Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

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My understanding is that Leia formed the Resistance without official sponsorship or endorsement from the New Republic. Part of her intent was to take on the FO preemptively in order to keep them from gaining control. Wouldn't that mean she'd have no backing from Republic fleets to support her pro-active missions in a campaign against the FO?

I didn't get that impression from TFA. From the opening scroll: "With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." After the Hosnian system is destroyed C-3PO exclaims "without the Republic fleet we are doomed!" So the film itself definitely led us to believe that the Republic was backing Leia (or at least a good portion of it if you go by the side novels that came out around the time that TFA was released.)

If that's the case, then Han's potential value (even as an ace pilot like Poe) to Leia's tiny group would be even more magnified than his value had been to the larger Alliance/Rebellion. Even Maz told Han that he was the one who needed to deliver BB-8; because he should go back home and get in "the fight." And the whole reason Leia was dedicating resources to finding Luke is that she needed help. Han apparently just chose not to help. He wasn't just absent as far as protecting Leia, but absent as far as protecting a peace they'd all struggled so much to secure.

Possibly, but I think that for me Han is a character who is allowed to be "emotionally compromised" to the point where it temporarily takes him out of the fight yet is still forgivable. Taking orders from his ex in a military campaign against his own son sounds pretty far beyond what I would expect his character to be able to handle. Even the mighty Aragorn took himself out of the fight for however many years due to his own emotional angst. To me those are flaws that add depth to their characters but don't ruin them.

First of all, I gotta know: is your distaste for Poe in danger of approaching Rose levels? Ya keep knockin' the poor guy. :lol

:lol

I think my distaste is more in how he was written in TLJ as opposed to simply not liking his character. Kind of like Han, Fett, and to a lesser extent Vader in ROTJ; all three of them were written in ways that really diminished how cool they were but I still like them. So Poe can still recover if Episode IX redeems him because I really liked him in TFA. :)

As far as Han, you're absolutely right that everything Han did with respect to Starkiller was heroic. And that even includes his decision to confront his son face to face. But every time I get close to being content with Han's ending, I ultimately can't get around the fact that one of the most iconic characters in cinema history was taken out with abject sadness as his final emotion - instead of with at least some token note of final heroic purpose and satisfaction. Which leads to . . .



I agree about the formality of pressing the button, but that mere symbolic gesture alone would have changed our view of Han's final thoughts and feelings. Instead of dying with nothing but devastated sadness, the mere act of pressing that button as he fell would have conveyed a sense of resolve - and a feeling for more than just the overwhelming negative. It would have told us, "yeah Han is devastated as he dies, but pressing that button means that it wasn't all-consuming for him . . . Han still had a mindset that allowed for wanting to accomplish something good."

Either way, what's done is done. TFA was still a much-needed return to fun SW cinema with competent acting, writing, dialogue, and cinematography. It was a great SW palate-cleanser for me, and much appreciated for being that. My wish for a different ending for Han doesn't take away from the positive aspects of TFA. It's purely a subjective thing, not anything along the lines of objective criticism.

I hear you, there's no getting around the fact that the great Han Solo's last few moments alive were spent feeling epic physical pain and emotional heartache. Definitely a tragic end.

One of the reasons I might be okay with that goes all the way back to the style of ESB's legendary "Gone with the Wind" poster with Han and Leia mimicking the poses of Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara. Do you remember how those characters' lives actually ended in GWTW? Their first child died when falling off a horse, their second child died of a miscarriage when Rhett pushed Scarlett down the stairs, they divorced, and then *don't* reconcile in their iconic final scene together. And while I've never particularly cared much for GWTW the film the relationship shared by the two main characters resonated with audiences for decades. And despite the summer (now Christmas) popcorn escapism of the SW Saga Han and Leia have never been too far removed from Rhett and Scarlett at least in my mind, so I can respect and even appreciate how things played out even if the sentimental side of me wishes things could have been different.
 
Thats the story i was hoping for.


Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

Why do you assume that they all gave up and/or ignored this kid? That would have been fairly destructive of each character involved.

Ren pursuing the dark side without recourse to cliched juvenile delinquent excuses is a lot more interesting.
 
