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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)
- Thread starter CallMeTheDoctor
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sounds like i hit a nerve, sorry. i hated the porgs up to opening night, they surprised me. 
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i hated the porgs up to opening night, they surprised me.
Well, yes I expected to dislike them. But they ended up to be endearing. Like Minions, but without the violence.
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i expected minions as well, but they weren’t nearly as annoying. really loved that chewy scene, poor guy.
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i expected minions as well, but they weren’t nearly as annoying. really loved that chewy scene, poor guy.
It was kind of shocking, when taken in the context of Disney's history!
Yet uniquely honest, when you also consider how some anthropomorphic animals co-exist in cartoons, whereas in real life they'd regard each other as dinner. Chewie being Chewie is thinking of his stomach.
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yeah i’m a meat and potatoes kind of dude but can respect cuteness. that poor, hungry son of a *****.
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yeah i’m a meat and potatoes kind of dude but can respect cuteness. that poor, hungry son of a *****.
It was like a reversal of this situation,
which came about due to this:
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humor is relatively speaking hit and miss, but for me it all worked in this one. I really like the opening gag between hux/poe too.
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Sounds like a fair assessment.
I happened to just check the Rotten Tomatoes score. It was 55%, then changed back to 56%, then back to 55%. So it's still dropping, teetering on the edge of a percentage point at the moment.
jimminy
Freaked Out
Look, there is a good chance that us having problems with it ARE being blinded by our prejudices. But we have raised concerns. It’s possible we are not seeing something. There might be connective tissue we are not perceiving. I mean, so many critics liked it, right? You would assume they would be looking more deeply than most moviegoers at structural things.
So, those who say the movie is good: open our eyes. Help us see. Explain to us what we might be missing. We are getting a bit of ‘read the wiki’ commentary back in reply, but I’m not seeing a lot of the concerns being explicitly addressed.
So, here are some questions that, if answered, could help us see …
***
Explain the purpose of Poe's story, narratively and thematically (what does it do for the plot, and how does it enhance themes).
Explain the purpose of the casino storyline, narratively and thematically.
Explain why Snoke was looking for Rey in TFA.
Explain why Luke left his trail of breadcrumbs in TFA.
Explain the logistics of the First Order’s universal takeover in the timeline of TFA to TLJ
Convince us that Luke would have been scared enough to consider killing his sleeping nephew. It’s a nice idea, but give us a trail of characterisation beats leading from ROTJ Luke to TLJ Luke so that we can see and understand.
Explain why Holdo and Leia withheld information consistently throughout.
Explain why Luke didn’t tell the Resistance to run if his force projection was intended to allow the Resistance to escape. Maybe Leia just ‘knew’, from the force. Explain why Leia didn’t just tell the rest of them to run.
Explain why space chase happened the way it did. Why could the First Order not send fighters. Why could they not jump behind the rebels. Why did the rebel ships stop when they ran out of fuel. What make ships going at a consistent speed ‘out of range’ to energy or projectiles in space. What is dissipating that energy so much.
What, as you see it, are the ‘messages’ of this movie?
What are the themes?
What is this movie about?
Should you obey and trust your elders? Are your elders potentially untrustworthy, and they should be seen through and taken down a peg by the younger generations?
Is violence a solution? Is war a solution?
Should there not be goodies and baddies? How does the movie present this? Are there any inconsistencies in this message? Why? What alternatives to goodies and baddies does the movie offer and encourage?
Explain what BB8 represents and how it fits into the themes and message. You know you could definitely answer these questions about R2D2 or C3P0 in the original trilogy. You could answer most of these general questions or these ‘explain this plot/character’ questions when it comes to the original trilogy.
Is TLJ about deconstruction and subversion? If so, explain to us how this theme is consistently conveyed.
Explain to us why being stuck on the island was thematically important enough to slow down the plot by literally having characters be stuck on an island.
Explain why you think the slow motion space battle was a good choice, in terms of narrative pacing and theme.
Explain what Porgs contributed to the movie, narratively and thematically. We saw them a lot. They were more than window dressing.
Explain why no one would have considered space kamikaze-ing against the death stars. Times were desperate.
***
Subjectively, it doesn’t matter if someone likes or dislikes a movie. Enjoy what you want. But questions are being asked about the objective coherence of this movie.
