The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

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Yes, they want Sarah Connor to have a cool entrance and be a total badass, but they did that at the cost of the main villain's credibility. It's poor story telling, and a lack of understanding of how to make an effective badass protagonist. The one thing you don't do is undercut the main threat or villain. It's like in the beginning of Man of Steel, they have Crowe beat up the biggest villain in a hand to hand fight scene in the first 15 minutes of the film. :lol

Imagine if the T 1000 got easily beat up by the T 800 during their first encounter in the mall? The outdated uncle Bob easily dispatches the T 1000, and does so by dropping one liners to look awesome and totally cool!! That would be bad. Well, jus from looking at the trailer we know the new villain is outmatch and that's before they even get Arnold's help. :lol
 
Yes, they want Sarah Connor to have a cool entrance and be a total badass, but they did that at the cost of the main villain's credibility. It's poor story telling, and a lack of understanding of how to make an effective badass protagonist. The one thing you don't do is undercut the main threat or villain. It's like in the beginning of Man of Steel, they have Crowe beat up the biggest villain in a hand to hand fight scene in the first 15 minutes of the film. :lol

Imagine if the T 1000 got easily beat up by the T 800 during their first encounter in the mall? The outdated uncle Bob easily dispatches the T 1000, and does so by dropping one liners to look awesome and totally cool!! That would be bad. Well, jus from looking at the trailer we know the new villain is outmatch and that's before they even get Arnold's help. :lol

Nailed it. And lets not get started on Rey and Kylo Ren. I'd swear Kylo's bowcaster injury courtesy of Chewbacca was only written in because they knew they were gonna have Rey beat him later on*, they knew how implausible that would be and so they had to come up with an onscreen excuse.

*because heaven forbid the little girls in the audience see something so traumatic as a female hero not winning at everything.

Okay, but nice going guys. Now the remaining films in your trilogy have no sense of threat, no suspense.
 
Yes, they want Sarah Connor to have a cool entrance and be a total badass, but they did that at the cost of the main villain's credibility. It's poor story telling, and a lack of understanding of how to make an effective badass protagonist. The one thing you don't do is undercut the main threat or villain. It's like in the beginning of Man of Steel, they have Crowe beat up the biggest villain in a hand to hand fight scene in the first 15 minutes of the film. :lol

Imagine if the T 1000 got easily beat up by the T 800 during their first encounter in the mall? The outdated uncle Bob easily dispatches the T 1000, and does so by dropping one liners to look awesome and totally cool!! That would be bad. Well, jus from looking at the trailer we know the new villain is outmatch and that's before they even get Arnold's help. :lol

Poor Edward Furlong killed in 30 seconds lol

Imagine if he comes back as a Terminator.


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I think Cameron doesn't quite get that his guerrilla style film making is what gives his earlier movies a lot of their charm. Most of what he accomplished wasn't as easy as it is now when you can just have an idea, and have a CGI artist realize it no matter the scale. If there was an idea, you had to solve the puzzle of how to realize it, and sometimes that called for in-camera trickery. It also made you plan shots around practical effects, and some of those shots are iconic parts of cinema history. Mirrors, reverse motion or simply turning the camera upside down. When I watched those old movies I constantly had the question "How did they do that?" in my head. Nowadays, I don't have that question, because the answer is always CGI.

This is why I try to avoid doing photography effects in Photoshop after the fact rather than as part of the photo. Some of the most amazing images out there are photoshop creations, which doesn't take away from the beauty of them, but for me, there's an added layer of awe when something seemingly impossible is pulled off in reality and not "faked" in a computer and I get fun out of pushing myself to come up with ways to do certain things.

I almost feel like filmmakers should forget they have CGI, think about things they want to do, how they would achieve them practically, then turn to their CGI artists and say, go render this with your computers. Perhaps this could result in films feeling of the quality of practical days while being able to execute things more efficiently with technology, best of both worlds.

Like that now infamous stunt in T1 where the Terminator is on the hood of the car and the brick wall is moving not the vehicle.

It?s not that Cameron has forgotten what he learned from his low budget days it?s that practical filmmaking is surpassing cgi in cost.

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It's so crazy that at one time, it seemed like CGI was way too expensive and thus you had films like Jurassic Park still relying heavily on practical animatronics compared to today where Jurassic World is 100% CGI. Even the most mundane shots are done with CGI because of the burdens of doing them practical. Rambo Last Blood has CGI shots of driving because rigging to a car and everything is too costly vs parking a car on a green screen stage and shooting that.

