Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2)

[rushmore223]

Think they'll ever do the same with Rey?

I don't know, but I would like a departure from this storyline after episode 9. If they have to return to it, give it some time, a decade or more.

 

[zeiss]

In a way I would agree that they need some time but I also feel that they really haven't gotten this story off the ground yet. The world building in the movies has been rather paltry and both Rey and Kylo didn't have significant changes from the end of TFA and the end of TLJ. Yes Kylo got rid of his internal conflict and Rey found out she has to rely on herself for answers but considering the savior roles each of these two characters have for the resistance and first order, it seeme like much more is needed for their story to feel complete. It feels like both the world they are creating and the characters need more time to come into their own.

Also, At this point, they haven't really conveyed a sense of scale for what is happening in these movies. The first order wiped out the republic in TFA but since it basically came out of nowhere and characters didn't really react all that significantly to the event, it doesn't convey how powerful the first order has become. In fact, TLJ makes this even more problematic as neither the first order or the resistance really had significant numbers. they came off as two rival gangs fighting as if it is life and death while the rest of the galaxy just shrugs. In fact, Del Toro's s character basically did just that.

 

[TaliBane]

should have taken 10 more seconds or it could be a reading comprehension issue...my post has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with disliking TLJ (didn't even mention TLJ in the post) and everything to do with anyone believing that THEIR opinion must be shared by everyone else, good or bad. Good looking out by finding that post though...you actually further substantiated my original point and demonstrated that at least I have been consistent with these views! Reading comprehension...

Reading comprehension?

You were talking about fans who don't like the ST that feel that "we are supposed to hate the ST" (your interpretation, not mine) and mocking by saying that "THEIR opinions are so valid and true that they just MUST truly be shared by everyone" and how it's "crazy" and a "weird and frankly bizarre belief."

And isn't TLJ the most recent/discussed part of the ST, and the title of the thread? "ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with disliking TLJ"?? wtf? Why try to deny what you were saying - your post was absolutely about TLJ and you know it.



And "everything to do with anyone believing that THEIR opinion must be shared by everyone else"?

You weren't talking about just "anyone" and their opinion - you were specifically talking about the opinion of people who didn't like the ST/TLJ, and inferring it was "crazy/weird/frankly bizarre" for someone to feel like they were missing out on something SW related because of the ST sucking all the air out of the brand. THAT'S what your post had "everything to do with."



My post was simply in response to people who repeatedly say "if you don't like TLJ, you don't have to watch it" - that it's more complex than that. Like... what's left of SW currently for fans who didn't like TLJ?

And you, while also mocking my personal opinion (as "crazy" and "weird",) then distorted what I was saying to infer I was saying everyone was "supposed to hate the ST" because I did (or for the same reasons I did) - which is FALSE.

 

[DarkChocobi]

Why would even bother discussing with the guy who said "put George Lucas to jail due to the Prequels" and praise TLJ on the other hand

btw cannot wait to see this show

 

[jal76]

They turned Luke into somewhat of a tragic figure, one that was believable in my eyes. Heroes fall to their own frailties sometimes, making him a beacon of good, and an unfaltering hero seems too easy and unrealistic. Sooner or later doubt and regret can chip away at our souls, and Luke was an excellent example of that. I applaud those who took his character in that daunting direction, I'm sure some might have expected it wouldn't play well with everybody, but it was brave nonetheless and for me at least, it led to a very satisfying story.

Count me in as a TLJ lover.

The truth is, no matter what the story was, many would have been up and arms over it, I'm just glad the filmmakers didn't play it safe.

I also think that Luke's evolution to where he is in TLJ, though it felt like a departure because he was not fitting into the classic hero mold, was still consistent with the character's over-all arc. The original trilogy already set up that Luke goes against the grains and does not necessarily do what is expected of him. He places his personal desire to save his friends ahead of meeting the grander expectation that he completes his Jedi Training...his choosing exile for atonement over working to save the universe seems consistent with this. I feel like Luke was always a complicated hero.

