Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

Collector Freaks Forum

Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.
What's interesting about this tsunami of fawning-over-Rian articles like this about the "Holdo Maneuver" (which sounds like a Tantric lovemaking technique btw):

https://www.inverse.com/article/40534-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-holdo-maneuver-hyperdrive-plot-hole

Is that the author raises the question about how the scene:

"left a lot of people wondering why we haven’t seen people do this before in the Star Wars universe? If it’s such a brutally efficient tactic, then you’d imagine that the Empire or the First Order would rig ships to jump to lightspeed right into any major threat. Therein lies the assumed plot hole, because space warfare in Star Wars might never be the same."


... yet they then conveniently divert off to a pointless discussion about the real science of lightspeed, which - given that SW isn't really sci-fi - is not even relevant. Then the article just... ends. Without ever even drilling down on the core "plot hole" that is the title of the article.

What's presented by Rian Johnson makes zero sense - "The fact that Hux doesn’t see it coming means it’s probably not a standard military maneuver" and the article's enabling author chimes in with "It might even be some kind of galactic war crime."

Like... since when does the Empire care about a war crime? It's pretty significant that someone at the level of Rian Johnson is trying to weigh in on this - and equally significant that he's having zero success trying to rationalize it.

My take on a retcon is if they increase your appreciation for what was previously established, then they are acceptable. Luke being Vader's son is obvously far more dramatic and cool than Luke's dad being killed by Vader. But with this weaponized hyperdrive thing - it makes BOTH sides of the battle in the OT look like idiots for not using it.

This is pure genius:

"Johnson notes that there are ways the Lucasfilm Story Group could build it back into canon, suggesting that it might just be an outlawed military maneuver that Holdo “pulled out of her butt” as a “spur of the moment thing.”

"Ways"? Just not any of the "ways" they've tried to use in this article, or ANYTHING Johnson has said in the article though right? But it's this kind of garbage that I take offense to:

"A much shorter explanation comes when you just accept that with The Last Jedi, Johnson preferred artistic form over function. He’d rather give us a visual spectacle with his Star Wars movie, one that respected his artistic integrity more than an obsession with canon. Maybe we should all learn to be okay with that."

Ohhhhhh... it's the "artistic" defense. You know - you plebians and canon sticklers be damned. Bottom line - if it makes no sense, we call it "artistic license," give a knowing nod and move on.

My equally considered, philosophically rationalized response is: "**** you.":lol
 

giphy.gif




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
It would have been much easier to rationalize the Holdo Maneuver in terms of cost. Sacrificing entire ships (with or without personnel) would be so cost-prohibitive - especially for the Resistance - it would only be done in extreme circumstances.

I guess you could argue, why not design a fleet of small, cheap, unmanned, hyperspace-capable ships that could be used to similar effect? To which I say: Maybe the same reason they don’t have nukes? (i.e. I have no idea!)
 
It would have been much easier to rationalize the Holdo Maneuver in terms of cost. Sacrificing entire ships (with or without personnel) would be so cost-prohibitive - especially for the Resistance - it would only be done in extreme circumstances.

I guess you could argue, why not design a fleet of small, cheap, unmanned, hyperspace-capable ships that could be used to similar effect? To which I say: Maybe the same reason they don’t have nukes? (i.e. I have no idea!)

Kinda like the Vulture Droids, the Droid Tri-Fighter, & the Hyena Droid Bombers the Trade Federation used in EPI? Some 50 years before TLJ?
 
What's interesting about this tsunami of fawning-over-Rian articles like this about the "Holdo Maneuver" (which sounds like a Tantric lovemaking technique btw):

https://www.inverse.com/article/40534-the-last-jedi-rian-johnson-holdo-maneuver-hyperdrive-plot-hole

Is that the author raises the question about how the scene:

"left a lot of people wondering why we haven’t seen people do this before in the Star Wars universe? If it’s such a brutally efficient tactic, then you’d imagine that the Empire or the First Order would rig ships to jump to lightspeed right into any major threat. Therein lies the assumed plot hole, because space warfare in Star Wars might never be the same."


... yet they then conveniently divert off to a pointless discussion about the real science of lightspeed, which - given that SW isn't really sci-fi - is not even relevant. Then the article just... ends. Without ever even drilling down on the core "plot hole" that is the title of the article.

What's presented by Rian Johnson makes zero sense - "The fact that Hux doesn’t see it coming means it’s probably not a standard military maneuver" and the article's enabling author chimes in with "It might even be some kind of galactic war crime."

Like... since when does the Empire care about a war crime? It's pretty significant that someone at the level of Rian Johnson is trying to weigh in on this - and equally significant that he's having zero success trying to rationalize it.

My take on a retcon is if they increase your appreciation for what was previously established, then they are acceptable. Luke being Vader's son is obvously far more dramatic and cool than Luke's dad being killed by Vader. But with this weaponized hyperdrive thing - it makes BOTH sides of the battle in the OT look like idiots for not using it.

This is pure genius:

"Johnson notes that there are ways the Lucasfilm Story Group could build it back into canon, suggesting that it might just be an outlawed military maneuver that Holdo “pulled out of her butt” as a “spur of the moment thing.”

"Ways"? Just not any of the "ways" they've tried to use in this article, or ANYTHING Johnson has said in the article though right? But it's this kind of garbage that I take offense to:

"A much shorter explanation comes when you just accept that with The Last Jedi, Johnson preferred artistic form over function. He’d rather give us a visual spectacle with his Star Wars movie, one that respected his artistic integrity more than an obsession with canon. Maybe we should all learn to be okay with that."

Ohhhhhh... it's the "artistic" defense. You know - you plebians and canon sticklers be damned. Bottom line - if it makes no sense, we call it "artistic license," give a knowing nod and move on.