Basically, some of you are arguing that this movie is coherent. Others have given many examples of why they think the movie is incoherent. The burden of proof is on the folks saying it is coherent. Explain to us, and our minds may well change.
I can see two possible interpretations: that this is an exercise in post modernism. It wants to destroy Star Wars tropes, but also most adventure movie and kids’ movie tropes. It denies that any art should be expected to offer a message because life is full of conflicting messages. It challenges the idea that children should look to movies for life lessons. And so it offers intentionally conflicting messages, undermines Star Wars and adventure tropes at every turn, and is intentionally structurally messy. ‘I will not be what you want me to be, because you need to see that you should not want me, and that I offer no answers.’
Or, it wants to say that Star Wars has boxed itself in, and the only way out is to undermine tropes, defy narrative, transcend genre, and subvert expectations. It argues that narrative itself is irrelevant and that Star Wars must step beyond that, and do away with everything from ‘chosen one tropes’ to even foreshadowing and consistency, in order to escape itself. It wants to open up the universe, and the entire thing is a metanarrative statement on how art must be broken in order for new freedoms to emerge. And so it offers intentionally conflicting messages, undermines Star Wars and adventure tropes at every turn, and is intentionally structurally messy.
These are the only reasons I can think of, right now, to explain why the movie is the way it is, and why critics love it. It’s like a Sherlock episode where they intentionally offer a thousand fan theories to a mystery and then refuse to solve a mystery, thus turning the entire idea of a mystery show on its head. They refuse to offer the ‘return from chaos’ detective stories are designed to offer. What if we watched mystery shows actually for the mystery? How do we cope when resolution is denied? Do we solve the mystery ourselves, in our own way? Are we a participator, then, in the narrative? What is the position between viewer and creator in this experience?
What if we watch Star Wars just for the visuals? What if we broke the narrative, the fairytale imagery, and removed all the tropes … what is left? What can we do with that? Star Wars has been built up as being culturally important … what if we showed them it is ‘just a movie’ by making something that is clearly just a movie, because we have intentionally broken apart narrative and message to have a series of scenes and subplots with conflicting themes and messages, suggesting various possible ways of going in future? Will people still see such a thing? If yes, then now we are free of all restrictions of genre and storytelling, and so what do we do next?
What if Star Wars characters failed? What about if the prophecies and dynasties that ruled their lives shattered, so much so that characters become engaged in plot lines that mean nothing, and the expected logic between movies is broken as motivations shift and expectation is thwarted? What if we are watching some multiverse of Star Wars, with each scene taking place in an alternative reality? Infinite choices, infinite possibilities, and only imagery and certain faces to offer connection … but the faces do not even match the personalities we know, because these may be different people, from worlds we never saw, with unknowable life experiences …
I mean it only makes sense to me if it is meant to be completely metafictive and arthouse, but so far I’m not seeing many people defend it that way.
There are dozens of other things people have raised and it would be useful to have answers for … others should feel free to add questions. But this is a good starting point.
I mean I could try and get started:
Poe thinks he is the hero of his own movie. His heroism is outdated. He must learn to trust in his elders. The burden is not on him alone. He need not always try to find his own way. He need not run off and save everybody single-handed.
Rey thinks she is the hero of her own movie. She embraces light and darkness. But her elders are trapped in outdated ideas. She must learn not to trust her elders and find her own way. She must run off and save everybody single-handed.
The codebreaker tells us war is bad. Goodies and baddies do not exist. Third parties who sell mechanised weapons exploit people, and they alone profit from war. We must simply concern ourselves with our own survival, and leave others to their choices. Neutrality in all things, and balance.
BB8 is a weapon made by humans. He is also a good friend. He likes to go off on his own, by his own wits, and have daring adventures to save people. When he does it, it is good. When his master, Poe, does it, it is bad. He shoots hundreds of Stormtroopers, because Stormtroopers are baddies. When BB8 shoots Stormtroopers he is a goodie. He is also cute and funny.
So, those who say the movie is good: open our eyes. Help us see. Explain to us what we might be missing. We are getting a bit of ‘read the wiki’ commentary back in reply, but I’m not seeing a lot of the concerns being explicitly addressed.
So, here are some questions that, if answered, could help us see …
***
Explain the purpose of Poe's story, narratively and thematically (what does it do for the plot, and how does it enhance themes).
