Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Khev]

That was the first one that popped into my mind. I could go on but you are clearly knowledgeable enough about Star Wars to know that we would be here for awhile...heck I am sure that 4 or 5 other examples probably popped into your head as you were replying to mine...Star Wars is awesome...but its reliance on overwhelming suspension of disbelief, coincidence, and some general story telling silliness did not start with TLJ.

Yes, there have always been contrivances, physics bending (and breaking) elements, questionable military tactics, and so on in Star Wars. However, speaking only for myself, whenever a contrivance pops up in a new film I tend to ask "is it any more offensive than what Lucas did with the OT?" And if the answer is no (which it often is) then I let it slide. If the answer is yes, then it tends to rub me the wrong way. So it isn't about demanding that new films be airtight with regard to characterizations, physics, or contrivances, it's just about the degrees.

A lot of TLJ's supposed shortcomings actually *do* get a pass from me simply because those same shortcomings can be attributed to the OT. For instance I've seen people complaining about Rey going through all these dark events in Snoke's throne room and then "suddenly" she's all smiles and enjoying herself blasting TIE's with the Falcon's turret guns. I guess I could let that bother me except for the fact that Luke was all smiles ("I got him!") sitting in *that exact same chair* after one of his last remaining friends in the galaxy got sliced down just minutes before. So I don't really sweat it in TLJ.

Other aspects of TLJ I *do* think were either ill-conceived or they stretched things too far and that's where my criticisms come in. It doesn't mean I hate the film or am outraged or want other people to hate it, only that I view it as a mixed bag with more good than bad, just like ROTJ.

 

[ajp4mgs]

First off, let me say that I think ajp deserves some kind of medal for almost single handedly going up against all the TLJ haters, like Poe on his lone X Wing against the dreadnought!

You made my day with that, my friend! And your timing was perfect; I have to get on with the rest of my day, but hated to leave here feeling like I'm always making more and more enemies just because I stand up for a film I have become immensely grateful for. Thank you very much, Mad Old Lu. Especially for the Poe comparison.

 

[Khev]

I don't think ajp is lumping you in with that group. You seem to temper your criticisms about TLJ in the same way he described, in a good natured way, and coming from a place of love.

Then how do you explain this private message he just sent me????

So help me Khev if you say one more negative thing about TLJ I will ****ing END you!

I kid, I kid...

 

[Mad Old Lu]

You made my day with that, my friend! And your timing was perfect; I have to get on with the rest of my day, but hated to leave here feeling like I'm always making more and more enemies just because I stand up for a film I have become immensely grateful for. Thank you very much, Mad Old Lu. Especially for the Poe comparison.

It's a well deserved kudos! You certainly have more brass and energy than I do, that's for sure! Thank you again for fighting the good fight!

Then how do you explain this private message he just sent me????



I kid, I kid...

 

[Khev]

It's a well deserved kudos! You certainly have more brass and energy than I do, that's for sure! Thank you again for fighting the good fight!

ajp does deserve kudos for being the best one here at fighting the good fight.

However...

"He hates Solo!!! You've got to tell them....he hates Solo!!!!"

 

[punisher1974]

I enjoyed Solo more than I thought I would. Decent flick overall.

 

[YoNoSe]

Khev is the Indy to my Belloq.

It would take just a nudge...

Though in this particular jungle it seems he speaks better Hovitos.

 

[Khev]

Khev is the Indy to my Belloq.

It would take just a nudge...

Now you're getting nasty.

 

[chemicals]

First off, let me say that I think ajp deserves some kind of medal for almost single handedly going up against all the TLJ haters, like Poe on his lone X Wing against the dreadnought!

Great post! I agree. That's what puzzles me most about the TLJ criticism. Can they not see how forgiving they are to gaffes in the OT but not to the sequels? I completely understand simply not liking a movie. But to pick them apart for things that the OT is equally guilty of is frustrating. Not to mention, like you said, picking on things that are explained onscreen but that they simply missed or misconstrued.



I don't think ajp is lumping you in with that group. You seem to temper your criticisms about TLJ in the same way he described, in a good natured way, and coming from a place of love.




Yes, that illustrates ajp's point in that most fans can easily overlook certain things, or even come up with elaborate explanations, but refuse to give the same slack to TLJ.



Good post!

