The Avengers VS The Dark Knight

[jye4ever]

 

[DarkMagic]

Couldn't have done it if Batman didn't bring in Lau from Hong Kong.

The legalities of Batman are never really made clear. They specifically show that all of Gotham, as well as the GPD know that Batman, Gordon and Dent are working with each other. Batman shows up at crime scenes for god's sake! Isn't Batman a vigilante, isn't that illegal? TDK walks a fine line of going the 60's route in giving Batman a badge.

Lau being brought in by a criminal wouldn't fly (lol), neither would the RICO case.

So Dent is basically a better role model than Batman because he doesn't wear a mask. Yeah, I get it, and that's the intent, clearly, but damn if it isn't a contrived one. That's one of my biggest problems with this series. The fact that Batman wants to "inspire" something other than fear. Batman's above the law, countless of stories depict this. In fact in Batman's mind, his views and ideals are his law. He shouldn't even be working with the police. By the end it's actually a "GOOD" thing that he's being hunted because he's back to square one. It was cool in Begins seeing young, college student Wayne question "justice" and saying that the system and ____ doesn't work. Then that's quickly done away with when he's babbling on about inspiring hope in others and wanting a new DA on the block to take his place.

Batman and Dent should not like each other.

It's not just TDK walking a fine line. This is actually not a radical departure from other interpretations of Batman in the comics and the animated series. Batman is a vigilante, and yes that is illegal, but Gordon always maintains plausible deniability. When Dent asks him a direct question about Batman-

Gordon: "Official policy is to arrest the vigilante known as Batman on sight."

Plausible deniability.

Even though Gordon, Dent, and Batman conspire to extradite Lau from HK, the public doesn't know this, and when Lau--a wanted man-- "randomly" gets delivered to Police HQ, there's no evidence that he was brought in illegally by a vigilante, and it's not in the interest of the cops or D.A. to dig too hard to find out how he got there. When a reporter asks Dent directly if Batman had anything to do with bringing Lau back-

Dent: "I don't know about Mr. Lau's travel arrangements, but I'm sure glad he's here."

Plausible deniability.

I think it's reasonable for both Dent and the cops to have a favorable opinion of Batman, and want to work with him (at least early in the film, before he becomes a "villain" in their eyes). Yes, he's a vigilante, but he's clearly no amateur like his acolytes, and he gets results. He's out there assisting them without screwing up and making a bigger mess for them to deal with like an amateur crimefighter would. Secondly, they like him because he is an illegal vigilante. This comes up often in the comics. Batman's hands aren't tied by the law and due process. He will do almost anything necessary in the name of justice. Ever see a cop dangle someone off a ledge to get info from them? Dent and the cops have to be frustrated, especially in a town like Gotham where so many criminals can walk or game the system to get off. It's nice to know they've got someone on their team that also isn't "playing fair". Gordon and Dent are sworn to publicly uphold the law, but they understand that in a town like Gotham, sometimes you've got to privately bend the rules in the name of justice to get things done. "Like" is probably too chummy sounding of a word, but of course Batman and Dent respect each other, and see the advantage of having the other around as an ally. In Year One, Frank Miller even has Batman form an alliance with Dent before he forms one with Gordon.

Still, Nolan shows that some cops are peeved by Batman's involvement at crime scenes. Ramirez speaks up about him a few times (which is ironic, since she herself was compromised).

Batman has always skirted the line between what is legal and illegal, it is not a dilemma new to this series. "Officially" the police can't sanction or even condone his involvement, but he still operates with some rules in the majority of the comics---he doesn't view himself as the final judgement on the law. He's still got his one rule, and Gordon has warned him that he would lead the charge to bring him in if he ever crossed that line.

There's several clues that Gordon knows exactly who Batman is (in the comics, and in this specific film series), but he's not going to give up his plausible deniability to arrest someone that does so much good.

 

[DiFabio]

Can't argue with that. Good points.

However, I still have a hard time believing that the public doesn't realize that Batman, Gordon and Dent are conspiring with each other. The MCU building is surrounded by other, larger buildings. Surely they would catch a glimpse of the trio or at least, the Bat-signal.