Explain the purpose of the casino storyline, narratively and thematically.
Explain why Snoke was looking for Rey in TFA.
Explain why Luke left his trail of breadcrumbs in TFA.
Explain the logistics of the First Order’s universal takeover in the timeline of TFA to TLJ
Convince us that Luke would have been scared enough to consider killing his sleeping nephew. It’s a nice idea, but give us a trail of characterisation beats leading from ROTJ Luke to TLJ Luke so that we can see and understand.
Explain why Holdo and Leia withheld information consistently throughout.
Explain why Luke didn’t tell the Resistance to run if his force projection was intended to allow the Resistance to escape. Maybe Leia just ‘knew’, from the force. Explain why Leia didn’t just tell the rest of them to run.
Explain why space chase happened the way it did. Why could the First Order not send fighters. Why could they not jump behind the rebels. Why did the rebel ships stop when they ran out of fuel. What make ships going at a consistent speed ‘out of range’ to energy or projectiles in space. What is dissipating that energy so much.
What, as you see it, are the ‘messages’ of this movie?
What are the themes?
What is this movie about?
Should you obey and trust your elders? Are your elders potentially untrustworthy, and they should be seen through and taken down a peg by the younger generations?
Is violence a solution? Is war a solution?
Should there not be goodies and baddies? How does the movie present this? Are there any inconsistencies in this message? Why? What alternatives to goodies and baddies does the movie offer and encourage?
Explain what BB8 represents and how it fits into the themes and message. You know you could definitely answer these questions about R2D2 or C3P0 in the original trilogy. You could answer most of these general questions or these ‘explain this plot/character’ questions when it comes to the original trilogy.
Is TLJ about deconstruction and subversion? If so, explain to us how this theme is consistently conveyed.
Explain to us why being stuck on the island was thematically important enough to slow down the plot by literally having characters be stuck on an island.
Explain why you think the slow motion space battle was a good choice, in terms of narrative pacing and theme.
Explain what Porgs contributed to the movie, narratively and thematically. We saw them a lot. They were more than window dressing.
Explain why no one would have considered space kamikaze-ing against the death stars. Times were desperate.
***
Subjectively, it doesn’t matter if someone likes or dislikes a movie. Enjoy what you want. But questions are being asked about the objective coherence of this movie.
Basically, some of you are arguing that this movie is coherent. Others have given many examples of why they think the movie is incoherent. The burden of proof is on the folks saying it is coherent. Explain to us, and our minds may well change.
I can see two possible interpretations: that this is an exercise in post modernism. It wants to destroy Star Wars tropes, but also most adventure movie and kids’ movie tropes. It denies that any art should be expected to offer a message because life is full of conflicting messages. It challenges the idea that children should look to movies for life lessons. And so it offers intentionally conflicting messages, undermines Star Wars and adventure tropes at every turn, and is intentionally structurally messy. ‘I will not be what you want me to be, because you need to see that you should not want me, and that I offer no answers.’
Or, it wants to say that Star Wars has boxed itself in, and the only way out is to undermine tropes, defy narrative, transcend genre, and subvert expectations. It argues that narrative itself is irrelevant and that Star Wars must step beyond that, and do away with everything from ‘chosen one tropes’ to even foreshadowing and consistency, in order to escape itself. It wants to open up the universe, and the entire thing is a metanarrative statement on how art must be broken in order for new freedoms to emerge. And so it offers intentionally conflicting messages, undermines Star Wars and adventure tropes at every turn, and is intentionally structurally messy.
These are the only reasons I can think of, right now, to explain why the movie is the way it is, and why critics love it. It’s like a Sherlock episode where they intentionally offer a thousand fan theories to a mystery and then refuse to solve a mystery, thus turning the entire idea of a mystery show on its head. They refuse to offer the ‘return from chaos’ detective stories are designed to offer. What if we watched mystery shows actually for the mystery? How do we cope when resolution is denied? Do we solve the mystery ourselves, in our own way? Are we a participator, then, in the narrative? What is the position between viewer and creator in this experience?
What if we watch Star Wars just for the visuals? What if we broke the narrative, the fairytale imagery, and removed all the tropes … what is left? What can we do with that? Star Wars has been built up as being culturally important … what if we showed them it is ‘just a movie’ by making something that is clearly just a movie, because we have intentionally broken apart narrative and message to have a series of scenes and subplots with conflicting themes and messages, suggesting various possible ways of going in future? Will people still see such a thing? If yes, then now we are free of all restrictions of genre and storytelling, and so what do we do next?