I didn't get that impression from TFA. From the opening scroll: "With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." After the Hosnian system is destroyed C-3PO exclaims "without the Republic fleet we are doomed!" So the film itself definitely led us to believe that the Republic was backing Leia (or at least a good portion of it if you go by the side novels that came out around the time that TFA was released.)

I haven't read all of the side novels, so I'll defer to your knowledge on this subject. The ones that I did read suggested something entirely different to me than the Resistance having support and backing from the Republic.

In the novel "Bloodline," Leia is basically forced out of the Senate after they learned that Vader was her father. At the end of that novel, she starts forming her Resistance (to expose and undermine the FO) without any encouragement or endorsement from the Republic. Here's how that novel ends (pics are from the last two pages):

ResistanceExposition01.jpg

And in the junior novel, "Before the Awakening," this is how the Resistance is presented (from page 182):

ResistanceExposition02.jpg

So I'm totally lost as to how it went from the Republic refusing to take action against the First Order to the Republic backing Leia with military (or any other) support. Do you remember which books explain the Republic backing the Resistance? I'd like to read those before watching Episode IX (as long as they weren't written by Chuck Wendig).

I think my distaste is more in how he was written in TLJ as opposed to simply not liking his character. Kind of like Han, Fett, and to a lesser extent Vader in ROTJ; all three of them were written in ways that really diminished how cool they were but I still like them. So Poe can still recover if Episode IX redeems him because I really liked him in TFA. :)

I shouldn't have asked; your answer ended up indirectly knockin' ROTJ and TLJ . . . both of my 2nd-tier SW movies. Ouch. :lol

You and I could not have a more different view of how the Poe character has been presented. To me, TFA Poe was a one-note, paint-by-numbers, generic superhero type who always comes out ahead the same way in every situation. Resist torture that no one else would be able to resist? Check! Escape an inescapable situation? Check! Survive a death-defying scenario without much explanation? Check! Destroy a squadron of TIEs in a way that makes every previous OT Rebel pilot and every other ST Resistance pilot look utterly lame? Check! Lead the run that destroys a planet killer? Check! And do it all while calm, cool and collected? Check!

Conversely, I thought TLJ Poe actually came across as real. He got some layer and texture added over the paint-by-numbers characterization in TFA. He became more credible by becoming vulnerable and flawed, and he actually had a character arc that evolved instead of maintaining the same note.

On the other hand, it was Finn who I thought was written really well in TFA, but absolutely butchered (and incomprehensibly so) in TLJ. In general, these are the characters I thought were handled better in TFA: Finn, Maz, Hux, BB-8, and Chewbacca. And these I liked better in TLJ: Luke, Leia, C-3PO, R2-D2, Poe, Kylo, and Snoke. With Rey and Phasma, they stayed about the same to me.

I hear you, there's no getting around the fact that the great Han Solo's last few moments alive were spent feeling epic physical pain and emotional heartache. Definitely a tragic end.

One of the reasons I might be okay with that goes all the way back to the style of ESB's legendary "Gone with the Wind" poster with Han and Leia mimicking the poses of Rhett Butler and Scarlett O'Hara. Do you remember how those characters' lives actually ended in GWTW? Their first child died when falling off a horse, their second child died of a miscarriage when Rhett pushed Scarlett down the stairs, they divorced, and then *don't* reconcile in their iconic final scene together. And while I've never particularly cared much for GWTW the film the relationship shared by the two main characters resonated with audiences for decades. And despite the summer (now Christmas) popcorn escapism of the SW Saga Han and Leia have never been too far removed from Rhett and Scarlett at least in my mind, so I can respect and even appreciate how things played out even if the sentimental side of me wishes things could have been different.

I guess I should point out that I've never watched GWTW. And now I'm glad for that . . . seems like a major downer! ;)
 
I haven't read all of the side novels, so I'll defer to your knowledge on this subject. The ones that I did read suggested something entirely different to me than the Resistance having support and backing from the Republic.

Hold on, are you saying that the text of a side novel trumps the film itself? The opening crawl literally states "With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." So according to the film Leia has their support which includes their massive armada that was destroyed by Starkiller Base as stated by 3PO. Any novel approved by Pablo what's his name that contradicts that gets automatically overruled unless you're one who ignores the ST from your personal canon altogether.

