The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

[e30ernest]

Another pondering I have is this - Uncle Bob learning the value of human life was one thing - given his reprogramming and mission - but now that we've had a Skynet-programmed T-800 also learning the value of human life it really calls into question a few things *while pretty much contradicting everything Kyle Reese said about Terminators

A) you would think Skynet shouldn't allow this - thus the T2 ''chip set to read-only'' deleted scene

I was actually glad that this was a deleted scene (not officially canon). The whole read-only setup was weird, since learning would have been something that could help a terminator with its mission objectives immensely, It adds adaptability instead of an infiltrator having to rely on preset strategies that will only make it predictable.

If this (read-only settings) remained canon, then Carl could have probably been sent back with that setting off. And maybe that's the reason it was the only terminator to succeed with its mission thus far.

B) Does this not mean that Skynet itself could change its mind? Or is it that only the personified machines are ever in a position for this to happen through direct interaction with humans? In which case see A again.

This is a good thing to explore though. Would Skynet change its mind or has what it learned about humans going to keep it convinced that it really needs to kill all of them? I wonder if Skynet is like a dictator, where it knows it's wrong, but it cannot backtrack anyway because it will lead to its demise.

Yeah they are. All of the regulars. At even a sniff of wokeness they instantly throw objectivity out the window otherwise surely at least one or two of them would break ranks. Nah, every review title says ''Trash'', ''Garbage'' etc etc and the latest round of videos is celebrating the poor opening weekend box office. They're boringly predictable now. I say 'now' because I did dabble for a while there, that's why their videos are shown to me by youtube.

And it's not that I think everything they're saying is wrong it's just that the total lack of variation in their views is suggestive of a hive mind/group think - the very thing they would purport to be against from SJWs.

I've been noticing it in YT reviews too. A lot of them came in with a set of predetermined biases in my view. I think it is snowballing as you and Khev point out.

By the way, per your vid, I had heard that the prologue starts in 1998 but it didn't dawn on me that from Skynet's POV that would have been after they'd nuked humanity. And that's definitely not just a plothole/error?

I thought the same at first. But then I realized that maybe:

1. The Terminator was sent to 1997, but only succeeded in 1998
2. This Terminator was deliberately sent by Skynet to a date just after Judgement Day to take out John while the resistance is weak (people still recovering from the shock of Judgement Day and probably don't have enough weapons to protect themselves)

I think they handled Carl in a great way, and the drapery thing is, as you'd expect, blown way out of proportion by certain audiences. It's also a nice throwback to Arnie himself. Of all things though, they handled his machine behavior and reasoning for the family in a manner respectful to the franchise. Though it does render the deleted chip scene in T2 as noncanon should you include this as the true ending to the trilogy.

I like the drapery scene. The film goes out of its way to point out that machines treat their goals with a narrow obsession and they will relentlessly move towards that goal. Carl had that same obsession to drapes. It was a nice touch IMO.

 

[TaliBane]

The CG was honestly really good. Not perfect in all instances, but much, much better than a film like this would expectedly have. The prologue is arguably some of the best deaging on the market.

What do you mean by that?

And these articles I guess are outgrowths of the YT videos, but I think it's more about too many Terminator movies - essentially telling a pretty similar story over and over - than the woke thing.

 

[jye4ever]

Hopefully this film makes enough money so they can finish the trilogy.

You know what the irony is because of the final nail in the coffin the next Terminator movie will be a Dredd budget B movie that will go back to basics and actually be gritty slow and awesome without full cgi cargo planes playing tag wouldn?t that be nice.

Unfortunately no Arnold or Linda because the budget could not afford them but oh well time to move on I guess.

Poof Linda all that work for nothing.

I was actually glad that this was a deleted scene (not officially canon). The whole read-only setup was weird, since learning would have been something that could help a terminator with its mission objectives immensely, It adds adaptability instead of an infiltrator having to rely on preset strategies that will only make it predictable.

