The Avengers VS The Dark Knight

[thenammagazine]

He's underrated because he is easy to overlook given how much Joker dominates the film .

Going to have to agree to disagree on the 'backbone' argument, even Nam would agree that Dent is the backbone of TDK

Batman and Joker are but plot devices (distractingly and frustratingly so) to tell the story of the rise and fall of Harvey Dent. Even Batman, assuming the role of his murderer at the end, is part of Dent's story, it's epilogue, not Batman's. It's a shame that the very idea of this gets lost in all the convoluted BS. Joker was to appear as the main villain for Nolan's third installment, so any insistence on him being an equal antagonist in TDK is plain and simply wrong.

 

[intothevoid]

TDK is about Values. It's not about one character, but every character. They all represent different levels of values and how those values are represented through society.

Also a good summary

 

[DiFabio]

Key word being 'was'.

When was he? When he threatened a mentally ill person at gun point?

What was so great about Dent? That he was able to accuse the mob? That's an Attorney's job. I understand the whole White Knight/Dark Knight concept (how they can do things that the other person can't do) but there's really never an underlying "heroic" moment with the Harvey Dent character. Only when they're cheesing it up with lines about playing golf and buying American. I guess "I am the Batman" scene depicts Dent in a positive light but that's quickly overshadowed by the Joker and the "surprise" with Gordon. Going into the film you're just supposed to accept that, "yeah, this guy is great" when there's really no reason as to why? Is it the blonde hair? The square jaw? What's so good about him?

He's not someone I feel sorry for or that I find tragic either. The audience is supposed to, that was the goal obviously. You wouldn't have the final/third act without that idea but if you think about it justice meant nothing to him, only a butter faced assistant DA. When she's threatened, he loses it. He's the weakest of all the key players. Unless you count Rachel as a key player, then she is the weakest. I wish we would have gotten a chance to see him fully embodied in the villain persona instead of a small glimpse/tease when he's holding a gun to a mentally ill man's head. Instead of hinting that he might have been an unhinged man, they should have delved in deep and explore the dual nature of Harvey Dent's persona.

By the time we get to the "good stuff" Dent is dead at the bottom of the hole with his neck broken and Batman is off running for a contrived accusation/crime he decided to take the blame for in the name of teh Gotham. Why? All because Dent was supposedly soooooo great and so good despite ever really being that great or good.

The whole "hero with a face" and "symbol of hope" crap was a plot device for Bruce/Batman. That's all it was. Bruce sitting at the table getting all starry-eyed because this guy is talking about Caesar, Rome, and heroes becoming villains was ridiculous. Batman shouldn't be so quick to hand the city over to a guy he just meant.

 

[Shai]

Just imagine Ledger Dying while filming Avengers !!!

 

[intothevoid]

Batman and Joker are but plot devices (distractingly and frustratingly so) to tell the story of the rise and fall of Harvey Dent. Even Batman, assuming the role of his murderer at the end, is part of Dent's story, it's epilogue, not Batman's. It's a shame that the very idea of this gets lost in all the convoluted BS. Joker was to appear as the main villain for Nolan's third installment, so any insistence on him being an equal antagonist in TDK is plain and simply wrong.

Like I said, I think the film isn't about any particular person, but ideas or values as Zach puts it, so while I agree that Dent is the backbone of the film if you look at it purely from a character perspective, I don't think that's the point. There's a trio of Dent/Batman/Joker who area each integral to explore the ideas the film aims to explore.

But like any work of art, be it film, music or a painting - it's all open to interpretation - so if Fabio for example watches TDK and sees a film about Joker or whatever - that's fine, it's just another interpretation.

 

[ZaCHw117]

I'm on both sides here. I disagree that Joker and Batman were distracting plot devices (a plot device is every character). And I do wish we got to see more two face, his death, however is what the Batman character needed. To take the blame in order for Gotham to save hope in their minds. "To not be a hero, but something more." Hope, being one of the main themes in the film (either loosing it, or keeping faith in it) "Sometimes, people deserve to have their faith rewarded"

Harvey was the biggest plot device in the film. If not for his tragic downfall of Dent, the Batman character would not have been fully developed by the end of the third act.

 

[DiFabio]

I'm the backbone of sideshowfreaks.


Through everyone's discussion, namely any argument between two characters, er I mean board members (Nam *cough* Alex Logan *cough* *cough*) the audience explores the ideals or lack there of of DiFabio.

 

[thenammagazine]

the Batman character would not have been fully developed by the end of the third act.

But from what we already know about TDKR, he's not. Apparently, he still needs to have his ass handed to him and retire for 8 years and then come back before being fully realized. Which leans toward him simply being a plot device in TDK. That's not to say his character didn't grow, it did, but Batman wasn't the focal point. Dent was.

 

[DiFabio]

Harvey was the biggest plot device in the film. If not for his tragic downfall of Dent, the Batman character would not have been fully developed by the end of the third act.

Why did Dent experience his "tragic" downfall?

Just imagine Ledger Dying while filming Avengers !!!

Depends. Who would Ledger have been playing, Black Widow?

 

[ZaCHw117]

But from what we already know about TDKR, he's not. Apparently, he still needs to have his ass handed to him and retire for 8 years and then come back before being fully realized. Which leans toward him simply being a plot device in TDK. That's not to say his character didn't grow, it did, but Batman wasn't the focal point. Dent was.

Yes, I agree. I meant for TDK in particular as a stand alone part of the now "trilogy", not looking at it as a whole.