Well I've stepped into the ring here, avoided threads like this due to the toxic nature of the fandom right now. However some will hate to hear it but it was always like this even when Empire was released. I have no problem with people giving constructive criticism. But raging constantly and attacking people for merely like a movie is so ridiculous. I even got messages on reddit from people I don't even know telling me what an Idiot I am for liking The Last Jedi so much.

 

[chemicals]

Where I agree with you is that TLJ did the best it could with what it had to work with and that, absolutely, TFA forced that problem on the sequel trilogy right from the start. I do not put the blame for this on Rian Johnson. Your explanation about how TLJ deals with the problem is great but for that one regrettably inescapable issue - that there was a huge threat in the here and now and Luke ran away from it while the people he cared most about were not able to also do so.

A further issue is would 'ending the Jedi' to stop the cycle of rising evil even work? Taking himself out of the equation wouldn't suddenly mean that there are no force-adept beings out there. And extensive training from Jedi teachers doesn't even seem to be a requirement anymore.....

For me, these sequels are just too much effort. It's easier to file them alongside the PT.

Another thing to add to that originally JJ was going to have rocks floating around Luke at the end of The Force Awakens and that Rian thought it didn't make sense to have Luke on the island alone and ignoring what was happening. So Rian had the idea to cut him off from the force so that people wouldn't get the false idea that Luke was somehow cruel. He simply didn't know.

 

[ShadowX81]

Great post! I agree. That's what puzzles me most about the TLJ criticism. Can they not see how forgiving they are to gaffes in the OT but not to the sequels? I completely understand simply not liking a movie. But to pick them apart for things that the OT is equally guilty of is frustrating. Not to mention, like you said, picking on things that are explained onscreen but that they simply missed or misconstrued.

On the whole people tend to be more forgiving of scientific inaccuracies needed for the fantasy world to work (the force isn't real either) than stupid characters that make baffling decisions in order to force the story towards a certain point. Even less forgivable is when these characters were more likeable or genuine in previous installments. It makes the whole world feel artificial and unnatural.

That particular example is a retroactive contrivance introduced by ROTJ when it made Luke and Leia siblings. In 1977 Luke was just a random guy who happened to be friends with the person R2 was sending the message to.

Not really. Even then Luke's dad was a former Jedi knight who had a personal relationship with Darth Vader. Luke was never just some random kid. He always had an important connection with the major events in the galaxy.

 

[Prime Clone]

There are many complaints about not getting to see Jedi Master Luke at the peak of his powers (a la Dark Empire), but with Force projection RJ actually gave us the closest thing we could hope for without relying on flashbacks (which would have caused complaints also).

My only complaint is that the duel with Kylo didn't last longer.

 

[Bo Shrek]

I enjoy the new SW movies, naturally I don’t hold them close to my heart like the OT (40+ here folks). I don’t plan on watching anytime soon as winter time is reserved for my LOTR & HOBBIT marathons. However when I do revisit the Disney SW world, TLJ will be first in the line-up. The movie is so "against the grain”, against what “my Star Wars should be” filled with new idea’s it draws me in each and every time. Sure there are many things that still bug me today about it but I have no choice to put it in the “It is what it is” category and move on.

I wonder how E9 will be now under JJ? Will it be fun and entertaining? Will people love it right out of the gate saying “That’s my Star Wars”, but turn around two plus years later saying it was just OK or it sucks now. In many ways I wish RJ directed E9 and fill it with more WTF moments questioning my understanding of SW and pushing boundaries further. Remember initially you may not like TLJ but as the years go by (5, 10 40 years) the evens of TLJ become SW lore!! It becomes our SW.

Solo would be last on the list. I really enjoyed the movie but the Picture Quality turns me off. Ruins my experience.

 

[ShadowX81]

There are many complaints about not getting to see Jedi Master Luke at the peak of his powers (a la Dark Empire), but with Force projection RJ actually gave us the closest thing we could hope for without relying on flashbacks (which would have caused complaints also).

Why was that the closest we could have hoped for? Couldn't Luke have actually showed up and kicked some first order ass in a triumphant action scene?

 

[ajp4mgs]

Why was that the closest we could have hoped for? Couldn't Luke have actually showed up and kicked some first order ass in a triumphant action scene?