If this (read-only settings) remained canon, then Carl could have probably been sent back with that setting off. And maybe that's the reason it was the only terminator to succeed with its mission thus far.



This is a good thing to explore though. Would Skynet change its mind or has what it learned about humans going to keep it convinced that it really needs to kill all of them? I wonder if Skynet is like a dictator, where it knows it's wrong, but it cannot backtrack anyway because it will lead to its demise.



I've been noticing it in YT reviews too. A lot of them came in with a set of predetermined biases in my view. I think it is snowballing as you and Khev point out.




I thought the same at first. But then I realized that maybe:

1. The Terminator was sent to 1997, but only succeeded in 1998
2. This Terminator was deliberately sent by Skynet to a date just after Judgement Day to take out John while the resistance is weak (people still recovering from the shock of Judgement Day and probably don't have enough weapons to protect themselves)

I like the drapery scene. The film goes out of its way to point out that machines treat their goals with a narrow obsession and they will relentlessly move towards that goal. Carl had that same obsession to drapes. It was a nice touch IMO.

Great post great point about the read only actually being a hindrance to success and not the other way around.

Great points all of it really lol

What do you mean by that?

And these articles I guess are outgrowths of the YT videos, but I think it's more about too many Terminator movies - essentially telling a pretty similar story over and over - than the woke thing.

Yup


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[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Joker before he goes back to #1 next week.

 

[DiFabio]

Just saw it.

Holy ****, they made this T-800 a cuck! So this Terminator fulfilled it's mission by terminating it's target (RIP John Connor) then . . . gets married, raises his wife's son and runs his own little business? Not only that, but he regrets killing Connor and is sympathetic to Sarah? WTF did I just watch?


I just don't get it, I really don't. It completely goes against "It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

Why was this movie even made?

 

[teemu]

Just saw it.

Holy ****, they made this T-800 a cuck! So this Terminator fulfilled it's mission by terminating it's target (RIP John Connor) then . . . gets married, raises his wife's son and runs his own little business? Not only that, but he regrets killing Connor and is sympathetic to Sarah? WTF did I just watch?


I just don't get it, I really don't. It completely goes against "It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

Why was this movie even made?

Easy answer...Money...like everything else. They don't make movies to tell good stories. They make them 1# to indoctrinate and make money

 

[a-dev]

Just saw it.

Holy ****, they made this T-800 a cuck! So this Terminator fulfilled it's mission by terminating it's target (RIP John Connor) then . . . gets married, raises his wife's son and runs his own little business? Not only that, but he regrets killing Connor and is sympathetic to Sarah? WTF did I just watch?


I just don't get it, I really don't. It completely goes against "It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead."

Why was this movie even made?

I could throw in a rationalization for it but I don't think it'd convince you, heck I'm not even sure it convinces me.

But here goes - if we accept that a Terminator is capable of taking the path that Uncle Bob did - which Kyle Reese never would have believed, but hey, it happened - then I guess it ought to be feasible for one to go as far as Carl did (granted it's not necessarily something you want to see).

It requires that Terminators (for some reason) do not have a general standing order to kill humans, that once they kill their primary target that's it - from then on they do not have an inclination to kill. This then facilitates the continued infiltration into society which brings Carl to where he ends up.

I can poke a hole in my own theory though and it is this - even Uncle Bob did seem inclined to kill whether it was necessary for the mission or not*. ''Of course. I'm a Terminator''. John Connor merely stopped him from doing so and Uncle Bob was programmed specifically to follow John's orders.

So I dunno. I haven't even seen it yet but I spoiled the heck out of it for myself, I know pretty much everything. I'm trying with this one (on account of Linda Hamilton and Cameron's involvement) but ultimately I may feel as you do.


*is killing people outside of the primary target even sensible when you think about it? It could draw the attention of authorities which will make the mission more difficult. Doesn't really make sense for a logical machine - but that's a T1/T2 problem

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Holy ****, they made this T-800 a cuck!

