Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Dec 15th, 2017)

[jye4ever]

It doesn't matter what they do, the movie will be cried, tantrummed and ranted over no matter what happens in it.

I have come to believe that Star Wars fans are just (mostly) spoiled brats.

Too similar, too different!
Rey has to be a fresh character not related to anybody, Rey has to be a Skywalker!
Make up your minds, people!

Actually I agree with Difabio regarding that because even though on the outset it looks like TLJ did its own thing he provided enough evidence to show that TLJ aped ESB/ROTJ as much as TFA aped ANH.

And that’s fine because I think TLJ did a better job pulling from the OT than TFA did.

In other words I felt that TFA had really no stakes and weak thrills were TLJ had thrilling stakes at play.

The funny part is that i’m perfectly fine with the hate BECAUSE some of that hate is coming from some people who I hold their cinematic tastes in very high regard BUT at the end of the day I have a child I want to enjoy this stuff with and I MUCH PREFER to be a fun Khev when it comes to SW than giving myself standards set so high that I really would have no business even going to the movies because I would be disappointed 99.9% of the time.

As much as I don’t like the PT I still respect that my son likes them.

My son also loved TLJ more than TFA actually.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Yes that I totally agree with. The way they treat Force abilities/training compared to the "old" canon is a major issue.
All Anakin was able to do as a child was enhance his reflexes for pod racing, but now untrained Force sensitives can do advanced stuff out of nowhere.

Well, some will say that the prequels are the problem, that the OT never said that to use the force people needed some kind of training or awareness, but that's factually wrong.

Part of the heroes' journey in Luke's case, was discovering the force because of Ben, receiving some basic training to enhance his senses, and not to rely on just his eyes or physical senses, eventually accepting or "believing" in the force by the end of ANH, and then the sequels expanded that idea by providing Luke more training to develop the Jedi abilities.

Rey, Broom boy, they just....use the Jedi techniques. Did they know about the force? I don't know, because the films didn't bother to show it. So in Disney Wars, the force will now work like a mutant power. It will just manifest itself randomly and people will use the Jedi abilities as a plot device. It's smart and an easy explanation to introduce more characters...I'll give them that.

 

[SNIKT1950]

at the end of the day I have a child I want to enjoy this stuff with and I MUCH PREFER to be a fun Khev when it comes to SW than giving myself standards set so high that I really would have no business even going to the movies because I would be disappointed 99.9% of the time.

#Settling

 

[rushmore223]

Actually I agree with Difabio regarding that because even though on the outset it looks like TLJ did its own thing he provided enough evidence to show that TLJ aped ESB/ROTJ as much as TFA aped ANH.

And that’s fine because I think TLJ did a better job pulling from the OT than TFA did.

In other words I felt that TFA had really no stakes and weak thrills were TLJ had thrilling stakes at play.

The funny part is that i’m perfectly fine with the hate BECAUSE some of that hate is coming from some people who I hold their cinematic tastes in very high regard BUT at the end of the day I have a child I want to enjoy this stuff with and I MUCH PREFER to be a fun Khev when it comes to SW than giving myself standards set so high that I really would have no business even going to the movies because I would be disappointed 99.9% of the time.

As much as I don’t like the PT I still respect that my son likes them.

My son also loved TLJ more than TFA actually.

Too much grousing, seriously.

Guess I'm just more willing to take the ride rather than see my hopes and desires for a Star Wars movie somehow projected on the screen.

And I don't see how this film resembles Empire, with the exception of BDT's betrayal and the inevitable Jedi Training.

 

[Ehollywood]

 

[Spazz]

I just read an account of The Last Jedi backlash from Vox that, while completely misguided, I think accidentally grazes it's thumb across the reason why The Last Jedi is so controversial. From Vox,

"As Dave Schilling points out at Birth Movies Death, The Last Jedi is more or less a metaphorical depiction of the baby boomer generation (a generation that featured a lot of white dudes — good and bad — in positions of power) handing off leadership roles to younger generations, particularly millennials, who tend to be more racially diverse and to advocate having more women in positions of power. The series’ millennial good guys are a young woman, a black man, a woman of Asian descent, and a Latino man, while its millennial bad guys are two white dudes."

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/12/18/16791844/star-wars-last-jedi-backlash-controversy

I disagree with this explanation, but it does address something that's been bugging me, that I think bothers a lot of other people about this film on an almost subconscious level.

Star Wars was made for Generation X, and our Hippy Baby-boomer parents, once again, are leaving us as the latch-key kids of Western culture. The Hippies couldn't sell us on their ridiculous idealism as a generation, nor could they sell us their corporate culture once we were no longer kids, so they've decided to hand the keys for their intellectual property to millennials, who (like hippies) have that trademark "can do" attitude that coincides with irrational, optimistic, utopian pie-in-the-sky CONFORMITY.

