Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[Darth Skywalker]

Okay, so Luke went looking for this lost Temple. Found it.

Obviously there was A SECOND PERSON who knew where it was. THAT PERSON made the map.

Who was this second person?

 

[Khev]

Okay, so Luke went looking for this lost Temple. Found it.

Obviously there was A SECOND PERSON who knew where it was. THAT PERSON made the map.

Who was this second person?

Rey's dad. Who agreed to make it for the Empire after sending Rey to Jakku. This will all be spelled out in "Raiders of the Lost Jedi Temple of Doom: A Star Wars Story."

 

[Darth Skywalker]

Okay, so Rey’s dad is Dr. Henry Jones.

Makes sense that knew how to find the lost temple.

 

[noisetrigger]

Okay, so Luke went looking for this lost Temple. Found it.

Obviously there was A SECOND PERSON who knew where it was. THAT PERSON made the map.

Who was this second person?

It was implied that the map was taken from the Jedi archive after the fall of the republic and has been kept sealed and forgotten in the Imperial archive until R2-D2 stumble upon it.

 

[Prime Clone]

Okay, according to the new canon comics, the map was to the temple, not Luke. But Lor San Tekka had a theory that’s where Luke was:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-lor-san-tekka-explained-comic/

 

[noisetrigger]

Okay, according to the new canon comics, the map was to the temple, not Luke. But Lor San Tekka had a theory that’s where Luke was:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-lor-san-tekka-explained-comic/

And that is what the last few pages have been arguing about. Finally a resolution.

 

[xipotec]

Again , we are back to the same arguments that people use to “prove” TLJ is a bad film, rather than just admitting its an opinion that they “didn’t like it.”

This is the crux of the issue.

Many SW fans (especially the self proclaimed passionate ones” ) feel the need to tell everyone who did like the film, why they are wrong in their opinion. Then they attempt to argue the point to prove their opinion, using the same internet buzz talking points, which, for the most part, have explanations. Once you list those explanations it devolves into a “plausible/not plausible” discussion, and your back to opinions again.

BUT, the plausible/not plausible is impossible to prove quantitatively, especially in light of the fact that similar plausible/not plausible plot issues were accepted at face value from previous films in this very universe. AND of course, we are talking about space wizards here, so plausible is a nonsense word at that point.

One could argue that plausibility is defined by what we know of the fictional universe thus far...... unfortunately in a fictional world, “thus far” is the key word. Just because you have not seen something in a fictional world, does not make it implausible. (Hell, this is true of the real world....I never though the reality of regular people in space or hand held “tricorder” like communications devices would be a reality in my life....

It reminds me of the film “Galaxy Quest” where the fans are asking the cast about how a certain thing on the tv show could work in light if other “facts” the show revealed.....the answer “Its a TV show.....”

I would say the same. If you hated it, good for you. But if your trying to prove to people that liked it why they are wrong, your wasting everyones time.

I mean , people like blood sausage....I don’t think its reasonable for me to explain to people why they should hate it based on the manufacturing process...










Sent from the inside of a giant slug in outer space.....

 

[ajp4mgs]

I wanted him to go into exile until he was needed as a last resort. That’s why he left a FRICKIN MAP in R2, just in case, that only Rey could unlock, when the Force decided it was time. He hid Rey in the middle of nowhere to protect her from Kylo when he went crazy and destroyed the Jedi students.

It’s the same story as Luke being hidden by Ben, until the time was right and the threat was too much. Same story, yeah, but it’s the right story to tell. It’s real life; responsiblities being passed down to the next generation.

I don't understand how your scenario would be the same as Kenobi and Luke. Obi-Wan hid Luke with a protective family to raise him. In contrast, the TFA flashback showed Rey being handed off to Unkar Plutt. The guy was an ***hole junk dealer who would end up treating Rey like crap (and even chased her down, and threatened to kill her, in a TFA deleted scene).