But if you count TFA as canon then the film itself states plainly that Leia has their support and to what degree is up to the viewer since it doesn't specify any further than that. And if you allow for her to have the support of the Republic then you can allow Han to legitimately assume that she can take care of business without him. As for her searching for Luke, as far as Han knows she might just be searching for Luke in order to win back Kylo, an endeavor that Han stated point blank he felt he was ill equipped to handle. For all we know Han left a few years ago when the FO posed absolutely no widespread tactical threat and was just little more than a glorified organized crime syndicate or terrorist organization that had recruited his son.

I'm very perplexed about how you can give Poe Dameron a pass after he stages an uprising and sends an open mic radio broadcast that *directly leads to the deaths of 80% of the Resistance* but then be disgusted with Han who not only directly saves Rey (the ST's "Chosen One" and primary protagonist) but also the *entire Resistance* with his plan to set the detonators and blow open the Oscillator. I really can't wrap my head around the fact that you find the former situation to be an example of satisfying and realistic flaws while condemning Han for taking a break when it didn't matter and then joining the fight when it did??? To each his own I guess. ;)
 
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For what it's worth, guys ... I love reading this back and forth. You are both very knowledgeable about the source material and well-spoken, while not reducing yourselves to name-calling or hostility due to a difference of opinion. Keep it up ... it's appreciated!

:clap
 
For what it's worth, guys ... I love reading this back and forth. You are both very knowledgeable about the source material and well-spoken, while not reducing yourselves to name-calling or hostility due to a difference of opinion. Keep it up ... it's appreciated!

:clap

Sweet! :rock

These are actually among my personal favorite types of debates. Discussions that force me to pull up old books or to go back and take another peak at a certain scene, line of text, statement from the commentary, etc. I mean what's the point in having these discs, bonus features, books, etc., if we watch them once and are never prompted to review them again? :D

And obviously I can't prove that any given character's actions were good or bad since it's all preference but it's fun to make my case nevertheless, especially with the likes of ajp as you pointed out. :duff
 
Hold on, are you saying that the text of a side novel trumps the film itself? The opening crawl literally states "With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE." So according to the film Leia has their support which includes their massive armada that was destroyed by Starkiller Base as stated by 3PO. Any novel approved by Pablo what's his name that contradicts that gets automatically overruled unless you're one who ignores the ST from your personal canon altogether.

Not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is this: as far as I can tell, that line in the TFA opening crawl seems to be in direct conflict with much of the premise of that very same film, and the events that play out in it (and a deleted TFA scene, and its sequel, and several novels, and the visual dictionaries, and Wookieepedia, and so on). All of the existing ST material (that I'm aware of) points to Leia forming and leading an independent force to deal with the imminent threat of the First Order.

It's not just that everything outside of TFA very clearly shows that the Resistance was not being backed by the Republic . . . it's that TFA itself makes no sense (to me) if that wasn't the case. If Leia had the backing of the Senate and the Republic armies, she wouldn't be taking extreme risks with such an outmatched fighting force and such limited resources. She wouldn't be spending precious time and resources in trying to find Luke so that he could come back and help her take down the FO. She's only doing these things because the Republic isn't willing to engage the FO themselves.

Having the support of the Republic and its entire armada would have negated the purpose of the ragtag Resistance in the first place. The deleted TFA scene where Leia tells Korr Sella (who we learn about in the Bloodline novel) to go to the Senate and insist that the Republic take action against the FO speaks to this point. Leia's Resistance isn't working with the Republic, and has to resort to pleading for their involvement (to no avail). Their agendas aren't aligned. While the Republic isn't trying to stop Leia and her Resistance, they're certainly not backing them either. Especially not militarily; as none of the ST would even make any sense (imo) if they were.

As for her searching for Luke, as far as Han knows she might just be searching for Luke in order to win back Kylo, an endeavor that Han stated point blank he felt he was ill equipped to handle. For all we know Han left a few years ago when the FO posed absolutely no widespread tactical threat and was just little more than a glorified organized crime syndicate or terrorist organization that had recruited his son.