Did you mean a cook? I'm sure Carl kills it at the family cookouts.

 

[Khev]

Awesome discussion the past few pages guys and *excellent* commentary DioramaMaker.

DiFabio I know there was a time in the canon/non-canon discussions when I was unfairly harsh against aspects of T2 so I'm not gonna fault you for criticizing a film that is objectively worse, lol.

However yes, a-dev, I agree that Carl is not a "sissified" version of the character or anything since he does indeed come across as an extension of Uncle Bob. And if Uncle Bob didn't need to be destroyed then I think we can all agree that he too would have helped raise another woman's child, just as Sarah fantasized about in the desert.

As for Reese saying "they don't feel pity or remorse" well obviously Reese's only context for such a claim was meeting them on the battlefield or watching them break into his hideout and slaughter everyone. Reese also said "no one else goes through, it's just him and me" which was incorrect and "Terminators don't feel pain, I do," which Uncle Bob later clarified to young John as being a somewhat inaccurate statement as well.

Regarding killing and "of course, I'm a Terminator" remember that at that point Uncle Bob was 100% in "primary mission objective mode" and not thinking freely. Even Dark Fate confirmed how hard it is to get a Terminator off course, especially one with very limited acquired knowledge, when it is pursuing it's primary objective.

This one has been a lot of fun to chat about. As I said before it's too bad that a lot of people seemingly can no longer just take a PC line here or there in stride without it ruining the entire picture. I'm so glad that LOTR came out almost 20 years ago. The internet would have absolutely shredded the Witch King/Eowen exchange over the "no man can kill me/I am no man" exchange. Back then we were all "all right, get him girl," and then it was on to the next scene without any fuss.

At least when a movie I like bombs that just means I'll have it on disc in record time, lol. At this rate I should be watching the 4K at home within a week or two.

 

[DiFabio]

I can poke a hole in my own theory though and it is this - even Uncle Bob did seem inclined to kill whether it was necessary for the mission or not. ''Of course. I'm a Terminator''. John Connor merely stopped him from doing so and Uncle Bob was programmed specifically to follow John's orders.

When I was reading your post, this was going to be my rebuttal along with "I have detailed files on human anatomy/makes you a more efficient killer/correct", but you ended up including it anyway.

Exactly. The Terminator always had a preference for killing, because he's a ****ing Terminator. Did it have to rip out the punk's heart out in the beginning? No. Did it have to kill the gun store owner? No. Did he have to throw Matt around like a rag doll and murder him? No. None of those people were targets. Same thing applies to the T-800 in T2. He throws those biker dudes around just like he did with the punks and Matt in the first film and he's inclined to pop those jocks when they come into the scene to check on John.

"Of course, I'm a Terminator" is an understatement.

Look at the T-1000. It was more advanced than the T-800 and it became more sadistic as the film progressed. It didn't have to kill the dog. It didn't have to kill the motorcycle cop or the tanker truck driver. In fact, doing so would technically be a waste of it's time. But it did it and almost relished in it. The T-1000 slowly becomes a sadist throughout the film, almost taking pleasure in torturing Sarah at the steel mill "I know this hurts". He even plays with the T-800 before finally impaling him, like a cat playing with a mouse before killing it. If he had killed John, there's no doubt he would have continued to kill.

There's no reason to not believe the T-800 wouldn't be the same way. Look at the attitude it has in the first film. Basically tells the janitor dude to go **** himself. Same with the original Terminator. I highly doubt it would stop or just shut down after eliminating Sarah. He'd most likely go off and start finding other Sarah Connors to kill. Why stop with LA? It would never develop sensitive feelings for people. Not even Uncle Bob has empathy for others. He definitely understands and respects it by the end of the film, but he doesn't give a ****. Even when he's blowing away knee caps he has a flippant attitude, like "they'll live, whatever". He even seems to support the idea of killing Dyson initially because it logically makes a lot of sense.

