogy storyline. And back in the EU days, Lucas had to approve the various stories/projects. I can definitely see GL giving his okay to a story where Luke turns to the dark side. There are many ways that he showed how the Luke apple didn't fall far from the Anakin tree. Luke's a complicated character; and that's why he'll always be an all-time favorite of mine.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

I do find it interesting to read a-dev's and Khev's comments. I think they illustrate how fans really do want different things from a SW movie. I've seen and read countless of things talking about this very idea and it's fascinating to see it play out here.

Khev, you have pretty much outright said that you wanted to see the old gang back together. And a-dev, you hinted at it, by saying how much you hated how they treated Han and Leia, implying that the portrayal of the old gang is important in how much you liked or rather didn't like the movie(s).

For me personally, the old gang isn't that much of a consideration for me. That's not to say that I'm dismissive of the sequels and only think of them as tangent stories that don't have anything to do with the originals, like the ewok movies or something. Because I don't. I do hold these with the same regard as I do the originals and see them as an important continuation of that story.

But I guess I'm not as precious about the characters as I suppose many of the fans are. That doesn't mean I don't love the SW universe, because I do. Like most here, I spend thousands on these silly action figures, plus I usually get most, if not all, the "art of" books, and behind the scenes books and magazines, music, etc. I love SW. I know it shouldn't matter, and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't, but it does sting when the haters yell that no "real" fans would like TLJ.

Anyway, I'm not that precious about the characters and am ok with seeing them portrayed with flaws, and grown in different directions than I would have imagined. As you can tell by my signature here, I'm a Han guy, so my disappointment in how the character was portrayed came in 1983 when Han emerged from Carbonite as a fat bumbling clown (likewise, my disappointment in how the Indy character was portrayed came in the Last Crusade and not in Crystal Skull). However, I don't think anything that was shown in TFA made me feel any less affection for Han. I personally LOVE how he was, and definitely was a HUGE step up from ROTJ. Yes, it was sad to see him die, but I feel like he had a great journey. I have no problems knowing he failed as a father and as a husband. 40 years is a long time and so much happened in that time that I can imagine it's not as simple as "Han was a bad dad and husband". Who knows, Han and Leia could have broken up and gotten back together dozens of times--that seems to be in character of those two who were always bickering.

TBH Luke as a character never did much for me and I always found him kinda dull and boring. He became even more boring to me in Jedi, since he (I feel) suddenly started behaving much more stoic and reserved. So I personally feel that TLJ gave him some much needed dimension and texture in his character. Although I'll add that ajp has helped me see OT Luke in a better light, as he has pointed out that Luke has always had similar inner conflicts within himself.

I have been really enjoying the new movies (except for Rogue One--sorry Khev!). I think they're far better than I could have hoped, and far better than what Lucas would have done (based on his prequels and Crystal Skull). Even RO, as little as I like it, I still think is infinitely better than the prequels. All the complaints and the points of contention for TLJ don't bother me much if at all. The movie just simply plays out like any other good/great movie. That's all I want--just a good movie that makes me smile as I watch it, has characters that I like and like to see what they do, and makes me eager to watch again. Maybe I'm at an age where I've seen it all and know that not much is going to affect me the way those originals did way back when I was young. But I can still enjoy them thoroughly and unabashedly.

 

[Khev]

Great post Mad Old Lu and yes I laughed at your RO comment, lol.

I also am fine with the Saga moving on from Han, Luke, and Leia and I did genuinely like how all three were portrayed hence my comment about not feeling that TFA and TLJ "tainted" their characters. I think that all three characters have been suitably cool and heroic but the sentimental side of me does sympathize with fans put off by the overall sadness that befell each character in their later years.

I'm okay with it because I know that SW has always flirted with being bittersweet, dark, and tragic and I appreciate the filmmakers finally exploring that onscreen without being vetoed by Lucas (who forbade Han or Lando dying in ROTJ to the chagrin of Ford and Kasdan, respectively.)

 

[Prime Clone]

In Dark Empire Luke joined the Emperor in an attempt to bring him down from within. He then then felt the dark side starting to consume him.

Speaking of attacking Han, Han actually threatened to kill Luke when he thought Leia and her unborn child were in danger. That was a bigger WTF moment for me than Luke and Kylo in TLJ.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Anyway, I'm not that precious about the characters and am ok with seeing them portrayed with flaws, and grown in different directions than I would have imagined. As you can tell by my signature here, I'm a Han guy, so my disappointment in how the character was portrayed came in 1983 when Han emerged from Carbonite as a fat bumbling clown (likewise, my disappointment in how the Indy character was portrayed came in the Last Crusade and not in Crystal Skull). However, I don't think anything that was shown in TFA made me feel any less affection for Han. I personally LOVE how he was, and definitely was a HUGE step up from ROTJ. Yes, it was sad to see him die, but I feel like he had a great journey. I have no problems knowing he failed as a father and as a husband. 40 years is a long time and so much happened in that time that I can imagine it's not as simple as "Han was a bad dad and husband". Who knows, Han and Leia could have broken up and gotten back together dozens of times--that seems to be in character of those two who were always bickering.