 

[GeneralZodLives]

Think they'll ever do the same with Rey?

They'll have Rey perform a ridiculously powerful never-before-seen Force feat to save the day at the end of IX. Then she'll consciously decide to go Force Ghost instead of that expenditure of power killing her like it did weak-*** Luke. However, her Force Ghost won't be a shimmery blue thing--her Force Ghost will actually be just as solid and in color as her normal alive body and she'll be even MORE powerful than before.

 

[xipotec]

I am actually thinking the route they will go is to have everything burned down...as they have continually hinted at.

The rebellion gone
The Empire and FO gone.
The Jedi and Sith (as we know it) gone.

This gives the creative team free license to take the SW universe into new areas.

What I hope this means is new Jedi (Force users) powers and new conflicts. Perhaps taking the journey into the outer rim areas we hear about and seeing things we have never seen before.

I know there is a huge part of the fan base that wants to stick with the established rules and order of conflict and drama establishes by previous films....

But if there is one thing I have learned from watching Clone Wars and Rebels is there is a lot to be said for the stories that go outside the established arcs we are all comfortable with.

I think seeing the birth of new Jedi (Force users) , not constrained by the rules of the Jedi order, (the rules and the hierarchy)is an interesting idea, and it sets up more possible drama and story besides the good Jedi versus the Evil Sith.


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[jal76]

Great point about how strong the story telling has been in Clone Wars and Rebels...the Mortis Trilogy in Clone Wars alone does so much to expand on the existing Star Wars mythology!

 

[a-dev]

I am actually thinking the route they will go is to have everything burned down...as they have continually hinted at.

The rebellion gone
The Empire and FO gone.
The Jedi and Sith (as we know it) gone.

This gives the creative team free license to take the SW universe into new areas.

You mean like they could have done with this ST in the first place?

 

[xipotec]

I think so, but they wanted to show how things got reset to like it was before the Jedi counsel.

They could have just put that into the opening crawl....but it probably would have been difficult to include the new cast in that.

Again this trilogy is likely showing how things fell apart....and a new type of force user is born.

So it not really that unusual to show it happen....they have time to do plenty of films.


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[DiFabio]

Think they'll ever do the same with Rey?

You mean like they could have done with this ST in the first place?

 

[crows]

Yep...I remember it a bit differently and certainly do not recall anyone who likes TLJ insulting...well...anyone...but...I'm going to let you have it...because based upon the sheer frequency of your round the clock posts and your ability to reference old thread arguments like they were milestones in your life I suspect you might need it...so...you win...we're all nasty and negative insult specialists...enjoy...

ill accept your defeat, ill accept you admitting you were wrong for sure.

im still waiting for your negative opinion on jye and khev and trash panda for their constant posting as well, their daily posting, all of them have bigger post counts than me,

so you must REALLY hate them.... right?
i mean, jye literally posts three times more than me, i can even prove it

(You DO understand that your negative comments also apply to them right?)

 

[Khev]

It’s amusing how some of those with the most abrasive anti-snowflake/soyboi/cuck postures take no responsibility for their own behavior, but blame the mods/CoC/other members for all of their woes.

You know when you’re being a troll.

Howsabout everyone just own their ********, pro and con, and let’s crack on?

On that note, as one who would be categorized as a “lover” - I generally disliked the novelization but at the start of Luke’s narrative there was an interesting idea. He has a bit of a daydream about what his life would have amounted to if he’d just settled down with the Toshi Station ****o lady on the farm and it’s presented as a very happy alternative.

It made me think about Luke’s journey. While heroic, it really is very sad.

I don’t fret over coulda-woulda-shouldas but I really liked this idea and wonder how it’s inclusion might have colored the perception of the state we find Luke in at the start of TLJ.

Did the novelization say that Luke had had a wife between ROTJ and TLJ? I thought I read that somewhere. Whether it did or didn't that's one nice thing about the 30+ year gap. It allows the assumption of many years of peace and happiness prior to Ben Solo's fall and things going to pot again. I like that as it still allows me to assume that the victory in ROTJ still really counted for something (20 years of peace after the Empire had reigned for 20 years) before the FO came to power.