They're machines, not humans. More specifically they're machines created to MURDER humans. One becoming a literal family man (as opposed to Uncle Bob who was symbolic and an analogy of a dysfunctional father figure for John) is just too much. Carl is actually much worse than Pops, and Pops was too even too much.

 

[jye4ever]

If one is incapable of accepting AI that can be altered to fit a specific purpose (or mission) then T2 is non canon enjoy T1 lol


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[jye4ever]

Well there goes my Predators vs Skynet movie I always wanted to see.

Maybe the humans created Legion to take on the Predators and then after the Predators were defeated Legion turned on the humans lol

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[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.



holy crap

https://youtu.be/Hugsy-pQ61U


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[DiFabio]

If one is incapable of accepting AI that can be altered to fit a specific purpose (or mission) then T2 is non canon enjoy T1 lol

The T-800 in T2 was also made by Skynet. It's the same make, right down to the design. It's the same T-800 we see in T1 except it is reprogrammed to protect someone and follow that person's orders. That's the only difference, there's nothing inherently "good" or "bad" about it. It acts just like the first one did, the only difference is, it was intercepted by the good guys, reprogrammed to protect and is unable to kill because it's target orders it not to. A concept that confuses it throughout the movie.

The T-1000 is also just like the first two Terminators. They have the same files and the same methods. All three are cut from the same cloth.

Carl is programmed to kill John Connor, not start a family. He should be like the three Terminators above, but for whatever reason, he isn't. He even goes as far as having a job and running a ****ing business.

 

[Khev]

Carl is programmed to kill John Connor. He should be like the three Terminators above

But according to the opening scene, he is. But he alone fulfilled his mission and survived. Which puts Carl in uncharted territory compared to all that proceeded him. And I think it syncs up with where we all assume Uncle Bob would have headed.

 

[a-dev]

Awesome discussion the past few pages guys and *excellent* commentary DioramaMaker.

It has been very interesting. I've got 3 pages of this thread open in different tabs right now with stuff I want to reply to but that reply to DiFabio alone was an exercise in frustration at work.

 

[e30ernest]

When I was reading your post, this was going to be my rebuttal along with "I have detailed files on human anatomy/makes you a more efficient killer/correct", but you ended up including it anyway.

Exactly. The Terminator always had a preference for killing, because he's a ****ing Terminator. Did it have to rip out the punk's heart out in the beginning? No. Did it have to kill the gun store owner? No. Did he have to throw Matt around like a rag doll and murder him? No. None of those people were targets. Same thing applies to the T-800 in T2. He throws those biker dudes around just like he did with the punks and Matt in the first film and he's inclined to pop those jocks when they come into the scene to check on John.

"Of course, I'm a Terminator" is an understatement.

Look at the T-1000. It was more advanced than the T-800 and it became more sadistic as the film progressed. It didn't have to kill the dog. It didn't have to kill the motorcycle cop or the tanker truck driver. In fact, doing so would technically be a waste of it's time. But it did it and almost relished in it. The T-1000 slowly becomes a sadist throughout the film, almost taking pleasure in torturing Sarah at the steel mill "I know this hurts". He even plays with the T-800 before finally impaling him, like a cat playing with a mouse before killing it. If he had killed John, there's no doubt he would have continued to kill.

There's no reason to not believe the T-800 wouldn't be the same way. Look at the attitude it has in the first film. Basically tells the janitor dude to go **** himself. Same with the original Terminator. I highly doubt it would stop or just shut down after eliminating Sarah. He'd most likely go off and start finding other Sarah Connors to kill. Why stop with LA? It would never develop sensitive feelings for people. Not even Uncle Bob has empathy for others. He definitely understands and respects it by the end of the film, but he doesn't give a ****. Even when he's blowing away knee caps he has a flippant attitude, like "they'll live, whatever". He even seems to support the idea of killing Dyson initially because it logically makes a lot of sense.

They're machines, not humans. More specifically they're machines created to MURDER humans. One becoming a literal family man (as opposed to Uncle Bob who was symbolic and an analogy of a dysfunctional father figure for John) is just too much. Carl is actually much worse than Pops, and Pops was too even too much.