I don't think CGI is a bad tool, I just feel that filmmakers are becoming so caught up in it's abilities and seeming limitlessness that they're losing a storytelling quality that practical films forced, and it's a shame because I think there's room for both sides to work together and deliver something special.

While a fair argument can be made for the lack of screen time and visibility, I loved that the Godzilla 2014 CGI treated the monsters like men in suits with their movement despite being CGI that could do anything and I think it led to a more realistic looking CGI creature vs CGI animals whose movements defy reality and look fake.

As a child I found the T1 endoskeleton scary, or at least I was in fear for the characters as it was going after them. Even in that state and with it limping along I felt like they were outmatched, it couldn't seem to be killed whereas Reese was by now a wreck. So perhaps the scariness was as much in the vulnerability of the heroes.

Now there doesn't appear to be any vulnerability in the heroes. Grace seems to be handling this Terminator pretty damn well, beating it senseless in at least 3 different encounters from what I can tell. As if she wasn't enough in comes Sarah Connor kicking its ass too. Seems like they don't even need Arnie but he's there anyway so there's 3 protectors. I'm more concerned for the villain. Is he going to be OK?

I see that Mr H chap on youtube has been making the same observation.

Yes, they want Sarah Connor to have a cool entrance and be a total badass, but they did that at the cost of the main villain's credibility. It's poor story telling, and a lack of understanding of how to make an effective badass protagonist. The one thing you don't do is undercut the main threat or villain. It's like in the beginning of Man of Steel, they have Crowe beat up the biggest villain in a hand to hand fight scene in the first 15 minutes of the film. :lol

Imagine if the T 1000 got easily beat up by the T 800 during their first encounter in the mall? The outdated uncle Bob easily dispatches the T 1000, and does so by dropping one liners to look awesome and totally cool!! That would be bad. Well, jus from looking at the trailer we know the new villain is outmatch and that's before they even get Arnold's help. :lol

In this agenda pushing world, it seems like filmmakers are getting too lost in the point they're trying to make and throwing it at the audience out the gate rather than realizing you can take the entire course of the movie to get there. Sarah Connor is a scared victim on the run at the start of T1 and at the end, is a badass who took out the machine which can't be stopped. T2 introduced her as a broken woman struggling to cope with the knowledge she has of the future, and they slowly build up her badassery a bit at a time culminating in a barrage of shotgun hits to the T-1000 in the steel mill before the gun jams.

In all cases, she went through hell along the way and wasn't a dominant force from the first shot on screen. If anything, Halloween 2018 is a better film at depicting a strong woman without showing off her strengths until almost the end of the film when you fully realize how strong and in control she was. Dark Fate feels like it was made by Disney to push a notion upon the world and not to continue a level of storytelling established in the originals.

Perhaps part of it is that eventually you run out of ways to have a scary villain in this series because there's finite things you can do and at some point, we as an audience know they can be stopped, but I think there's room with clever writing to still be threatening anyway, but that's not where the focus is being put in the stories, the villain is becoming more of a plot device and nothing more and focus on everything aside from it.
 
While I'm not a big fan of Kyle Reese, he was still a badass, yet in the film he's clearly scared of the T 800. He makes you believe that he's not only outmatched, but that their chances of beating it are slim to none. It doesn't make him any less of a badass, if anything it makes him a brave soldier. He's usually in a defensive position running away from the T-800. He's not pursuing it or even trying to kill it, merely stopping it momentarily so he and Sarah can run away scared of it.

Now let's compare that to Sarah Connor in DF. She steps out of s truck holding a gun bigger that her, which looks hilarious, sunglasses on so we can't see any emotions. She then shoots the most advanced machine with no emotions like she's a terminator, then shoots the other terminator with a rocket, casually walks to the edge of the bridge, and with ZERO sense of urgency, she drops a grenade while dropping one liners and walks away calmly, like it's just another normal day. :lol In wrestling terminology, we call that "no selling." She no sold the new villain, or anything that happened prior to her arrival, since Androgynous Thing was fighting and also beating the new Terminator, but at least she/he showed some emotion and difficulty while doing it. :lol

Even Uncle Bob showed some urgency after he noticed the T 1000 was reconstructing himself in the steel mill...and uncle bob isn't even human. :lol
 
Yep, good point. Sarah was as bored blowing up the T-Juan-Thousand as we were while watching her, lol.