I'm okay with it because I know that SW has always flirted with being bittersweet, dark, and tragic and I appreciate the filmmakers finally exploring that onscreen without being vetoed by Lucas (who forbade Han or Lando dying in ROTJ to the chagrin of Ford and Kasdan, respectively.)

I really enjoyed reading both of those posts, Mad Old Lu and Khev! In particular, and with respect to the parts I'm quoting above, you're both making me wonder if I should re-evaluate how harshly I knock TFA for how Han ended up.

The fractured romantic relationship with Leia isn't a big deal since that happens a lot in everyday life, and it's perfectly fine in that context. But Han abandoning Leia in terms of leaving her to lead a Resistance without him? That's a different deal. Han knew how much help he was to the Rebellion, so him choosing the smuggler's life again instead of helping Leia's Resistance is a high hurdle for me to jump.

But nothing equals my disappointment with how the Han character was killed off. Even if it had to happen under the exact same set of circumstances, why not at least have Han hold onto the detanator? Starkiller base couldn't be destroyed without those explosives going off, so if Han had to die, I don't understand why he wasn't the one pulling the trigger as he fell. Having everything depend on him, and then he finds the strength and presence of mind to perform one last heroic deed as he dies - would've been a nice symbolic gesture, imo. Oh well. It probably bothers me more than it should.

In Dark Empire Luke joined the Emperor in an attempt to bring him down from within. He then then felt the dark side starting to consume him.

Yeah, Luke's "dark side turn" wasn't really one at all, and certainly not the way I was remembering it. I couldn't even find my tpb copy (which speaks to my regard for this story ), but I read through the last issue again online. The dark side stuff pretty much only lasted these three pages, and never actually took hold of Luke:

 

[xipotec]

I really enjoyed reading both of those posts, Mad Old Lu and Khev! In particular, and with respect to the parts I'm quoting above, you're both making me wonder if I should re-evaluate how harshly I knock TFA for how Han ended up.

The fractured romantic relationship with Leia isn't a big deal since that happens a lot in everyday life, and it's perfectly fine in that context. But Han abandoning Leia in terms of leaving her to lead a Resistance without him? That's a different deal. Han knew how much help he was to the Rebellion, so him choosing the smuggler's life again instead of helping Leia's Resistance is a high hurdle for me to jump.

But nothing equals my disappointment with how the Han character was killed off. Even if it had to happen under the exact same set of circumstances, why not at least have Han hold onto the detanator? Starkiller base couldn't be destroyed without those explosives going off, so if Han had to die, I don't understand why he wasn't the one pulling the trigger as he fell. Having everything depend on him, and then he finds the strength and presence of mind to perform one last heroic deed as he dies - would've been a nice symbolic gesture, imo. Oh well. It probably bothers me more than it should.



Yeah, Luke's "dark side turn" wasn't really one at all, and certainly not the way I was remembering it. I couldn't even find my tpb copy (which speaks to my regard for this story ), but I read through the last issue again online. The dark side stuff pretty much only lasted these three pages, and never actually took hold of Luke:

View attachment 434020

View attachment 434021

View attachment 434022

Well, I actually saw Han’s “fall” as an escape mechanism for dealing with what I assume they all knew.

Kylo was going bad.

Leia, busy with the resistance, was probably too busy for Kylo and shoved him off on Uncle Luke. Han, not able to cope with his troubled son, ran back to the bachelor life in search of an escape, like Leia burying herself in the comforts of what she knew for years.

I was hoping for more clarification on this theory of mine in TLJ. Kylos decent into darkness was only hastened by parents to busy to support him emotionally. It would have been quite a statement in this era of mass shooting committed by kids.

Left to deal with his abandonment issues by himself and by an Uncle who likely was too busy for him as well, and pushed him harder than other student due to the Skywalker family Legacy.....

Thats the story i was hoping for.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[Khev]

I really enjoyed reading both of those posts, Mad Old Lu and Khev!

In particular, and with respect to the parts I'm quoting above, you're both making me wonder if I should re-evaluate how harshly I knock TFA for how Han ended up.

The fractured romantic relationship with Leia isn't a big deal since that happens a lot in everyday life, and it's perfectly fine in that context. But Han abandoning Leia in terms of leaving her to lead a Resistance without him? That's a different deal. Han knew how much help he was to the Rebellion, so him choosing the smuggler's life again instead of helping Leia's Resistance is a high hurdle for me to jump.