It's been a while since I've watched T1 and T2, but have any of the Terminators actually kill random people on purpose? The way I remembered it, every one they killed had a relation to their mission (some are collateral damage). Yes the T1000 killed the dog, but that Terminator did show hints of annoyance throughout the film. Maybe he killed the dog because it outed him to Bob and John.

Going back to previous movies, it was stated that a Terminator's purpose is its mission. So what happens when that mission is complete? We've never really touched on this one. Neither Terminators that succeeded not failed survived their respective films (exception is Genesys).

A Terminator on read only mode will probably shut down. How about one with learning enabled? I think they explored this concept well with Carl. Granted, it's not the best IMO, but a good effort.

 

[DiFabio]

But according to the opening scene, he is. But he alone fulfilled his mission and survived. Which puts Carl in uncharted territory compared to all that proceeded him. And I think it syncs up with where we all assume Uncle Bob would have headed.

So, do you really think if the original Terminator had succeeded in killing the last Sarah Connor in 1984, it would just stop there and start becoming a person?

Atleast one could argue that Uncle Bob in it's reprogramming has to follow a righteous, virtuous path, but Carl doesn't! His mission was to kill John Connor!? KILL, not protect. And why spare Sarah? She just attacked him, she was right there, why not kill her too? Better yet, Carl must somehow know that this John Connor is the "right" John Connor (instead of going of and killing other John Connors), so surely it has files on the significance of Sarah Connor (like Phone Book Killer, Uncle Bob and officer "Austin"), so why wouldn't he kill her too?!

No, instead he sends her remorseful text messages and seems to feel guilty about killing John.

I can believe that a Terminator can be reprogrammed for good purposes as a protector, but I don't think one that is programmed to kill would just start developing compassion. You make it sound like had Uncle Bob lived on, he would have been John's daddy and Sarah's lover, maybe even open up a floral shop and send all the cops and security guards he crippled get well soon cards. That's just not the case. He learned the value of human life and "gets it", but he even admits he can never really be human.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

But according to the opening scene, he is. But he alone fulfilled his mission and survived. Which puts Carl in uncharted territory compared to all that proceeded him. And I think it syncs up with where we all assume Uncle Bob would have headed.

Not that anyone cares about The Sarah Connor Chronicles or considers it canon, but that tv show explored that very issue. What happens when a Terminator fulfils its mission and no longer has a purpose. In the show, the Terminator went to a specific location in a locked down base or whatever it was and it went into a state of "sleep" in a standing position like a parrot, until the day Skynet made contact or took over.

That's more in line with the Terminator from T1 and T2 than Carl becoming Martha Stewart, imo.

 

[jye4ever]

The "All things TERMINATOR" thread.

So, do you really think if the original Terminator had succeeded in killing the last Sarah Connor in 1984, it would just stop there and start becoming a person?

Atleast one could argue that Uncle Bob in it's reprogramming has to follow a righteous, virtuous path, but Carl doesn't! His mission was to kill John Connor!? KILL, not protect. And why spare Sarah? She just attacked him, she was right there, why not kill her too? Better yet, Carl must somehow know that this John Connor is the "right" John Connor (instead of going of and killing other John Connors), so surely it has files on the significance of Sarah Connor (like Phone Book Killer, Uncle Bob and officer "Austin"), so why wouldn't he kill her too?!

No, instead he sends her remorseful text messages and seems to feel guilty about killing John.

I can believe that a Terminator can be reprogrammed for good purposes as a protector, but I don't think one that is programmed to kill would just start developing compassion. You make it sound like had Uncle Bob lived on, he would have been John's daddy and Sarah's lover, maybe even open up a floral shop and send all the cops and security guards he crippled get well soon cards. That's just not the case. He learned the value of human life and "gets it", but he even admits he can never really be human.

Ghost Terminator in the Blade Runner Shell lol


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