They turned Luke into somewhat of a tragic figure, one that was believable in my eyes. Heroes fall to their own frailties sometimes, making him a beacon of good, and an unfaltering hero seems too easy and unrealistic. Sooner or later doubt and regret can chip away at our souls, and Luke was an excellent example of that. I applaud those who took his character in that daunting direction, I'm sure some might have expected it wouldn't play well with everybody, but it was brave nonetheless and for me at least, it led to a very satisfying story.

Count me in as a TLJ lover.

The truth is, no matter what the story was, many would have been up and arms over it, I'm just glad the filmmakers didn't play it safe.

Yep, "doing something different" can always backfire or be bad (as many TLJ haters obviously claim for this particular film) but I really love that at the end of the day neither TFA nor TLJ sat on their laurels and went for the low hanging fan service. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to simply have Han, Luke, and Leia together again, kicking *** and all that or Luke using the Force to lift AT-AT's, make Star Destroyers crash or what have you and I think it's great that they put story over uninspired fan pandering.

Now do I love everything about the "story" that they *did* choose? I can't say 100% yes but I'll take it because I never thought I'd watch a SW film (with OT heroes no less) that went in unexpected directions again. Also for any flaws the good still far outweighs the bad IMO.

Think they'll ever do the same with Rey?

Daisy has publicly stated that she's done after Episode IX but obviously never say never because for many years Ford said that he didn't like Han Solo and would never return to the role either. I think the "Mary Sue" comments and backlash really got to Ridley (she terminated all of her social media accounts the week after TLJ was released) and that for her the SW honeymoon is largely over.

I am actually thinking the route they will go is to have everything burned down...as they have continually hinted at.

The rebellion gone
The Empire and FO gone.
The Jedi and Sith (as we know it) gone.

This gives the creative team free license to take the SW universe into new areas.

Well as a-dev said the Empire/Rebellion conflict was over (dead if you will) 30 years ago and LFL went out of their way to resurrect it so if they wanted to go in a new direction they could have already done that with TFA. What's interesting is just how many people have latched on to the main villain's mantra as if it's the official company line of Disney itself. Of course they don't want to "kill the past" they want to milk it for all it's worth. If Ford didn't demand to die you know that they would have enlisted him for the long haul. Going by the logic of many naysayers I guess Disney also wants to murder half the universe. Not a great way to sell tickets.

 

[jal76]

In the novelization he does not actually have a wife but it opens with Luke's dream of what could have been if R2D2 had not run away and instead Stormtroopers had showed up the next day and Uncle Owen had simply handed the droids over to them. It's a great sequence. He has a wife and remembers the Leia hologram and has been haunted by what it all must have meant. The other cool thing is this sequence, maybe inadvertently sets up the Rey character as married Luke in the dream has the nickname "Lucky" because without realizing it he uses the force to help himself to become a more successful moisture farmer...made me think about the force guiding Rey to the best junk to scavenge for her portions....

 

[rushmore223]

Did the novelization say that Luke had had a wife between ROTJ and TLJ? I thought I read that somewhere. Whether it did or didn't that's one nice thing about the 30+ year gap. It allows the assumption of many years of peace and happiness prior to Ben Solo's fall and things going to pot again. I like that as it still allows me to assume that the victory in ROTJ still really counted for something (20 years of peace after the Empire had reigned for 20 years) before the FO came to power.



Yep, "doing something different" can always backfire or be bad (as many TLJ haters obviously claim for this particular film) but I really love that at the end of the day neither TFA nor TLJ sat on their laurels and went for the low hanging fan service. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to simply have Han, Luke, and Leia together again, kicking *** and all that or Luke using the Force to lift AT-AT's, make Star Destroyers crash or what have you and I think it's great that they put story over uninspired fan pandering.