Leia was allied with an entire star system containing fleets of ships with which to counter any new threats. I always got the impression that the FO didn't actually control any planets outside of the desolate Skarkiller Base so Han's singular presence wasn't really needed for anything. Of course that all changed when he witnessed with his own eyes what the FO was capable and at that point he immediately joined the fight.

But nothing equals my disappointment with how the Han character was killed off. Even if it had to happen under the exact same set of circumstances, why not at least have Han hold onto the detanator? Starkiller base couldn't be destroyed without those explosives going off, so if Han had to die, I don't understand why he wasn't the one pulling the trigger as he fell. Having everything depend on him, and then he finds the strength and presence of mind to perform one last heroic deed as he dies - would've been a nice symbolic gesture, imo. Oh well. It probably bothers me more than it should.

I'll respectfully disagree on this one as well but you're definitely not alone on Han's demise. I thought it *was* suitably heroic because the rescue of Rey and planting of the detonators was *all* him. He landed the Falcon at lightspeed and he could have then escaped with Rey (mission accomplished) before deciding to go off script and plant the detonators himself. If he hadn't circled back to do that then the Resistance would have been wiped out (way to ruin Han's sacrifice TLJ Poe! ) and Starkiller would have never been destroyed.

Pressing the detonator button would have been a mere formality after his previous heroics and I think it would have somewhat taken away from the shock and outrage that we were supposed to feel toward Kylo and share with Rey as we cheered her on during the final duel.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Leia was allied with an entire star system containing fleets of ships with which to counter any new threats. I always got the impression that the FO didn't actually control any planets outside of the desolate Skarkiller Base so Han's singular presence wasn't really needed for anything. Of course that all changed when he witnessed with his own eyes what the FO was capable and at that point he immediately joined the fight.

My understanding is that Leia formed the Resistance without official sponsorship or endorsement from the New Republic. Part of her intent was to take on the FO preemptively in order to keep them from gaining control. Wouldn't that mean she'd have no backing from Republic fleets to support her pro-active missions in a campaign against the FO?

If that's the case, then Han's potential value (even as an ace pilot like Poe) to Leia's tiny group would be even more magnified than his value had been to the larger Alliance/Rebellion. Even Maz told Han that he was the one who needed to deliver BB-8; because he should go back home and get in "the fight." And the whole reason Leia was dedicating resources to finding Luke is that she needed help. Han apparently just chose not to help. He wasn't just absent as far as protecting Leia, but absent as far as protecting a peace they'd all struggled so much to secure.

I'll respectfully disagree on this one as well but you're definitely not alone on Han's demise. I thought it *was* suitably heroic because the rescue of Rey and planting of the detonators was *all* him. He landed the Falcon at lightspeed and he could have then escaped with Rey (mission accomplished) before deciding to go off script and plant the detonators himself. If he hadn't circled back to do that then the Resistance would have been wiped out (way to ruin Han's sacrifice TLJ Poe! ) and Starkiller would have never been destroyed.

First of all, I gotta know: is your distaste for Poe in danger of approaching Rose levels? Ya keep knockin' the poor guy.

As far as Han, you're absolutely right that everything Han did with respect to Starkiller was heroic. And that even includes his decision to confront his son face to face. But every time I get close to being content with Han's ending, I ultimately can't get around the fact that one of the most iconic characters in cinema history was taken out with abject sadness as his final emotion - instead of with at least some token note of final heroic purpose and satisfaction. Which leads to . . .

Pressing the detonator button would have been a mere formality after his previous heroics and I think it would have somewhat taken away from the shock and outrage that we were supposed to feel toward Kylo and share with Rey as we cheered her on during the final duel.

I agree about the formality of pressing the button, but that mere symbolic gesture alone would have changed our view of Han's final thoughts and feelings. Instead of dying with nothing but devastated sadness, the mere act of pressing that button as he fell would have conveyed a sense of resolve - and a feeling for more than just the overwhelming negative. It would have told us, "yeah Han is devastated as he dies, but pressing that button means that it wasn't all-consuming for him . . . Han still had a mindset that allowed for wanting to accomplish something good."

Either way, what's done is done. TFA was still a much-needed return to fun SW cinema with competent acting, writing, dialogue, and cinematography. It was a great SW palate-cleanser for me, and much appreciated for being that. My wish for a different ending for Han doesn't take away from the positive aspects of TFA. It's purely a subjective thing, not anything along the lines of objective criticism.

My evolving appreciation for TLJ has also elevated TFA for me in the past year. I'm fully on board with the ST in spite of some issues that I wish were different. Just hoping IX doesn't go off the rails.