And she's such an experienced badass that later in the movie she tries to kill the new Uncle Bob with a shotgun blast to the head. Because that would have worked. :cuckoo:
 
In this agenda pushing world, it seems like filmmakers are getting too lost in the point they're trying to make and throwing it at the audience out the gate rather than realizing you can take the entire course of the movie to get there. Sarah Connor is a scared victim on the run at the start of T1 and at the end, is a badass who took out the machine which can't be stopped. T2 introduced her as a broken woman struggling to cope with the knowledge she has of the future, and they slowly build up her badassery a bit at a time culminating in a barrage of shotgun hits to the T-1000 in the steel mill before the gun jams.

In all cases, she went through hell along the way and wasn't a dominant force from the first shot on screen. If anything, Halloween 2018 is a better film at depicting a strong woman without showing off her strengths until almost the end of the film when you fully realize how strong and in control she was. Dark Fate feels like it was made by Disney to push a notion upon the world and not to continue a level of storytelling established in the originals.

Perhaps part of it is that eventually you run out of ways to have a scary villain in this series because there's finite things you can do and at some point, we as an audience know they can be stopped, but I think there's room with clever writing to still be threatening anyway, but that's not where the focus is being put in the stories, the villain is becoming more of a plot device and nothing more and focus on everything aside from it.

Exactly. We're getting characters that are the finished article right from the start because that's how filmmakers think they need to portray 'strong' characters now for some reason. And I'm sure there are and have been male examples but, if I may, I'm going to stick with Rey

Her defenders have said that the reason she can handle herself (such as when she takes on and defeats those thugs early in the film) is because she's been living by herself and fending for herself her whole life. OK. Presumably she wasn't always this capable. But you're not going to show us that and we're only concerned with what you're showing us. So therein is the whole problem with the character. She is written as strong and capable right from the outset. She thus has no real learning experiences throughout the course of the movie. We're not watching character growth now, we're just watching a character physically moving from point A to point B. It's not particularly interesting.

Transport ROTJ Luke back to ANH and he could have handled the sandpeople or Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba in the cantina but actual ANH Luke could not, he needed to be rescued. And being gifted in the force such that we knew he was already a good pilot and could make the shot that destroyed the death star didn't mean that he was also able to do all those other things. He most certainly would not have beaten Darth Vader had he fought him. Even the chosen one, Anakin Skywalker, had his ass handed to him by Count Dooku in AOTC and by that stage he wad been undergoing jedi training for 10 years. So I don't agree when people point to Luke and Anakin as being exactly comparable to what they've done with Rey. Heck I've even seen Grace Randolph call Rey a mary sue in a video just recently.

Anyway, apologies for bringing Star Wars into the Terminator thread, as if there aren't enough SW threads already. Taking it back to Terminator - Sarah Connor, by this point, has certainly earned her stripes and it would be a regression of her character if she didn't seem adept at tackling Terminators. So I don't think our criticism can apply to her in Dark Fate (from what we've seen). The problem is that her stuff in combination with Grace just demolishing the Rev-9 in various different scenes is creating the impression that this is a crappy and ineffectual villain which makes Grace's line about him being the most lethal Terminator ever created kinda laughable at this moment in time.
 
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Exactly. We're getting characters that are the finished article right from the start because that's how filmmakers think they need to portray 'strong' characters now for some reason. And I'm sure there are and have been male examples but, if I may, I'm going to stick with Rey

Her defenders have said that the reason she can handle herself (such as when she takes on and defeats those thugs early in the film) is because she's been living by herself and fending for herself her whole life. OK. Presumably she wasn't always this capable. But you're not going to show us that and we're only concerned with what you're showing us. So therein is the whole problem with the character. She is written as strong and capable right from the outset. She thus has no real learning experiences throughout the course of the movie. We're not watching character growth now, we're just watching a character physically moving from point A to point B. It's not particularly interesting.

ROTJ Luke could have handled the sandpeople or Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba in the cantina but ANH Luke could not, he needed to be rescued. And being gifted in the force such that we knew he was already a good pilot and could make the shot that destroyed the death star didn't mean that he was also able to do all those other things. He most certainly would not have beaten Darth Vader had he fought him. Even the chosen one, Anakin Skywalker, had his ass handed to him by Count Dooku in AOTC and by that stage he wad been undergoing jedi training for 10 years. So I don't agree when people point to Luke and Anakin as being exactly comparable to what they've done with Rey. Heck I've even seen Grace Randolph call Rey a mary sue in a video just recently.