Generation X is Han Solo, in a world where we're surrounded by Yodas and Porgs. They outnumber us on either side. And now the dorks of my generation, the corporate shills like Johnson are ensuring the Porgs have the keys to our culture. Could you imagine what Star Wars would've been like, if people who actually hated authority had their hands on it? The horror...


Edit: I think we need more writers like Charles Bukowski. If there's one thing he hated more than Hippies, it was Mickey Mouse.

 

[Popnfresh98]

Well, some will say that the prequels are the problem, that the OT never said that to use the force people needed some kind of training or awareness, but that's factually wrong.

Part of the heroes' journey in Luke's case, was discovering the force because of Ben, receiving some basic training to enhance his senses, and not rely on just his eyes, eventually accepting or "believing" in the force by the end of ANH, and then sequels expanded that idea by provided Luke more training to develop the Jedi abilities.

Rey, Broom boy, they just....use the Jedi techniques. Did they know about the force? I don't know, because the films didn't bother to show it. So in Disney Wars, the force will now work like a mutant power. It will just manifest itself randomly and people will use the Jedi abilities as a plot device. It's smart and an easy explanation to introduce more characters...I'll give them that.

Yeah that's the problem, there's nothing wrong with force sensitive people being out there, but it's always been very clear they need to be trained before they can use the force to push or pull objects. At the most without training the force just lets you feel things or perhaps a slight bit of instinct or heightened reflexes (not accounting for mr chosen one of course). It doesn't make sense within the world the movie is in, and that's why people don't like it, not because they don't want to see hope or whatever else.

 

[jye4ever]

#Settling

Sometime in life Snikt settling works just fine.

Would you believe that when SW and ESB were released there where people who actually hated them.

 

[Darkseed]

Sometime in life Snikt settling works just fine.

Would you believe that when SW and ESB were released there where people who actually hated them.

Jye the settler. Lol.....

 

[ZaCHw117]

Sometime in life Snikt settling works just fine.

Would you believe that when SW and ESB were released there where people who actually hated them.

not just some, the majority of them. ESB wasn’t the end all be all SW film right from release day, people hated it.

 

[jye4ever]

Jye the settler. Lol.....

pixlesettling > jye the settler

 

[xipotec]

We're not spoiled brats, the majority of us don't know what we want so we ***** when they give us anything.

"I want star wars!"

Disney: Ok here's a new one!

That wasn't star wars!

You win the Internet today....

Well said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Darkseed]

pixlesettling > jye the settler

You need to photoshop a pic of you in a settlers (Amish) attire....

 

[SNIKT1950]

Sometime in life Snikt settling works just fine.

Would you believe that when SW and ESB were released there where people who actually hated them.

I'm glad you bring up ESB. I just watched it again yesterday. That fight between Luke and Vader, that's being alluded to from the moment the film opens, is basically perfect. It's the culmination of two hours of wonderful storytelling and characterization via strong pacing and editing. It's a moment where these characters ascend to a more emotional and complex level - and with the reveal quite literally change forever. I bet like me [and everyone else in the history of mankind since 1980] you loved that fight.

Well, that's what Kylo and Luke's fight should have been. A moment as poignant and emotional as that in ESB that would also forever change those characters.

Instead of granting us that moment in the sun for both Kylo and Luke, and for this entire trilogy for that matter, Johnson didn't even allow Luke to ATTEND.

The crime of robbing us of that MASSIVE moment should be enough to make you dislike this movie. All the other bull**** should make you hate it. What you shouldn't do is forgive it for its massive missteps just so "you can be able to enjoy SW with your son."

That's exactly what I've been saying since Thursday night on here. Apologists are trying to like this movie out of some misplaced desire to keep SW alive.

 

[ZaCHw117]

I'm glad you bring up ESB. I just watched it again yesterday. That fight between Luke and Vader, that's being alluded to from the moment the film opens, is basically perfect. It's the culmination of two hours of wonderful storytelling and characterization via strong pacing and editing. It's a moment where these characters ascend to a more emotional and complex level - and with the reveal quite literally change forever. I bet like me [and everyone else in the history of mankind since 1980] loved that fight.

Well, that's what Kylo and Luke's fight should have been. A moment as poignant and emotional as that in ESB that would also forever change those characters.

Instead of granting us that moment in the sun for both Kylo and Luke, and for this entire trilogy for that matter, Johnson didn't even allow Luke to ATTEND.

The crime of robbing us of that MASSIVE moment should be enough to make you dislike this movie. All the other bull**** should make you hate it. What you shouldn't do is forgive it for its massive missteps just so "you can be able to enjoy SW with your son."

That's exactly what I've been saying since Thursday night on here. Apologists are trying to like this movie out of some misplaced desire to keep SW alive.

what utter nonsense, you have successfully talked yourself into hating this movie over one of the best moments in SW history. Luke using the force LIGHTYEARS away is much more profound and exciting than another saber duel. Luke went out like a true hero, I can’t believe people have a problem with how he went out.