My equally considered, philosophically rationalized response is: "**** you.":lol

"The fact that Hux doesn’t see it coming means it’s probably not a standard military maneuver" and the article's enabling author chimes in with "It might even be some kind of galactic war crime."

thats how the real world works as well, the reason our military doesnt do kamikaze attacks is because it is not seen as a good, rational way of defeating the enemy.
in our modern times the only people that do this are terrorists. So Ruin Johnson literally turns the good guys into terrorists with that maneuver.
You can argue that they had no other choice or that this was the only way to defeat them. but the ship was empty and everyone else already left. so technically she had no reason to do what she did. I mean yes, she destroyed that other ship, but she really didnt have to.
 
"Know thy enemy."

;)

Technically: "Know thine enemy."

Oh and...:lecture

You know I love to add that one.:lol

That's funny - Kylo's most unique force power - murder alarm clock. :lol

Third time's the charm, right?

Srsly though it adds more pathos to the character for me. Whatever kind of little ******* he might have been it seems like (without any specifics about his childhood) he's been all but encouraged to compare himself to Anakin and objectified by both sides, including his parents (though it is implied that Han was not on board). Perhaps Luke's strongest moment is admitting his failure.

No, while it was not his greatest power, Kylo's most unique force power was actually control over the size of his nipples.

"The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."
 
Putting established (and to some degree squeaky-clean) heroes into the darkest, most twisted places imaginable is not the same thing as taking pre-existing mythology and not just subverting it, but mocking it (including by breaking the fourth wall.)



Trying to suggest that the young Luke seen battling Vader in ROTJ - and knowing everything that was at stake in that moment - is the same as a 30 year older Luke, now a mentor and teacher, attempting to murder his NEPEHEW - and Han's son - is the height of ridicularity. And yes, that deserved a newly created word.



Said it before, I'll say it again - the logo at the start of the film has absoleutly no bearing on the film in terms of me going in with some kind of mouse-house prejudice. This "Disney-fied" thing is just a cop-out.

And the fact that Disney has now bought Fox - nearly the exact opposite of a company like Pixar - says this "Disney-fied" thing is even less pertinent than it allegedly was.

While it is true that Disney created Touchstone Picts (and later, Hollywood Picts) for more "adult" fare - "Splash" was its first movie - the reality is that what was a kids movie twenty years ago is way too tame for kids today.



In the comics Tony returns to being a weapons dealer too - over and over. He supposedly has a "creed" of who he sells to, but that's a little subjective.



ROTJ was attempting to tie up the disparate threads of some of the best storytelling in film history and suffered because of it - it was painted into a corner in about ten different ways. TLJ had no such restrictions - it could have gone anywhere. And... it went where it did. Where even a #1 fan like you admit it set up nothing in the characters or story that creates hunger to see IX. I know you've tried to soft-pedal that with a "I don't need that" but given TLJ is the middle film, it's a huge problem for Disney, for the ST, and therefore SW in general.

TLJ screwed the pooch in terms of keeping demand high. It is landing at 1.35B - and much of that is momentum from TFA. The question is: where are we heading now with a film that has deeply divided fans and even has #1 fans admitting they're aren't all that excited about IX.

TFA made what it did because it was the long-awaited return of the OT timeline/heroes. TLJ made what it did due to the goodwill of TFA. IX will make what it makes largely due to whatever momentum or mojo was created by TLJ. And by all accounts, there is none.




We liked RO because they did the first successful conjoining surgery on a classic film. People don't love RO because of Jyn or Cassian - they were fine, but fans love it because it "feels" EXACTLY like an OT film, albeit one at least partly influenced by the stand-up comedy legacy of Christopher Nolan.




Unfortunately Luke's epic comeback will be framed by a hazy blue glow. I only recall Burgess Meredith dying, not Rocky.



As I said before...






I'm honestly glad you found resonance in it - seriously. For me, he had no arc in this movie. Movies often show characters who have shut down because of something they have done or had done to them in the past. The reluctance to face those things is what generates the inner journey. But in this, even his backstory was so muddled and opaque (and ages aside, why the Luke-accepting-Han/Leia's-son-as-protege storyline was treated as backstory is a bizarre question on its own when there is so much more drama then in Luke/Rey) and his interactions with Rey seem to mostly exist on a "mock the mythology" level - Luke's silly jokes poking fun at our "Luke as Yoda" expectations for example.

Luke's decision to phone in the final battle from the comfort of his island Jedi hover-cushion felt like the same guy we met when we arrived on Ach-choo... and then he inexplicably dies. Oh wait - no, he dies because there "happens" to be a non-sensical, in fact non-applicable line spoken by Kylo about force-texting and "the effort alone would kill you." :slap

Honestly, discussing TLJ is tricky because the movie is such a mess in such a multitude of overlapping ways; from its fundamentals (themes, plot, choice of characters) as a film in its own right, to its status as something that's supposed to fit into the OT and SW mythology, to the dozens of totally bizarre choices (all the gifs you've already seen.)

You really have to focus on one of the glaring flaws and work out from there, but you bump into so many other things that are utter train wrecks in their own right, the conversation widens and peters out just due to the scale and scope of the problems.:lol

TLJ rocked.
 
TLJ did a lot of things, but it most certainly did not "rock."

To quote Bart Simpson: "I didn't think it was physically possible but it both sucked and blowed."
 
I think what Khev meant was "The Last Jedi deserves to get Rocks Thrown at it" :lol
TLJ "get rocked" :lol

the movie deserves a stonin

tenor.gif
 
Last edited:
I've never seen a movie get more throughly BTFO than TLJ.


TLJ lovers and lil' Rian on suicide watch.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top