Anyway, apologies for bringing Star Wars into the Terminator thread, as if there aren't enough SW threads already. Taking it back to Terminator - Sarah Connor, by this point, has certainly earned her stripes and it would be a regression of her character if she didn't seem adept at tackling Terminators. So I don't think our criticism can apply to her in Dark Fate (from what we've seen). The problem is that her stuff in combination with Grace just demolishing the Rev-9 in various different scenes is creating the impression that this is a crappy and ineffectual villain which makes Grace's line about him being the most lethal Terminator ever created kinda laughable at this moment in time.

I agree with your main point about Rey but disagree that she needed to be shown as incapable (for lack of a better word) of handling herself early in the film when she faced Unkar Plutt's goons. I thought that was fine. The thing is that if you're going to start out with a character being a badass then they absolutely must follow the Arnold Schwarzenegger template. Dutch and his team were badasses right from the get go in Predator for instance and mopped the floor with the enemy soldiers in the opening action sequence. Uncle Bob similarly made quick work of the biker bar. Which was fine in both instances because in both cases he was immediately outmatched when first facing the main villain of the movie.

And they kind of did that with Rey and Kylo in the forest where she couldn't land a hit with her blaster, got frozen, and then quickly put to sleep. But then like Dutch or Uncle Bob she was able to be victorious in the film's final showdown. I just think that in TLJ Kylo should have come back and *really* kicked her ass (like ESB Vader vs. Luke bad) to show her and the audience that her first victory was a fluke and to give us someone to root for when they meet again in TROS. But TLJ was more concerned with Kylo facing Luke (and getting humiliated *again*) so Kylo is still positioned as the underdog, which is lame.

Ohhh, I might have to reconsider some of my last paragraph after reading Clown Prince and Khev's posts :lol

:lol :lol
 
As a child I found the T1 endoskeleton scary, or at least I was in fear for the characters as it was going after them. Even in that state and with it limping along I felt like they were outmatched, it couldn't seem to be killed whereas Reese was by now a wreck. So perhaps the scariness was as much in the vulnerability of the heroes. I'm more concerned for the villain. Is he going to be OK?

:lol So true...
 
Sarah Connor has experience, but I doubt she has more experience than Kyle Reese, since he was born into war and all he did was fight and survive terminators. However, one of the reasons he was so afraid and felt outmatched was because of his lack of advanced weapons ("With these weapons...I don't know.") to fight the T 800. He wasn't just afraid for his own life, but for Sarah's safety because she was so important, so lacking advanced weapons to kill the"unstoppable" machine created an additional obstacle to overcome.
 
Sarah Connor, by this point, has certainly earned her stripes and it would be a regression of her character if she didn't seem adept at tackling Terminators. So I don't think our criticism can apply to her in Dark Fate (from what we've seen).

I'm not so much against Sarah being more assertive, but the way she's portrayed in these trailers is almost whimsical. That's not how this character would act. She knows how dangerous Terminators are, as she stated several times in T2. Even with heavy firepower, they're still a real threat. This Sarah has obviously been dealing with Terminators regularly, but I don't think the Sarah we saw in T2 is one that would be this relaxed when dealing with something that not only killed the father of her son and her son, her mother, her best friend, but, also, nearly killed her twice. It's like snake handlers that get too confident and comfortable when handling the snakes. That's when they get bitten. Sarah is too smart (and paranoid) for that. It's way out of character.
 
While I'm not a big fan of Kyle Reese, he was still a badass, yet in the film he's clearly scared of the T 800. He makes you believe that he's not only outmatched, but that their chances of beating it are slim to none. It doesn't make him any less of a badass, if anything it makes him a brave soldier. He's usually in a defensive position running away from the T-800. He's not pursuing it or even trying to kill it, merely stopping it momentarily so he and Sarah can run away scared of it.

