Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[Prime Clone]

I always assume that most sensible fans of a franchise would *want* to like a new installment

I liked the prequels because they were Star Wars, now I like the sequels because they're Star Wars.

Maybe I'm setting the bar too low...

 

[DarthBakura]

Her failures have no real consequence.. Luke still shows up and her attempt to get Kylo could be looked at as a big win if one looks at the fact that Snoke gets killed.. Now there is one big baddie instead of two.

Kylo doesn’t need a master anymore though. The fact that he killed Snoke proves it. I’d even say he did him dirtier than Palpatine, with regards to Plagueis.

So, having only one titular baddie will be an interesting departure. Although, I do hope Kylo will at least enlist the services of a skilled warrior. Preferably some kind of bounty hunter? Would be cool to have a new Boba, if done right.

 

[loki2371]

Kylo doesn’t need a master anymore though. The fact that he killed Snoke proves it. I’d even say he did him dirtier than Palpatine, with regards to Plagueis.

Well, I guess that's the end of seeing a Dark Side user use force lightning. Something tells me Snoke never taught that to Kylo, as he said he never completed his training. If Kylo did know he would have used it during one of his 30 year old teen angst tantrums to prove to everyone in the FO how evil and powerful he is. And instead of force pushing Hux the old fashioned way, he'd have zapped him good and we could've seen Hux wet himself too. That would have been an even bigger laugh. Such great comedy beats in SW now. That Hux, such a dumb and useless tool. Oh well.

But then again, under the new regime it seems training is only for the old fashioned folks. This new generation can do it all without even breaking a sweat. They just need to have the will to make it so. I'm sure Rey will just figure it out on her own since she seems to be the most powerful Jedi ever. I'm sure it's all detailed in the manuals she snuck off Achoo island. Maybe she'll teach it to Kylo accidentally through their force skyping, since it seemed in TFA Rey easily learned the Jedi mind trick during Kylo's force mind probing.. That would be cool. Who needs to see lightsaber on lightsaber dueling anymore. Been there done that. I want to see a force lightning fight!! Something new and unexpected just like Johnson did in TLJ. Everything new and fresh. Forget the old stuff.

Whatever with that old ****... Same old over and over again. Who wants to see cool training scenes anymore or characters actually grow and develop on screen as to have the audience invested in the characters progression. That's old school Lucas OT & PT thinking. They can just project knowledge into each other brains. Such a cool new concept.

I love these new ST movies... Disney, Kennedy & Johnson for the win. So looking forward to the all new unexpected and even funnier comedic scenes in Ep9...

 

[DarthBakura]

So, you’re complaining that a Dark Side user took out his master, whom he had become disenchanted with? And before he completed his training?

The Dark Side isn’t exactly known for patience and skill. More often than not, it’s main draw is blind ambition and power. He saw his opportunity and he took it. It’s entirely believable to me. It’s not been done on film before, so it will be interesting to see where it leads.

By the way, the only ones to actually use force lightning in the films have been Palpatine, Count Dooku and Snoke. So, it’s not like Kylo is missing out. And he could technically still try and learn it from any archives or manuscripts that Snoke left behind.

 

[klwn]

Well, I guess that's the end of seeing a Dark Side user use force lightning. Something tells me Snoke never taught that to Kylo, as he said he never completed his training. If Kylo did know he would have used it during one of his 30 year old teen angst tantrums to prove to everyone in the FO how evil and powerful he is. And instead of force pushing Hux the old fashioned way, he'd have zapped him good and we could've seen Hux wet himself too. That would have been an even bigger laugh. Such great comedy beats in SW now. That Hux, such a dumb and useless tool. Oh well.

First thing that came to mind as well
Can't wait to see him learn Force lightning in a book just like Rey is going to learn everything from the Jedi books as well.

I completely disagree that Kylo didn't need more training. I don't care if it's not explicitly said, if you know Star Wars it's just common sense. Oh yeah and Snoke said he is going to complete his training at the end of TFA.
He is freakin' 29 and was taught as a Jedi for a huge part of his life. He barely knows the dark side, it takes decades to master. He doesn't even seem like he has embraced it yet. Killing a guy worse than you (Snoke) and sparing your mom doesn't make you more powerful in the dark side.

Palpatine killed Plagueis around when he became Chancellor so he was way older than Kylo and had just reached a stage where he felt like he didn't need a master anymore.
An apprentice kills his master when he feels like he has nothing left to learn from him. Does anyone seriously think Kylo had nothing left to learn from Snoke? Snoke was shown as his superior in the Force. Yes, Kylo killed him but that's not representative of the power/knowledge gap. It was just a sneaky betrayal, not an actual fight. How Kylo behaved when Snoke was reprimanding him (like a b*tch) is what represents the power/knowledge gap here.

 

[automaton]

saw the film for a second time this weekend... i appreciated it even more.