But when Han stated that, Leia makes it clear to him that Luke couldn't reach Ben because Luke isn't his father. She's not pinning her hopes on Luke to turn Ben; she's looking to Luke to help take down the FO. The entire context surrounding Leia's dialogue about Luke in TFA is with respect to having him help the outmatched Resistance (since the Republic isn't offering any help). That's the hope that Poe, the other Resistance fighters, and even Rey are all banking on at the end.


For all we know Han left a few years ago when the FO posed absolutely no widespread tactical threat and was just little more than a glorified organized crime syndicate or terrorist organization that had recruited his son.

This depends on your willingness to accept the novels. :chase

:lol

The Bloodline novel establishes that Han and Leia were still together 6 years prior to TFA, when she formed the Resistance and was keeping him updated on her discoveries. Han actually rescues her from certain death on one of her rebellious missions because he understood the danger of what she was up against. But Ben hadn't turned dark yet. At that point, Ben was just learning that Vader was his grandfather (Leia had kept this from him until he was training with Luke and the truth had come out in the Senate).

I'm very perplexed about how you can give Poe Dameron a pass after he stages an uprising and sends an open mic radio broadcast that *directly leads to the deaths of 80% of the Resistance* but then be disgusted with Han who not only directly saves Rey (the ST's "Chosen One" and primary protagonist) but also the *entire Resistance* with his plan to set the detonators and blow open the Oscillator. I really can't wrap my head around the fact that you find the former situation to be an example of satisfying and realistic flaws while condemning Han for taking a break when it didn't matter and then joining the fight when it did??? To each his own I guess. ;)

When it comes to heroic characters, their intent matters more to me than the outcome of their actions. If their heart is in the right place, I'm not going to judge them as harshly for lapses in tactical judgment, or for not being perfect, or for simply getting outsmarted. In the OT, Luke put his friends at risk on more than one occasion (and some of his execution was arguably pretty dumb too); but he was trying to do the right thing in those instances. He was heroic. Han was heroic in the OT too. He made some questionable decisions with lives on the line, but OT Han was acting with good intentions.

Can you honestly tell me that Han was doing the right thing as presented in TFA by letting Leia go tangle with the FO on her own while he went back to smuggling things like rathtars, and swindling the Guavian Death Gang and Kanjiklub? What Poe did by broadcasting intel was a tactical mistake, not a dereliction of good conscience. Poe was trying to do the right thing; trying to save lives. By comparison, what was Han doing? Why did Maz tell him to go home and get in the fight? She was making a judgment about his priorities and decision-making, imo.

Poe's mistakes in TLJ came from being overly eager to help the Resistance (the good guys). I don't have a problem with those kinds of short-sighted mistakes; especially since learning from them played into a demonstrable evolution of his character. What was TFA telling us about Han's evolution of character? Han went back to shady dealings with shady groups. That's the distinction I make between the two characters, but obviously it's a purely subjective one.

For what it's worth, guys ... I love reading this back and forth. You are both very knowledgeable about the source material and well-spoken, while not reducing yourselves to name-calling or hostility due to a difference of opinion. Keep it up ... it's appreciated!

:clap

Thanks for posting that. :duff

A civil back-and-forth with Khev requires no special effort on my part; he's a total class act. For me, these debates are more enjoyable for that reason. I'm also glad to just have a new set of SW movies to shoot the **** about.
 
Sigh ...... I miss that fallout guy and the other dude spazz. I love positivity but man there hatred was entertaining
 
She's not pinning her hopes on Luke to turn Ben; she's looking to Luke to help take down the FO.


Yes, this is confirmed in the (canon) Poe Dameron comic which provides a bit of a back story for TFA.



W5OTWgv.jpg




It also echoes Leia pinning her hopes on Obi-Wan in ANH (as Artoo reminds Luke in TLJ).
 
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Not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is this: as far as I can tell, that line in the TFA opening crawl seems to be in direct conflict with much of the premise of that very same film, and the events that play out in it (and a deleted TFA scene, and its sequel, and several novels, and the visual dictionaries, and Wookieepedia, and so on). All of the existing ST material (that I'm aware of) points to Leia forming and leading an independent force to deal with the imminent threat of the First Order.