Maybe because if Luke had come back to kick some First Order ass, he would've seemed kinda dopey having to explain to Leia why he stayed away for years, left her to mount her own fledgling resistance, and let the First Order grow into a much bigger threat. Also having to explain why he didn't rush back after sensing that multiple planets were destroyed, billions had been killed, and Han had been murdered. The dialogue might have gone a little something like this:

Leia: "Dammit Luke, aren't you a Jedi Master!? Haven't you spent the last 30 years honing your mastery of the Force!? You had to have been sensing the darkness rising within the First Order. You had to sense all those lives being lost. Why didn't you at least reach out to me to offer your condolences over Han?"

Luke: "I was busy lifting rocks with the Force when Rey showed up. She showed me dad's lightsaber, so that's when I knew it was time to get back in the fight. But, yeah, sorry about Han and stuff."

Leia: "Aren't you the guy who abandoned your training with Yoda because you could sense that Han and I were in trouble? Didn't you drop everything back then to help? Now, as a much wiser and more powerful Jedi Master, you didn't feel any urgency to come help!? Or even reach out to me!?"

Luke: "Well, when you put it that way . . . my bad. But look, I kicked some ass now, right? Same ol' Luke. This all makes sense, right? (Luke looks to the audience with a pleading expression on his face) . . . Right?"

 

[ShadowX81]

Maybe because if Luke had come back to kick some First Order ass, he would've seemed kinda dopey having to explain to Leia why he stayed away for years, left her to mount her own fledgling resistance, and let the First Order grow into a much bigger threat. Also having to explain why he didn't rush back after sensing that multiple planets were destroyed, billions had been killed, and Han had been murdered.

Unfortunately, all of that STILL remains a story problem weather nor not Luke comes back or not. And creating an unfulfilling resolution to Luke's story doesn't fix it.

I always thought it would have been much better had Kylo marooned Luke on that planet under the guise of him running away to study the first temple. Kylo used the light-side convergence of power on that planet to hide Luke's presence, and wanted to acquire the map in TFA not to find him himself, but prevent anyone from rescuing him knowing Luke was powerful enough to defeat him.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Unfortunately, all of that STILL remains a story problem weather nor not Luke comes back or not.

Not really. Explaining that Luke had cut himself off from the Force (and needing to provide a reason as to why) means that Luke didn't sense those lives being destroyed (including Han's). It also explains why he wasn't responding to Leia's trouble, her danger, or her sorrow.

I always thought it would have been much better had Kylo marooned Luke on that planet under the guise of him running away to study the first temple. Kylo used the light-side convergence of power on that planet to hide Luke's presence, and wanted to acquire the map in TFA not to find him himself, but prevent anyone from rescuing him knowing Luke was powerful enough to defeat him.

That would have taken some fancy writing to explain Snoke and Kylo's dialogue in TFA about finding Luke and preventing him from coming back to get in their way.

 

[ShadowX81]

Not really. Explaining that Luke had cut himself off from the Force (and needing to provide a reason as to why) means that Luke didn't sense those lives being destroyed (including Han's). It also explains why he wasn't responding to Leia's trouble, her danger, or her sorrow.

Except he still ran away after Kylo destroyed the new Jedi temple, leaving him and The First Order free to acquire power at their leisure.

Also once again, none of this is fixed by an unfulfilling fight scene that leads to Luke's death.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Except he still ran away after Kylo destroyed the new Jedi temple, leaving him free to acquire power.

Agreed. But TFA had already established that pretty clearly. It was an unavoidable problem for whoever would write TLJ and have to explain why Luke left for so long, letting Snoke and Kylo rise to power. It was basically inheriting a catch-22 situation after the setup from TFA. Many fans understood this before any of us got to even see TLJ.

Also once again, none of this is fixed by an unfulfilling fight scene that leads to Luke's death.

If it was unfulfilling to you (and others), nothing I can say will undo that. But the one thing that Luke's projection did do (to Prime Clone's point) was provide a way for Luke to have a scene that demonstrates his mastery of the Force, and what he could do, without having him return and undermine his initial decision to leave in the first place.

But, I do understand why you are unsatisfied with a projection of Luke. The difference between us is that I think TFA boxed Luke's character into a corner that would be hard to logically work out of.

 

[Khev]

Since Luke could apparently alter the appearance of his projection in any way he saw fit did he really make the best choice?

Why not step out of the base as an indestructible Supreme Leader Snoke? Announce to the First Order that he has eradicated the Resistance and then order the FO that Kylo Ren and Hux need to be executed for High Treason and have all the AT-AT's blow Kylo's shuttle out of the sky. Then instruct the remaining officers that the FO is officially over and to permanently disband.