What if Star Wars characters failed? What about if the prophecies and dynasties that ruled their lives shattered, so much so that characters become engaged in plot lines that mean nothing, and the expected logic between movies is broken as motivations shift and expectation is thwarted? What if we are watching some multiverse of Star Wars, with each scene taking place in an alternative reality? Infinite choices, infinite possibilities, and only imagery and certain faces to offer connection … but the faces do not even match the personalities we know, because these may be different people, from worlds we never saw, with unknowable life experiences …
I mean it only makes sense to me if it is meant to be completely metafictive and arthouse, but so far I’m not seeing many people defend it that way.
There are dozens of other things people have raised and it would be useful to have answers for … others should feel free to add questions. But this is a good starting point.
I mean I could try and get started:
Poe thinks he is the hero of his own movie. His heroism is outdated. He must learn to trust in his elders. The burden is not on him alone. He need not always try to find his own way. He need not run off and save everybody single-handed.
Rey thinks she is the hero of her own movie. She embraces light and darkness. But her elders are trapped in outdated ideas. She must learn not to trust her elders and find her own way. She must run off and save everybody single-handed.
The codebreaker tells us war is bad. Goodies and baddies do not exist. Third parties who sell mechanised weapons exploit people, and they alone profit from war. We must simply concern ourselves with our own survival, and leave others to their choices. Neutrality in all things, and balance.
BB8 is a weapon made by humans. He is also a good friend. He likes to go off on his own, by his own wits, and have daring adventures to save people. When he does it, it is good. When his master, Poe, does it, it is bad. He shoots hundreds of Stormtroopers, because Stormtroopers are baddies. When BB8 shoots Stormtroopers he is a goodie. He is also cute and funny.
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holy ****.
Wow.
You should get some sort of award, like five years of "Premium Member" status for this sustained effort at trolling.
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Concerning the point about canon and the divergence the Sequels have made, the established EU had a ready made plot: the Solo family.
Jaina, Jacen and Anakin would've taken the story forward on film with a sense of continuity. There may have been the necessity to make Han and Leia appear younger, so that their children were also younger.
In place of that we got an older Han and Leia, and out of nowhere an evil, tormented man-child for a son.
That's the point of divergence that guides everything that follows. The man-child thing was awkward, and I watch these films feeling indifferent, thinking how much better they could've been but for a seemingly simple change.
Jaina, Jacen and Anakin would've taken the story forward on film with a sense of continuity. There may have been the necessity to make Han and Leia appear younger, so that their children were also younger.
In place of that we got an older Han and Leia, and out of nowhere an evil, tormented man-child for a son.
That's the point of divergence that guides everything that follows. The man-child thing was awkward, and I watch these films feeling indifferent, thinking how much better they could've been but for a seemingly simple change.
DarkChocobi
Lucas simp
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Seeing this pic i strongly believe Phasma is alive and will comeback to cause mayhem in epIX..just wait and see
Jme_c
Super Freak
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Everything you just said is completely wrong!
No one can dispute that they done Luke a huge injustice! He would never have contemplated murdering his nephew. Ren is 100% more conflicted than Vader ever was!
Prime Clone
Super Freak
Great post, but this bit in particular stood out to me. I didn’t hate TLJ but found myself thinking, if this is the new Star Wars maybe this old fossil’s time has passed.
I'm a Looper fan, I was so primed to love this movie.
People act like this is a "haters gonna hate" thing and with the ST, there's that extra layer of "uh-oh, the old guard likes the old" and "ew, not a fan of inclusion, huh?"
Much, much easier to be in the "love it!" camp.
Master retconner Leland Chee just wrote that down. Expect that on the next Twitter posting.
Fogged breath = cold. No fogged breath = not cold.
Umm... white mountainous landscape, ATAT's lumbering, Rebels facing them in trenches with laser turrets above, small makeshift rebel speeders rocketing along close to the ground, POV from ATAT cockpit with Commander and Dark Lord directing the shots, snowtroopers following Dark Lord into breached Rebel base?
What ISN'T Hoth? Other than the oh-so-subtly set up "blood dust" gimmick?
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