It's not just that everything outside of TFA very clearly shows that the Resistance was not being backed by the Republic . . . it's that TFA itself makes no sense (to me) if that wasn't the case. If Leia had the backing of the Senate and the Republic armies, she wouldn't be taking extreme risks with such an outmatched fighting force and such limited resources. She wouldn't be spending precious time and resources in trying to find Luke so that he could come back and help her take down the FO. She's only doing these things because the Republic isn't willing to engage the FO themselves.

Hmm okay so you disregard the movie's opening crawl and 3PO's line about being doomed because they no longer have the Republic fleet. I guess we disagree then because I have absolutely no problem with letting those two elements of the film stand as authorities on that aspect of the story. Somebody had to give Leia all her X-Wings, and her base, or at least the funds to purchase them and the opening crawl states point blank who is supporting her so in my mind the film fits together just fine in that regard.

"TFA itself makes no sense" if she has the support of the Republic? Again I disagree. Now obviously there are different levels of support. And "support" does not inherently mean "will do whatever she wants them to do at all times." I see Leia and the Republic in TFA as being somewhat similar to Raddus and the Alliance in RO. Raddus obviously had his own fighting force that were loyal to him moreso than the will of the overall Alliance and he even defied the greater council but he still relied on them for fighter support. If Mon Mothma didn't send Red and Gold Group to Scariff he would have been in big trouble. Okay bigger trouble since he got captured anyway, lol.

So picture Raddus arriving at Scariff and then them getting the transmission that Yavin had been destroyed by the Death Star before they could launch the X-Wings and Y-Wings. 3PO (who was on Raddus' ship, lol) might have said, "Oh no, without the Alliance fighters we're doomed!" :)

Now I have a feeling you're going to point out some minute difference between Leia and Raddus and yes it's not an *exact* parallel but I think it's close enough. ;) Even the wookiepedia page says that the Resistance was financially supported by "some" senators in the Republic and the deleted scene you mentioned with Korr Sella (poor girl) you mentioned has Leia acknowledging that she believes there are still some senators on her side. So even taking those outside elements then at the very worst the Republic is divided which probably means that any decision they make (military or otherwise) is done with a good deal of controversy. So it probably wasn't a given that Leia could count on them 100% of the time but I can allow that they would have come through for her (even if "off the record") often enough (with ships, funds, pilots, etc.) that they were still "supportive," even if not 100% reliable.

But again that lack of reliability only gets magnified if you focus more on material *outside* the film more than TFA itself. And if focusing on such materials makes you dislike the character of Han Solo then if I were you I'd ignore that stuff. But of course that's up to you. :)

But when Han stated that, Leia makes it clear to him that Luke couldn't reach Ben because Luke isn't his father.

Right because up until then Han had been seeing it as a Jedi/pupil matter that he had no chance of impacting. He had no experience turning someone consumed with the Dark Side and could have even assumed that you need the Force on your side to even try. "If Luke couldn't reach him how could I" says it all IMO. Leia said hey, it's not about that, you're his dad, that trumps everything and we see that this wasn't a conversation that they'd had before because Ford behaves as if analyzing her words for the first time (great performance on his part too.)

She's not pinning her hopes on Luke to turn Ben; she's looking to Luke to help take down the FO.

Of course. We learn that from Poe's very first line in TFA "With this we might just have a chance." Poe of course had no idea that Kylo Ren was Leia's son, he was glad only for the fact that Luke might help them militarily. But we were talking about what Han knew. If the FO wasn't a great threat to the entire galaxy and he thought that Leia was searching for Luke in a continued attempt to save her son as a side project while policing the galaxy against minor rabble-rousers like the FO then that's another reason that I can accept why Han wouldn't see the need to be involved.

They obviously had some sort of effed up family, for all we know he figured that his son was like his ex-wife, who he claimed "doesn't want to see me." So maybe he thought that just the sight of his own face would push Kylo away even further. Who knows. Lots of leeway in justifying why Han did what he did IMO.