Rey wasn't left in good hands the way Luke was with the Lars couple. She was handed over to a borderline slave master who was even willing to work with the First Order (offering Rey tons of portions to get BB-8 to turn over to the FO). Why would Luke (or anyone who cared about her) leave Rey in that situation? #notmyluke

However I do think that the ST might be even worse in that regard. It's quite ridiculous that after ROTJ's victory neither TFA nor TLJ have explained just how the hell the FO "rose from the ashes of the Empire," why Ben Solo went to the Dark Side, or why Rey can do what she does. I'm okay turning a blind eye to a lot of things when it comes to Star Wars but I definitely can't defend the ST's half-baked narrative. If that's a deal breaker for anyone then I totally get why they'd be put off by these new films. Luckily I've been having great fun with these flicks despite their shortcomings.

Even with no opening scroll or text whatsoever RO was crystal clear as to where it fit in with the rest of the Saga and why things were happening the way they were happening. There really is no excuse with regard to TFA and TLJ IMO.

I can see how unanswered plot background would be a problem for people, but there's still the possibility that answers are on the way in Episode IX. And we didn't learn things like how the Emperor came to power, or why Anakin went to the Dark Side, until the PT came along 16 years later. Waiting four years to learn how Snoke and the First Order came to power, and why Ben Solo turned, would be pretty reasonable by comparison.

One of the differences with the OT was that the first movie was done in a way that could've been a self-contained story (sequels weren't an absolute certainty during filming). Lucas didn't really have the option of leaving things vague in ANH, and be able to count on revealing stuff later. When he got sequels to be green-lighted, he actually started "retconning" things so that he could have dramatic reveals in ESB and ROTJ.

Rogue One was also meant to be a self-contained side story. The idea of mystery boxes and leaving things open-ended for reveals in later installments wasn't an option. And there was no need for setup because the basic premise of the film was already set up by ANH. Everyone knew the context for how RO would fit into the saga before even sitting down to watch it.

With the ST, Abrams/LFL/Disney knew that this was going to be a trilogy no matter what. In fact, Adam Driver recently said that he's known all along how his character will end up at the end of IX. So, they can afford to leave things vague in parts 7 and 8, knowing that they'll have 9 to connect all the dots. The concern would be whether or not they do get connected in Ep9. Too soon to tell; the story isn't over yet.

 

[Khev]

we didn't learn things like how the Emperor came to power,

Except that we didn't see a film *before* ANH that specifically showed the Empire (complete with Sith, Star Destroyers, TIE Fighters and Stormtroopers) being definitively defeated. If we had then the mere existence of Vader's Star Destroyer chasing Leia's ship during the film's opening would have seemed incredibly odd without some logical explanation.

or why Anakin went to the Dark Side, until the PT came along 16 years later.

Well Anakin was more of a blank slate than Ben Solo. You'd think that someone raised by Han Solo and Princess Leia under the watchful care of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker would be one of the least likely people to ever turn to the Dark Side. Yet he did, for absolutely no stated reason. In ANH when Ben said that Vader was "seduced by the Dark Side of the Force" its all so ambiguous that it by definition can't feel out of place. Then ESB elaborated further in revealing that Anakin might have had good intentions but made the mistake of choosing the "quick and easy path" which led to his destruction as Anakin Skywalker. We didn't get much more than that but the little morsels of backstory that were provided all seemed to have a logical flow.

You know I'm a big fan of TFA and TLJ but where we differ is that I have to put them in the "mixed bag of fun" category along with ROTJ and I know that's where we differ. I really like ROTJ! Love it in fact. Have since I was a kid. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't have silly, and contrived, and outright lazy aspects to the narrative. It's still thoroughly entertaining, just not as tightly crafted as SW, ESB, and RO. And yes I'd include TPM with ROTJ/TFA/TLJ as well.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Well Anakin was more of a blank slate than Ben Solo. You'd think that someone raised by Han Solo and Princess Leia under the watchful care of Jedi Master Luke Skywalker would be one of the least likely people to ever turn to the Dark Side. Yet he did, for absolutely no stated reason. In ANH when Ben said that Vader was "seduced by the Dark Side of the Force" its all so ambiguous that it by definition can't feel out of place. Then ESB elaborated further in revealing that Anakin might have had good intentions but made the mistake of choosing the "quick and easy path" which led to his destruction as Anakin Skywalker. We didn't get much more than that but the little morsels of backstory that were provided all seemed to have a logical flow.