 

[pixletwin]

what utter nonsense, you have successfully talked yourself into hating this movie over one of the best moments in SW history. Luke using the force LIGHTYEARS away is much more profound and exciting than another saber duel. Luke went out like a true hero, I can’t believe people have a problem with how he went out.

 

[SNIKT1950]

what utter nonsense, you have successfully talked yourself into hating this movie over one of the best moments in SW history. Luke using the force LIGHTYEARS away is much more profound and exciting than another saber duel. Luke went out like a true hero, I can’t believe people have a problem with how he went out.

Yeah, ASTRAL ****ING PROJECTION Luke is profound and exciting. Almost as profound and exciting as Mary Poppins Space Leia.

I swear to God, people just like dumb **** these days.

 

[morphosis]

what utter nonsense, you have successfully talked yourself into hating this movie over one of the best moments in SW history. Luke using the force LIGHTYEARS away is much more profound and exciting than another saber duel. Luke went out like a true hero, I can’t believe people have a problem with how he went out.

for those who hate this movie, I guess we cannot make decisions for ourselves anymore. We should follow their lead and line up with them like sheep.

These comments by the haters are ridiculous!!!

 

[Khev]

The hysteria over this film is absolutely hilarious.

Rian Johnson said before the movie came out that he wanted to push these characters to their limits after they'd been stripped of nearly every advantage. That's not "agenda pushing" it's simply good drama.

Poe is a weakened male? No he was a cocky pilot that could previously do no wrong until...things started to go wrong. So we got to see how he reacted when the chips were down. When every suggestion and maneuver he made *didn't* save the day. And that allowed him to grow.

Rey was stripped of her hope that the mystery of her parents would in and of itself give her life purpose and a sense of belonging.

And Johnson dared to strip even the great Luke Skywalker of his "legendary" status, to actually give him a real arc and give him an opportunity to prove himself when it wasn't all about him being the Chosen One's son and the galaxy's last hope.

This was not an incoherent film. It was a race against the clock/chase movie (Resistance ship trying to outrun Snoke's fleet) with all the heroes working toward the goal of saving the fleet. Heroes that were brought down to zero and forced to climb up again. A pretty straight forward narrative.

I fail to see how the film's "messages" were overtly left-wing. The evil of what Luke was contemplating against a sleeping Ben Solo should hit WAY closer to home for Pro-Choicers than anyone on the right. Also calling out the evil of making deals that fund terrorist organizations. Not exactly a "Pro-Obama" message now is it? So conservatives can just chill out about the messaging. I don't think this film was meant to be partisan anyway. Last I checked animal cruelty isn't a left vs. right issue. Nor is greed, genocide, slavery, etc. So I'm okay if the film's morale is that "bad things are bad," lol.

I don't mind films reflecting current political events if they aren't preaching or lecturing in a divisive way. In that regard Holdo can represent Hillary OR Trump because it presents her as a leader who is not the characters' first choice and one that appears incompetent or even traitorous. But rather than using her to say Hillary = bad or Trump = bad it does what good escapist entertainment should do and says "what if you were wrong about that leader you hate (on either side) and he/she turned out to be surprisingly awesome when it mattered the most?" We should all agree that that would be pretty cool, on screen and off.

Getting back to Luke, his moment in Ben's tent isn't nearly as sacrilegious as many are making it out to be. Hell it's basically what Yoda and Ben were pretty much advocating in the OT. "Kill an evil family member for the greater good." It's what Ben wanted him to do to Vader when they chatted in ROTJ. And Yoda and Ben urged him to sacrifice Han and Leia in ESB. And if TPM had featured a scene where Qui Gon or Obi-Wan got a future vision of what little Anakin would become, and we as the audience already KNEW it would all come true because we watched the OT, would we think they were losers for being tempted to just off the kid right there? Would it be "right" to do? No, of course not, but it is an interesting dilemma that few films would dare to ask.

And at the end of the day Luke did NOT follow through with harming Ben, and because Luke is Luke the very knowledge that he even considered it haunted him for years. Ballsy, poignant, and tailor made for one hell of a comeback.

Sure he could have been presented like Yoda and Ben were in the OT. Simple supporting badasses with virtually no arcs of their own. And it would have ticked off the box for many simply wishing to see Luke unleash a bunch of badass powers and moves and nothing more. But I'm pretty damn impressed (blown away actually) that Johnson dared to bring such a hero down to the point where he was pretty much lost and begging for help in the snow on Hoth again, hell I'd say he was even brought lower than that. There's a lot of risk in making such an attempt to give such an established character such a full arc again but that was a worthy endeavor and I think that both Johnson and Hamill did a hell of a job in pulling it off.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Yeah, ASTRAL ****ING PROJECTION Luke is profound and exciting. Almost as profound and exciting as Mary Poppins Space Leia.

I swear to God, people just like dumb **** these days.

you have yet to give a solid, sound, argument on why it doesn’t work. you’re still pissy about vampire snoke.