When it comes to heroic characters, their intent matters more to me than the outcome of their actions. If their heart is in the right place, I'm not going to judge them as harshly for lapses in tactical judgment, or for not being perfect, or for simply getting outsmarted. In the OT, Luke put his friends at risk on more than one occasion (and some of his execution was arguably pretty dumb too); but he was trying to do the right thing in those instances. He was heroic. Han was heroic in the OT too. He made some questionable decisions with lives on the line, but OT Han was acting with good intentions.

Can you honestly tell me that Han was doing the right thing as presented in TFA by letting Leia go tangle with the FO on her own while he went back to smuggling things like rathtars, and swindling the Guavian Death Gang and Kanjiklub? What Poe did by broadcasting intel was a tactical mistake, not a dereliction of good conscience. Poe was trying to do the right thing; trying to save lives. By comparison, what was Han doing? Why did Maz tell him to go home and get in the fight? She was making a judgment about his priorities and decision-making, imo.

Poe's mistakes in TLJ came from being overly eager to help the Resistance (the good guys). I don't have a problem with those kinds of short-sighted mistakes; especially since learning from them played into a demonstrable evolution of his character. What was TFA telling us about Han's evolution of character? Han went back to shady dealings with shady groups. That's the distinction I make between the two characters, but obviously it's a purely subjective one.

Hmm, okay, I'll go ahead and disagree on the inherent value of having "good intentions" when those intentions cause someone to do bad things. I mean if you take that theme to the max then you can end up with characters like Thanos or Alexander Pierce in TWS. Or to a lesser extent Star-Lord or Dr. Strange compared to a non-"justify the means" character like MCU Cap. Poe wanted to help everyone but he just went way too off the rails to the point of getting almost everyone killed. Hell he caused a greater percentage of the good guys to die than Thanos himself, lol. :lol

But with Han I just see him as being taken out of the fight due to emotional damage. And for me that becomes a more forgivable, even relatable, offense. I put Luke in the same category. When Cap had only seconds to put the last chip into the rogue Helicarrier in TWS but then *stopped* and sat down and took a break did you fault him for it? I'm guessing no since he had an open wound in his gut cause by Bucky's gunshot. But he gathered himself, got up and continued the fight. In my mind at least, that's exactly what Han Solo and Luke Skywalker did but on an emotional level instead of physical.

A civil back-and-forth with Khev requires no special effort on my part; he's a total class act.

Right back at ya sir! :duff

For me, these debates are more enjoyable for that reason. I'm also glad to just have a new set of SW movies to shoot the **** about.

Amen! :rock
 
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Nah. It all got a bit tiresome to me. If memory serves they weren't even talking about Star Wars anymore.

Didn't he start posting stuff about being an alpha male and videos about how to pick up chicks or something? :lol
 
Whoever honestly misses Spazz and his long, raving, pseudo-intellectual rants has to be Spazz under a new username. His opinions about the movie aside, he clearly had a few screws loose.
 
Didn't Spazz come back with a funny *** name as a sock account? It was so obvious it was him with his political essays. :lol

He seemed to get on well with Snikt though.
 
Why do you assume that they all gave up and/or ignored this kid? That would have been fairly destructive of each character involved.

Ren pursuing the dark side without recourse to cliched juvenile delinquent excuses is a lot more interesting.

I looked at it as a reflection of the times. I figured it would be social commentary about a child who fell through the cracks. And what can happen to them of they meet the wrong kind of mentor at that time.

I never thought Han or Leia would make good parents. They had passions that were not suitable for a stable childhood.

Add on the enevitable pressure of being the son of General Solo and the leader if the Rebellion and daughter of Darth Vader, and I thought Kylos childhood would end up being tragic....




Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....
 
Whoever honestly misses Spazz and his long, raving, pseudo-intellectual rants has to be Spazz under a new username. His opinions about the movie aside, he clearly had a few screws loose.

Lol you didn’t think all his rants and the hatred for the movie was hilarious? Now it’s a huge hug fest in here. It’s fun to hear different opinions no matter how outlandish they are. It was hilarious to me
 
When Covenant came out were people wanting a Prometheus sequel (new ideas) or a Alien movie? I feel that the backlash of Prometheus not being the Alien movie everyone wanted pressured RS to fall back into the Alien model (boring seen it so many times). I feel episode 9 is going to suffer the same thing. Peoples bitching and complaining about TLJ will make Disney go back to “safe and known territory”. And when E9 is released thew will cry its boring (seen all that before). And deep down crave more of TLJ flavour.
 