 

[DarthBakura]

Everyone starts somewhere. The precursors to both the Jedi and the Sith. The Je’daii. They all had to find their way. So, maybe he didn’t receive the almighty training Snoke intended. Perhaps it will be the reason he turns away from the Dark Side? Or that he’s defeated?

It’s highly possible that he could attain some small measure of knowledge and power through other means. However, that’s not even really the point. Kylo wants to be done with tradition. He pretty much made that clear. He felt both of his masters betrayed him, in a sense.

At any rate, he’s just one pawn of the Force and the Dark Side. I highly doubt he’s going to become the beacon for future generations to come. There’s no need to be doom and gloom. We could’ve gotten regurgitated content, ahem. At least it’s something new and interesting. Sure, it’s unorthodox, but you really think events like that wouldn’t transpire naturally?

 

[Star Puffs]

saw the film for a second time this weekend... i appreciated it even more.

Username checks out. Disney appreciates your business.

 

[Bravomite]

Username checks out. Disney appreciates your business.

 

[klwn]

Everyone starts somewhere. The precursors to both the Jedi and the Sith. The Je’daii. They all had to find their way. So, maybe he didn’t receive the almighty training Snoke intended. Perhaps it will be the reason he turns away from the Dark Side? Or that he’s defeated?

It’s highly possible that he could attain some small measure of knowledge and power through other means. However, that’s not even really the point. Kylo wants to be done with tradition. He pretty much made that clear. He felt both of his masters betrayed him, in a sense.

At any rate, he’s just one pawn of the Force and the Dark Side. I highly doubt he’s going to become the beacon for future generations to come. There’s no need to be doom and gloom. We could’ve gotten regurgitated content, ahem. At least it’s something new and interesting. Sure, it’s unorthodox, but you really think events like that wouldn’t transpire naturally?

Although I do understand the decision to move away from the Sith religion (at least for a while), the dark side should remain characterized by an unquenchable thirst for power. And I can't accept the idea of him turning back to the light anymore. He's just done too much. Or if he does he should die right after, like Vader. He is an absolute monster, you can't get that expunged.

Kylo fails to embody the power obsessed dark sider for me. First with the general vibe of the character, but more importantly after he killed his main resource.
Yes, he took over, but that's political/military power. Sidious knew that wasn't enough, which is shown (poorly) in ROTS, when he eventually finds himself in a situation of danger without anyone to protect him, twice. In that moment, political power has no impact, what matters is his decades of learning, training and research, or he would be dead in an instant with four Jedi in front of him (and yes, again, the way this was executed is awful, but I'm just focusing on the story here) or fighting Yoda.

Obviously I get that Kylo knew this would probably be his only chance to get rid of Snoke until he became more powerful than him (so, decades), and also probably hoped that it would be a way to turn Rey at the same time.
But the issue remains that he has no guide for what's to come. The dark side has been established as this really complex and weird thing that's passed down through rituals and all kinds of crazy training sessions and missions. That's the compass Snoke was for him. Now it's gonna be really tricky to establish Kylo as a real menace to Rey, and a 'wise' dark side character. He is so messed up at the end of TLJ, no self-control, nothing wise and cunning about him. Just pure rage and aggression, a blunt tool kinda like Darth Maul. That's not gonna cut it without a huge time gap and some explanation about his evolution in the meantime.

I hope that's what JJ is planning because if IX picks up shortly after TLJ... yeah, don't even wanna think about it

 

[DarthBakura]

They do need a time gap of a few years. It could explain away Leia’s absence and maybe even provide some artistic closure with a funeral procession.

By the way, I would most certainly watch Darth Maul become a blunt instrument of death for an entire movie. Not going to lie.

Just make the whole movie about his trials and I’m good. Or at least give us the equivalent to Maul. It can’t be Kylo, even if that’s perhaps what the underlying intentions are. He busted up his helmet and he’s unlikely to forge another like it.

 

[jal76]

First thing that came to mind as well
Can't wait to see him learn Force lightning in a book just like Rey is going to learn everything from the Jedi books as well.

I completely disagree that Kylo didn't need more training. I don't care if it's not explicitly said, if you know Star Wars it's just common sense. Oh yeah and Snoke said he is going to complete his training at the end of TFA.
He is freakin' 29 and was taught as a Jedi for a huge part of his life. He barely knows the dark side, it takes decades to master. He doesn't even seem like he has embraced it yet. Killing a guy worse than you (Snoke) and sparing your mom doesn't make you more powerful in the dark side.

Palpatine killed Plagueis around when he became Chancellor so he was way older than Kylo and had just reached a stage where he felt like he didn't need a master anymore.
An apprentice kills his master when he feels like he has nothing left to learn from him. Does anyone seriously think Kylo had nothing left to learn from Snoke? Snoke was shown as his superior in the Force. Yes, Kylo killed him but that's not representative of the power/knowledge gap. It was just a sneaky betrayal, not an actual fight. How Kylo behaved when Snoke was reprimanding him (like a b*tch) is what represents the power/knowledge gap here.