Now do I love everything about the "story" that they *did* choose? I can't say 100% yes but I'll take it because I never thought I'd watch a SW film (with OT heroes no less) that went in unexpected directions again. Also for any flaws the good still far outweighs the bad IMO.



Daisy has publicly stated that she's done after Episode IX but obviously never say never because for many years Ford said that he didn't like Han Solo and would never return to the role either. I think the "Mary Sue" comments and backlash really got to Ridley (she terminated all of her social media accounts the week after TLJ was released) and that for her the SW honeymoon is largely over.



Well as a-dev said the Empire/Rebellion conflict was over (dead if you will) 30 years ago and LFL went out of their way to resurrect it so if they wanted to go in a new direction they could have already done that with TFA. What's interesting is just how many people have latched on to the main villain's mantra as if it's the official company line of Disney itself. Of course they don't want to "kill the past" they want to milk it for all it's worth. If Ford didn't demand to die you know that they would have enlisted him for the long haul. Going by the logic of many naysayers I guess Disney also wants to murder half the universe. Not a great way to sell tickets.

Sure, any one of us would have come up with a different story, and to say that I loved the movie is, of course, not saying its perfect.

I still dislike the "Space Leia" scene, I think they could have demonstrated her force connection in other ways.

I think Holdo was unnecessary, her portion of the story could have been handled by Leia, but her existence doesn't anger me as it does several people on this forum.

I think the Cave/hole scene was perhaps not straightforward enough for some people, but I'm ok with it.

Maz. Why even bother. Didn't like Maz in TFA, still don't like her.

Other than those nitpicks, and they are nitpicks, I'm good.

Luke was great. Rey/Kylo, and by extension Snoke was brilliantly done and unexpected. Yes, I know, so many complaining that they killed the "Main Villain" in the middle chapter, but guess what, he wasn't the main villain. He's what they call an albatross or Red Herring. This is almost 100% Rey and Kylo's story, and I'm glad, because Adam Driver has done a fantastic job with creating a layered antagonist.

For the first time in a Star Wars movie, I have no clear idea of where they are going with this, and that is far more exciting than any cliffhanger.

 

[Khev]

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of the above. And while I can't say I'm a huge "fan" per se of Space Leia it doesn't bother me like some. Still a million times better than actually having Carrie Fisher wield a lightsaber IMO though. Force connection or not I've always hated that idea since the early 90's when the EU took her in that direction. It just never felt right for her character.

 

[Smash]

I think Space Leia would have come across better as her pulling herself to the ship if the camera angle had been from behind her, and just have the ship getting bigger. Or something. It was mostly the flying across the screen thing that made it look off to me. I still like that Leia finally got to use the force. And honestly, even if they're a bit cheesy, it's nice that she got some great moments in TLJ with it unknowingly being her last movie. Her blowing up the door to the bridge and entering ala Vader in ANH is great. That and her scene with Luke are my two favorite scenes she has in TLJ.

I kinda wish Canto Bight would've spent more time in actual Canto Bight instead of the chase. The initial leaks sounded a bit cooler to me. They were probably always wrong, but what we heard was that Finn and Rose were going to have to find a way to break the "hacker" out of Prison, and that they'd go under cover as gamblers, etc.

 

[guyver1]

Hopefully JJ restores this concept which Johnson completely ignored

 

[Smash]

Hopefully JJ restores this concept which Johnson completely ignored

I mentioned it in the IX thread, but if anything I think TLJ set them up to be in IX way more than TFA did for TLJ. Also, it's kind of cool that JJ gets to be the one to use them if he wants to - seeing as they're his creation.

 

[rushmore223]

Yeah I pretty much agree with all of the above. And while I can't say I'm a huge "fan" per se of Space Leia it doesn't bother me like some. Still a million times better than actually having Carrie Fisher wield a lightsaber IMO though. Force connection or not I've always hated that idea since the early 90's when the EU took her in that direction. It just never felt right for her character.

Yes, Leia fighting with a lightsaber would have been horrifically bad. I never read any of the EU, but thanks to friends, I was aware of that, and it sounded like a horrible idea even 20 years ago.