Hmm okay so you disregard the movie's opening crawl and 3PO's line about being doomed because they no longer have the Republic fleet. I guess we disagree then because I have absolutely no problem with letting those two elements of the film stand as authorities on that aspect of the story.

I disregard that line in the opening crawl of TFA because the premise of much of the movie, and absolutely everything I've come across that LFL/Disney has put out after that, ended up making the line utterly incoherent. If I don't disregard that line, I'd have to disregard all of the novels, the reference books, and other supplementary material that directly contradict it. More importantly, I'd also have to disregard a logical premise for there being a Resistance in the first place, and for their desperate need to bring back Luke Skywalker. Leia wouldn't need a Resistance, or Luke, because a Republic (and their army) aligned with her agenda would negate any such needs.

The Threepio line is a different deal, though. That line is one he could've easily delivered had the Hosnian system not been destroyed. Upon merely learning of the destructive potential of Starkiller targeting them, and knowing that the Resistance had no support from the Republic, Threepio could have easily still opined that: "Without the Republic fleet, we're doomed."

I didn't infer from Threepio's line that the Hosnian destruction led to the entire Republic fleet being destroyed along with it. It was a *galactic* Republic; so for their military machinery to all be centralized on one system of five planets would be absurd. There would also likely be a chain of command in place that would go into effect following the destruction of their central command/Senate. I presume (maybe wrongly) that the Republic wouldn't be stupid enough to centralize everything and leave the much larger galaxy unchecked and unprotected.

Somebody had to give Leia all her X-Wings, and her base, or at least the funds to purchase them and the opening crawl states point blank who is supporting her so in my mind the film fits together just fine in that regard.

The Resistance is basically recycling a lot of old Rebel resources, in much the same way that renegade opposition forces get their resources in real life. There's a lot of X-Wings, A-Wings, and other Rebellion-era vehicles that would likely have been decommissioned by the New Republic in favor of newer models. Funding could've come from a multitude of sources, including the individual senators sympathetic to her cause (made clear in "Bloodline"). But not from the Republic as one official governing body; again, that wouldn't make sense.

Leia also recruited old Rebellion allies like Ackbar and Nien Nunb who no longer had roles to relish in the New Republic. That was in addition to also recruiting young idealists and dreamers who were loyal to her from her time in the Senate; or who were loyal to the idea of defeating a galactic threat that the Republic was doing nothing about, but that Leia was convinced needed to be stopped. I've enjoyed the novels and reference books that have touched on this early formation of the Resistance, and how Leia started sniffing out the First Order. There's some pretty good stuff in there.

But again that lack of reliability only gets magnified if you focus more on material *outside* the film more than TFA itself. And if focusing on such materials makes you dislike the character of Han Solo then if I were you I'd ignore that stuff. But of course that's up to you. :)

No, it's very much even TFA itself. Again, the search for Luke was a key plot point to the entire movie. If Leia could count on the Republic to do anything but sit on their *****, she wouldn't be so desperate to bring Luke back. The Resistance is pinning their hopes on Luke because they'll be defeated easily otherwise. And why? Because they aren't being backed by the Republic. The deleted TFA scene proves that JJ's Leia is desperate for the Senate to come to their senses and change their official position. Why would she want them to change their minds if they were already supporting her? That makes no sense.

They obviously had some sort of effed up family, for all we know he figured that his son was like his ex-wife, who he claimed "doesn't want to see me." So maybe he thought that just the sight of his own face would push Kylo away even further. Who knows. Lots of leeway in justifying why Han did what he did IMO.

Sure, there's leeway. Just like there's leeway to believe Han felt that Leia didn't want to see him because she'd be angry that he abandoned her, abandoned any effort to save their son, and abandoned the good fight against the FO.