Very true. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that by having this be a planned trilogy, I don't knock it (yet) for leaving things mysterious and open-ended. I see it more as telling a 3-part story, instead of 3 individual stories.

You know I'm a big fan of TFA and TLJ but where we differ is that I have to put them in the "mixed bag of fun" category along with ROTJ and I know that's where we differ. I really like ROTJ! Love it in fact. Have since I was a kid. But I'd be lying if I said it didn't have silly, and contrived, and outright lazy aspects to the narrative. It's still thoroughly entertaining, just not as tightly crafted as SW, ESB, and RO. And yes I'd include TPM with ROTJ/TFA/TLJ as well.

We don't differ as much you think. I don't put TFA and TLJ anywhere near ANH and ESB. Some have; I don't! In fact, TFA improved for me only after TLJ, because I hated that Luke had abandoned Leia and the fight against the First Order. TLJ gave me a reason to be sympathetic toward Luke and why he would've done that.

Where we differ vastly is TPM. And that's fine; makes the discussions more interesting.

 

[Khev]

Very true. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that by having this be a planned trilogy, I don't knock it (yet) for leaving things mysterious and open-ended. I see it more as telling a 3-part story, instead of 3 individual stories.

Very true and if EPIX does adequately fill in all the holes so that the trilogy no longer has such gaps in the narrative then that criticism will be moot going forward so we'll just have to see. To put it another way imagine if the Saga began with the PT but then after ROTS we got an Episode IV where the Jedi were suddenly organized and off policing the galaxy again with the Empire not really doing anything about it. And that neither Episode IV or even V explained why. Pretty weird right? That's all I'm saying.

We don't differ as much you think. I don't put TFA and TLJ anywhere near ANH and ESB. Some have; I don't! In fact, TFA improved for me only after TLJ, because I hated that Luke had abandoned Leia and the fight against the First Order. TLJ gave me a reason to be sympathetic toward Luke and why he would've done that.

Yes, I don't think people give RJ enough credit for Luke. Sure the "Force awakening power in one side to restore balance" doesn't really gel with how we've seen the Force portrayed in Episodes I-VI but RJ was basically handed the task of either breaking the Force or breaking Luke. Given the lesser of two evils dilemma I'm glad he chose the former. Could he have come up with an even better reason for Luke being on the island that would have pleased everyone? Possibly. But I don't believe that any error he made with regard to Luke was simply due to a desire to "subvert expectations" or piss off fans. I think he really wanted to reconcile the end of TFA and gave it his all to do so. Now obviously trying does not equal succeeding but I don't think his choice was an outright failure. I'd give a grade of B, maybe even a C+ if I'm not in a forgiving mood. But Hamill's performance alone definitely raises it to B+/A- territory for me.

Where we differ vastly is TPM. And that's fine; makes the discussions more interesting.

Come on I think we can all agree that a 27 minute Pod Race and then a two minute Jedi Purge is what we were all hoping to see when the prequels were first announced.

 

[DiFabio]

One of the differences with the OT was that the first movie was done in a way that could've been a self-contained story (sequels weren't an absolute certainty during filming). Lucas didn't really have the option of leaving things vague in ANH, and be able to count on revealing stuff later. When he got sequels to be green-lighted, he actually started "retconning" things so that he could have dramatic reveals in ESB and ROTJ.

I sort of wish it was.

After the first one, the story just got more and more convoluted and unnatural. As much as I love Empire, the reveal is where the whole story goes off the rails. Once Vader reveals himself to be Luke’s father, everything turns to crap.

1. Luke’s reaction is melodramatic and cheesy
2. He instantly accepts the fact that this guy is his dad, even going as far as calling him father telepathically and calling out Ben
3. The heroic and noble action of not accepting Vader’s offer and letting go of the gantry is completely negated when a wind current conveniently floats him to safety
4. Why didn’t Obi-Wan and Yoda just tell Luke after they got to know him
5. Why wouldn’t Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru tell him
6. Why is Owen’s last name Lars and not Skywalker or Kenobi?
7. If they aren’t blood relatives, why would a young man not question this? Why even name him Skywalker?
8. Calling out to Leia telepathically and having her actually hear him is cringey


Obi-Wan ends up looking like a colossal piece of ****. Yoda looks like a piece of ****. Vader and the Emperor sound ******** referring to the “son of Skywalker” and Anakin in the third person. I mean if the Jedi and Sith want to play that stupid game of identities, then I guess technically, Vader isn’t Luke’s father right? “That name no longer has any meaning to me” right? Ok then *** hole, drop it. It’s all stupid.