Perfect example of Last Jedi disappointment being fueled by its failure to conform to fan Head Canon. How do you know how long it takes to complete force training and to go so far as to say "anyone who knows Star Wars knows..." is really strange...so to be a real Star Wars fan you need to be an expert on this forum poster's personal fan theories about Star Wars??? All of the business about Palpatine killing Plagueis as Chancellor...more stuff that has nothing to do with Star Wars canon. Palpatine killed Plagueis but you don't know when that happened...we do know that based upon the internal logic of the film's he already was onto his second apprentice when he became Chancellor so it wasn't then...just because it was in a non-canonical book does not mean the filmmakers need to be beholden to it.

 

[crows]

Perfect example of Last Jedi disappointment being fueled by its failure to conform to fan Head Canon. How do you know how long it takes to complete force training and to go so far as to say "anyone who knows Star Wars knows..." is really strange...so to be a real Star Wars fan you need to be an expert on this forum poster's personal fan theories about Star Wars??? All of the business about Palpatine killing Plagueis as Chancellor...more stuff that has nothing to do with Star Wars canon. Palpatine killed Plagueis but you don't know when that happened...we do know that based upon the internal logic of the film's he already was onto his second apprentice when he became Chancellor so it wasn't them...just because it was in a non-canonical book does not mean the filmmakers need to be beholden to it.

The force is space magic.
It doesnt have to make sense.

Its like how stuff in harry potter dont always make sense. You are not supposed to question it

 

[Darth Snoopy]

SW is always a hard discussion to walk away from.

No it isn't; Not in this thread anyway.

 

[jal76]

The force is space magic.
It doesnt have to make sense.

Its like how stuff in harry potter dont always make sense. You are not supposed to question it

Well...yeah...it is "space magic" and it doesn't make sense and if I question it the answer is NO...because...it doesn't make sense...unless there is a scientific explanation that someone would care to share. Luckily it's a MOVIE so I can still enjoy the space magic that does not make sense without it ruining the movie for me.

 

[klwn]

Right because that's the only part that disappointed me or other people in TLJ

It's not about head canon, it's about the internal logic of the pre-established universe. A 29 year old emo boy who turned to the dark side a few years prior isn't going to surpass his master just like that. And again, it was shown in the movie anyway, he was inferior to Snoke. When Snoke attacked him with Force lightning, Kylo was about to protest. Why do you think he didn't try arguing after that? Because he couldn't do anything, he was powerless against him and he knew it. It's just logic, it's shown on screen.

Not to mention he almost died against the guards and was only fighting half of them. You think Snoke would have guards around him that he wouldn't be able to defeat all by himself in case of treason?

From the canon part of the wiki, after Sidious found Maul (could be any time after that, immediately or years later):

"As the Rule of Two mandated that only two Sith—a master and an apprentice—could exist at any given time, one of them had to die. Now that he had no further use for a teacher, Sidious disposed of Plagueis, killing him in his sleep."

At that point, due to his age, even if we assume he killed Plagueis when Maul was still a child, Palpatine already had decades of learning under Plagueis.
Not only that but he started as a Sith. Unlike Kylo, Palpatine never spent years learning as a Jedi. He started his training being introduced to the dark side, that's a massive jump start.

In TFA Snoke literally says he needs to complete Kylo's training. He sees he isn't ready, and reminds him in the throne room scene leading to the destruction of the helmet. Kylo got zero training in TLJ, he found a clever way to kill Snoke, that's it. So he is exactly where he was at in TFA. He is the same dark side user. He couldn't even best Rey when they Force pulled on the lightsaber, AGAIN. And meanwhile Rey is getting more powerful by the minute. If you can't see the issue, I don't know what to say. Good for you if you think Kylo is awesome, I guess.

 

[crows]

 

[Prime Clone]

Good for you if you think Kylo is awesome, I guess.

Well, if he *is* the sole remaining Skywalker I guess we *have* to like him now!

 

[klwn]

Well, if he *is* the sole remaining Skywalker I guess we *have* to like him now!

Ahh crap

 

[DarthBakura]

And therein lies the fallacy of these preconceived ideals. Kylo Ren, the Knights of Ren, Snoke... they are not Sith. Even though Snoke was loosely using Sith teachings as a template for his rule, he likely considered himself beyond the Sith, due to his huge ego.

Abrams intentionally made them all ambiguous, to match the original trilogy. He wanted to capture some of the mystery that those films initially had.

George Lucas’ biggest failing was his constant desire to explain away and overanalyze all of his concepts. Sure, there is now a ton of lore about the Sith and the Jedi and the Universe is relatively better off for it. However, I also think you can become trapped by it. Especially if no one can step out of what’s become the established order, without some kind of volatile backlash.