Now let's compare that to Sarah Connor in DF. She steps out of s truck holding a gun bigger that her, which looks hilarious, sunglasses on so we can't see any emotions. She then shoots the most advanced machine with no emotions like she's a terminator, then shoots the other terminator with a rocket, casually walks to the edge of the bridge, and with ZERO sense of urgency, she drops a grenade while dropping one liners and walks away calmly, like it's just another normal day. :lol In wrestling terminology, we call that "no selling." She no sold the new villain, or anything that happened prior to her arrival, since Androgynous Thing was fighting and also beating the new Terminator, but at least she/he showed some emotion and difficulty while doing it. :lol

Even Uncle Bob showed some urgency after he noticed the T 1000 was reconstructing himself in the steel mill...and uncle bob isn't even human. :lol

Excellent point. Kyle Reese was living in the actual reality of the war against the machines, not merely the foreknowledge that it was coming. I said that by now Sarah Connor should be capable of tackling Terminators but you've made me think twice. Why would she be more capable than Kyle Reese was? How would she come to be so casual and blase about it while he never was?

Yep, good point. Sarah was as bored blowing up the T-Juan-Thousand as we were while watching her, lol.

And she's such an experienced badass that later in the movie she tries to kill the new Uncle Bob with a shotgun blast to the head. Because that would have worked. :cuckoo:

Well, I could at least put that down to rage and built up hatred. Shooting him in the face might have cathartic value to her regardless that it wouldn't kill him.

I agree with your main point about Rey but disagree that she needed to be shown as incapable (for lack of a better word) of handling herself early in the film when she faced Unkar Plutt's goons. I thought that was fine. The thing is that if you're going to start out with a character being a badass then they absolutely must follow the Arnold Schwarzenegger template. Dutch and his team were badasses right from the get go in Predator for instance and mopped the floor with the enemy soldiers in the opening action sequence. Uncle Bob similarly made quick work of the biker bar. Which was fine in both instances because in both cases he was immediately outmatched when first facing the main villain of the movie.

And they kind of did that with Rey and Kylo in the forest where she couldn't land a hit with her blaster, got frozen, and then quickly put to sleep. But then like Dutch or Uncle Bob she was able to be victorious in the film's final showdown. I just think that in TLJ Kylo should have come back and *really* kicked her ass (like ESB Vader vs. Luke bad) to show her and the audience that her first victory was a fluke and to give us someone to root for when they meet again in TROS. But TLJ was more concerned with Kylo facing Luke (and getting humiliated *again*) so Kylo is still positioned as the underdog, which is lame.

Also good points. I probably still wouldn't have had Rey beat Kylo into submission in TFA but I'll concede your point that at least the Rey mary sue aspect might have been salvageable in TLJ had Rian Johnson gone a different way. He didn't and as a result Rey is undefeated 2 movies into the trilogy and Kylo, assuming he remains the villain in 9, isn't even allowed to win because it's the last movie. So it'll be 3-0 and he will go down as one of the most useless villains in popular cinema. :lol
 
Sarah Connor has experience, but I doubt she has more experience than Kyle Reese, since he was born into war and all he did was fight and survive terminators. However, one of the reasons he was so afraid and felt outmatched was because of his lack of advanced weapons ("With these weapons...I don't know.") to fight the T 800. He wasn't just afraid for his own life, but for Sarah's safety because she was so important, so lacking advanced weapons to kill the"unstoppable" machine created an additional obstacle to overcome.

I'm not so much against Sarah being more assertive, but the way she's portrayed in these trailers is almost whimsical. That's not how this character would act. She knows how dangerous Terminators are, as she stated several times in T2. Even with heavy firepower, they're still a real threat. This Sarah has obviously been dealing with Terminators regularly, but I don't think the Sarah we saw in T2 is one that would be this relaxed when dealing with something that not only killed the father of her son and her son, her mother, her best friend, but, also, nearly killed her twice. It's like snake handlers that get too confident and comfortable when handling the snakes. That's when they get bitten. Sarah is too smart (and paranoid) for that. It's way out of character.

Yep. You guys have stripped away my one glimmer of positivity about this movie. :lol
 
Gosh reading the last few posts from Clown Prince and Alice has me thinking that Emilia Clarke surgically sniping the T-800 from a safe distance and then setting up the acid trap for the T-1000 to guarantee its demise was more in character than *Linda Hamilton* in the new movie? FFS. :slap
 
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Emilia Clarke safely sniping the T-800 from a distance and then setting up the acid trap for the T-1000 to guarantee its demise was more in character than *Linda Hamilton* in the new movie? FFS. :slap

Even when she rescues "Kyle", the catchphrase that she used (Come with if you want to live...NOW SOLDIER!!) was suitable. There was urgency in her tone. She conveyed that they needed to leave quickly. She even sounds more like Sarah than the actual Sarah Connor in DF too. :lol

 
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