Obviously, Nolan and Co. Are treading closely to the line of the traditional greek epic "hero" story arch here. (think The Odyssey). So it will be interesting to see what is in store for Batman's character come the third chapter. Usually, that's when the main protagonist embraces his values as a hero or menace.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Why did Dent experience his "tragic" downfall?

Rachel's death and yes, Joker's push. But they were plot devices, for the Batman's character. And eventually, to show the "values" themes at the end of the film.

 

[intothevoid]

All because Dent was supposedly soooooo great and so good despite ever really being that great or good.

The whole "hero with a face" and "symbol of hope" crap was a plot device for Bruce/Batman. That's all it was. Bruce sitting at the table getting all starry-eyed because this guy is talking about Caesar, Rome, and heroes becoming villains was ridiculous. Batman shouldn't be so quick to hand the city over to a guy he just meant.

I agree that Dent wasn't all that good - he clearly had a bad side to him even before Two Face, that is both hinted and shown as you say.

But that's not the point - he was the 'hero with a face' because he came up with a way to keep the streets clean without even a shot fired. He did what Batman couldn't do. But more than that, he gave the average person a role model to look up to and be inspired by.

In TDK, Bruce/Batman is shown to be providing the wrong sort of inspiration to Gotham - instead of inspiring people to believe in the 'system' and due course of law, he's inspiring vigilantes taking the law into their own hands. This is shown to us pretty clearly.

Bruce doesn't want to inspire Gotham in that way - so he figures he needs someone conventional - someone who doesn't have to hide behind a mask. Dent fits the bill, he's not perfect - and Bruce knows this because he witnesses the incident with the Joker thug posing an a honor gaurd - but if he can continue to do a good job as DA, he may just work.

So when we come to the end, and it's all gone to hell with Dent not only dead, but turning out to have completely lost it following Rachel's death, Batman thinks that Gotham would really lose all hope if they find out what actually happened. So he takes the fall for it to try and create this false martyr - the hero gotham needs for that moment, in order to counter the fact that the Joker actually won and proved his point with Dent.

That's where TDKR picks up from what we know - this sacrifice of Batman's work's for a period of time, but since it was all based on a lie, it's a fragile situation, and things are not as good as they seem on the surface.

Following this logic, I think at the end of TDKR Batman will finally become the hero that gotham needs, the one that they deserve. Whether his fate will parallel Dent's ie he too will be martyred, but this time a true martyr, not a made up one - I don't know.

 

[thenammagazine]

Yes, I agree. I meant for TDK in particular as a stand alone part of the now "trilogy", not looking at it as a whole.

Obviously, Nolan and Co. Are treading closely to the line of the traditional greek epic "hero" story arch here. (think The Odyssey). So it will be interesting to see what is in store for Batman's character come the third chapter. Usually, that's when the main protagonist embraces his values as a hero or menace.

Yup, in the overall scheme of things, it's the classic rise, fall, rise above story.

 

[ZaCHw117]

Yup, in the overall scheme of things, it's the classic rise, fall, rise above story.

Exactly. It's just the characters and other plot elements that makes the ride thrilling and very enjoyable.

 

[DiFabio]

But that's not the point - he was the 'hero with a face' because he came up with a way to keep the streets clean without even a shot fired. He did what Batman couldn't do. But more than that, he gave the average person a role model to look up to and be inspired by.

Couldn't have done it if Batman didn't bring in Lau from Hong Kong.

The legalities of Batman are never really made clear. They specifically show that all of Gotham, as well as the GPD know that Batman, Gordon and Dent are working with each other. Batman shows up at crime scenes for god's sake! Isn't Batman a vigilante, isn't that illegal? TDK walks a fine line of going the 60's route in giving Batman a badge.

Lau being brought in by a criminal wouldn't fly (lol), neither would the RICO case.

So Dent is basically a better role model than Batman because he doesn't wear a mask. Yeah, I get it, and that's the intent, clearly, but damn if it isn't a contrived one. That's one of my biggest problems with this series. The fact that Batman wants to "inspire" something other than fear. Batman's above the law, countless of stories depict this. In fact in Batman's mind, his views and ideals are his law. He shouldn't even be working with the police. By the end it's actually a "GOOD" thing that he's being hunted because he's back to square one. It was cool in Begins seeing young, college student Wayne question "justice" and saying that the system and ____ doesn't work. Then that's quickly done away with when he's babbling on about inspiring hope in others and wanting a new DA on the block to take his place.

Batman and Dent should not like each other.

 

[karamazov80]

I agree with Void in a sense in that Dark Knight didn't feel like it was about any one character to me. Yes, it covered the course of the fall of Two Face, while for Joker and Batman it was simply a middle chapter in their respective stories. But that doesn't mean the story was ultimately about him IMO. It was about all of those characters in some respect. Stories don't logically have to be about a primary protagonist and a primary antagonist, and they don't need to do that to succeed. Pulp Fiction wasn't a story about one character in particular.

 

[jye4ever]

This thread is supposed to be about Avengers vs TDK, not Joker vs Dent.*




Besides, all these movies are about if Hot Toys got the likeness right or not.


I kid, I kid, great toilet reading material from void/DiFabio/Nam/Zach.

 

[ZaCHw117]

You haul your windows 95 PC into your bathroom every time you ____?

 

[thenammagazine]

You haul your windows 95 PC into your bathroom every time you ____?

 

[ZaCHw117]