What I rely on is context. There's the context of Han and Leia in the OT, and the context offered in TFA. Han had evolved into a steadfast hero by the end of the OT; willing to sacrifice whatever he needed to in order to protect what mattered to him. Most especially, to protect Leia. When we see him in TFA, though, he's needing someone like Maz to point out that he's being derelict in his duties and obligations. Instead of supporting the fledgling Resistance, or helping find Luke, or working with Leia on how to save Ben, or doing anything the way we'd expect . . . what did we find Han doing? Smuggling rathtars and swindling death gangs.

When he reunites with Leia, we see how she treats him. There's no insufferable hostility. Leia's incredibly gracious to Han, and clearly wanting him to "come back home." In part, because (as she says) she always hated watching him leave. But he'd clearly left anyway. He left everything he'd built. Left everything he would have died to try to protect in the OT . . . in order to return to smuggling and swindling. That's the context and exposition I saw, and what I had a problem with. But that's just me, and I can compartmentalize it enough to still enjoy TFA.

But with Han I just see him as being taken out of the fight due to emotional damage. And for me that becomes a more forgivable, even relatable, offense. I put Luke in the same category.

Khev, you're actually preaching to the choir; but in an unsuspecting and unintended way. As I've mentioned here before: I hated the TFA idea of Luke leaving everyone to fend for themselves too. :lol A major reason why I appreciate TLJ so much is because it did the best it could to make Luke's abandoning seem selfless and aimed at doing the right thing. By the end of TLJ, Luke had realized that his effort to do the right thing was misguided . . . but it was still him trying to achieve a right/good purpose all along. Han clearly wasn't trying to do anything noble in the couple/few years prior to TFA.

JJ didn't seem to mind that Han and Luke would lose their nobility, so long as they find the righteous road eventually. I understand how some think that's perfectly fine; I get it. But, for me, that kind of logic flies in the face of their characterizations in the OT. Han, Luke, and Leia were largely defined by their willingness to sacrifice selflessly for the greater good. Any story that has either of them acting purely selfishly all of a sudden, and without any heroic motive, is one that I'd have issues with every time. Not to the point of hating the story, but definitely to the point of being disappointed.
 
Interesting read AJP :duff

You raise a good point about the republic fleet... But if it was scattered about the Galaxy (and not foolishly all clustered around Hosnian Prime) then you would have thought that others would have rallied to Leia after the events of TFA. Or at the least would have moved in to challenge the very real and unavoidable threat that the first order had revealed themselves to be. I mean they just blew up the galactic government and five planets, I can't imagine any republic officers (or citizens) wanting to remain neutral after that.

Regarding Han, I also dislike that he and Leia split. Loyalty, looking out for others and just sticking around when the going got tough were some of the fundamental lessons his character learns in the OT. His actions prior to TFA, seem to very much cut across this and demonstrate character regression. However, with Han (unlike Luke), I can just about reconcile his "running away" if he did so after he realised his son had turned bad and murdered the other students and was now off commiting atrocities around the Galaxy.

I would imagine that finding this out about your kid would cause tension between any parents. I could also see Han feeling out of his depth and fairly helpless as unlike his wife and brother in law he is not a force user and this is fundamentally a light side dark side of the force issue. Despite Han's bravado he has always had a big heart and I could believe that part of his problem was that he would not be able bring himself to raise arms against his son despite everything he had done. Han not knowing what to do led him to returning to the only thing that made sense to him ... life as a smuggler before he got caught up in the battles of Jedi and Sith.

As a fan of the OT it is sad turn of events for a character that I care about but I can see the pieces fitting together.

Unlike you, I have no problem with Han going out that way that he did. Han has always been a classic swashbuckling type roguish character, seemingly with 9 lives and with a knack for always landing on his feet (just about). So I find it fitting that the one thing that finally gets him in the end isn't a blaster or a mistake but his love for his son.

Han appeals to Ben because Leia asks him to and because he hopes it might make a difference. However, my impression from his facial expressions before stepping out onto the bridge, is that he thinks it is too late. With that in mind, it makes it even more powerful that he still takes that step knowing that he is almost certainly going to his death. Han goes willingly out of love for his wife and the chance, no matter how small, to save his son. As a father this resonates very strongly with me as given the same or similar circumstances I'd like to think I would act the same way.
 
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