Once you get to Jedi with Obi-Wan’s “point of view” BS and throwing Leia into the Skywalker mix (which I definitely think ruins her characterization from Star Wars and Empire) the things that follow like midcholirans, chosen one prophecies, virgin births, First Orders, Ben Solo, Rey and silly hidden maps shouldn’t be much of a surprise.


Star Wars as a whole is ****ing stupid. The first film captured the imagination of millions, the sequel as well but the second Vader decides to randomly exclaim that Obi-Wan never told him about his father, it just gets stupid. Every movie after that is a reaction and poor explanation to that moment.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Where's Riddick and Gaspar? Are they safe? Are they alright?

 

[Chakor]

Star Wars as a whole is ****ing stupid. The first film captured the imagination of millions, the sequel as well but the second Vader decides to randomly exclaim that Obi-Wan never told him about his father, it just gets stupid. Every movie after that is a reaction and poor explanation to that moment.

 

[Wor-Gar]

6. Why is Owen’s last name Lars and not Skywalker or Kenobi?.

I can answer this!

Mr. Lars married Vader's mommy. His son, Owen, is Anakin's step-brother.

Better question is: Why does Owen age so much in 19 years is a total mystery.

Why does Mom Mothma age so much in 4 years?

 

[Khev]

Probably the single most clever thing that George did in the entire PT happened in the worst film, AOTC, lol. And that was the ingenius way that he reconciled the Owen/Ben/Anakin/Tatooine connection suggested way back in the beginning of ANH.

 

[a-dev]

Very true and if EPIX does adequately fill in all the holes so that the trilogy no longer has such gaps in the narrative then that criticism will be moot going forward so we'll just have to see. To put it another way imagine if the Saga began with the PT but then after ROTS we got an Episode IV where the Jedi were suddenly organized and off policing the galaxy again with the Empire not really doing anything about it. And that neither Episode IV or even V explained why. Pretty weird right? That's all I'm saying.

****ing exactly.

Where's Riddick and Gaspar? Are they safe? Are they alright?

I see what you did there

Probably the single most clever thing that George did in the entire PT happened in the worst film, AOTC, lol. And that was the ingenius way that he reconciled the Owen/Ben/Anakin/Tatooine connection suggested way back in the beginning of ANH.

Can you clarify? Because I was always dissatisfied with that aspect of the PT, felt it really should have been given more and better attention.

 

[a-dev]

I sort of wish it was.

After the first one, the story just got more and more convoluted and unnatural. As much as I love Empire.

*fingers in ears*

I love Empire

I love Empire

I love Empire

 

[Khev]

****ing exactly.

To take inspiration from a hilarious mock scroll you posted about Episode IX:

STAR WARS

EPISODE IV: THE REBELLION AWAKENS

Darth Vader has vanished. Somehow after being basically eradicated the Jedi have risen from the ashes of the Emperor's Purge. The Emperor's son is now inexplicably in charge of the Rebel Alliance. Despite already finding the Chosen One 30 years ago Palpatine has sent one of his best clone pilots in search of a map that could find him again and restore the Empire to it's former glory....​

I mean whaaaat? But that's the ST for you, lol.

Can you clarify? Because I was always dissatisfied with that aspect of the PT, felt it really should have been given more and better attention.

Growing up I always thought that the logistics of Luke's connection to Owen Lars and Owen's connection to Darth Freaking Vader were highly suspect and most likely without any satisfying explanation at all. But AOTC provided a pretty organic explanation for why Vader would have a Tatooine connection and how Owen and Beru fit in and why Luke would be given to them. It turns out Owen is a Skywalker himself, but never in a way that I ever could have guessed. Closes that loop in pretty much every way that actually felt pretty natural IMO.

And now curse you for making me defend AOTC, lol.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I'm still trying to figure out why Annie tried jumping over Obi Wan in ROTS? A simple little jump and he would have landed on solid ground safely at the bottom of the hill.