I know they quickly address this with the comment about a certain malfunctioning floodlight but it doesn't seem like enough. Batman's involvement with law isn't really a plausible one. For me, Gordon is as far as his legal allies should go. I sort of like that whole trio crime fighting force made famous by a Long Halloween. You know, Batman bringing in the criminals, Gordon booking them and Dent accusing them but it's still a little too much.

The Dark Knight pretty much throws every concept and plot into the story. In general, I love stories where Batman/Bruce Wayne cynical of everyone around him and doesn't trust them. You get glimpses of this when he's keeping tabs on Dent and Rachel. But the concept is quickly dropped and he immediately is stuck on the idea to give up and let Dent run the city. It's like the film doesn't have time to deal with or really let certain ideas marinate in the audience's mind.

 

[jye4ever]

I thought Dent's turn to the Sith was effective, the focus on his good side and love for the wampa were the reasons why.

 

[DiFabio]

Yeah but did Dent really have to threaten all those innocent yuenglings?

His turn to the Dark Side was contrived. I never bought how easily swayed Dent became after his encounter with Emperor Joker.

 

[Voorhees27]

Yeah but did Dent really have to threaten all those innocent yuenglings?

His turn to the Dark Side was contrived. I never bought how easily swayed Dent became after his encounter with Emperor Joker.

I'm still cheezed dat dhey tuk Lewk Skywokers cameeyo owt of the moovee.

 

[jye4ever]

Yeah but did Dent really have to threaten all those innocent yuenglings?

His turn to the Dark Side was contrived. I never bought how easily swayed Dent became after his encounter with Emperor Joker.

 

[intothevoid]

The Dark Knight pretty much throws every concept and plot into the story. In general, I love stories where Batman/Bruce Wayne cynical of everyone around him and doesn't trust them. You get glimpses of this when he's keeping tabs on Dent and Rachel. But the concept is quickly dropped and he immediately is stuck on the idea to give up and let Dent run the city. It's like the film doesn't have time to deal with or really let certain ideas marinate in the audience's mind.

There are definitely a cramming of ideas in TDK

I read/saw in an interview with Nolan that they basically wanted to include every good idea they had into the film so as not to be 'saving' anything for a third film which may or may not have happened

So yeah, many of the plot points or pieces of characterisation of Batman in particular would have benifitted from a little more fleshing out

Many people consider TDK to be too long but ironically I sometimes feel its so dense that it's not long enough - another reason why Begins is the better film for me

 

[intothevoid]

Yeah but did Dent really have to threaten all those innocent yuenglings?

His turn to the Dark Side was contrived. I never bought how easily swayed Dent became after his encounter with Emperor Joker.

Another good example of what I was saying with my last post

I think the switch to the dark side is much more believable if you consider Harvey having a dark side within him already. They hint at this bit I guess they should have fleshed that backstory out slightly more

Joker doesn't convert him from totally good to totally bad, he simply tips him over from good on the outside with some darkness within to bad on the outside with some good within

 

[YoNoSe]

I thought Dent's turn to the Sith was effective, the focus on his good side and love for the wampa were the reasons why.

 

[DiFabio]

Another good example of what I was saying with my last post

I think the switch to the dark side is much more believable if you consider Harvey having a dark side within him already. They hint at this bit I guess they should have fleshed that backstory out slightly more

Joker doesn't convert him from totally good to totally bad, he simply tips him over from good on the outside with some darkness within to bad on the outside with some good within

Yeah you see it with Thomas Schiff but it's just a glimpse. It's never really explored.

I think that's why there's so much analysis when it comes to TDK, especially about it's themes. The audience is left to fend for themselves after being bombarded with so many ideas.

 

[greymask]

The Dark Knight wins in storyline, plot, was overall better as a movie
But The avengers capture the essence of superhero movie better than TDK, as superhero movie should be
The poll was which is the better "movie", not "superhero movie", so I choose TDK

 

[DarkMagic]

The Dark Knight wins in storyline, plot, was overall better as a movie
But The avengers capture the essence of superhero movie better than TDK, as superhero movie should be
The poll was which is the better "movie", not "superhero movie", so I choose TDK

What the hell are you doing making an "on-topic" comment in here!

 

[jye4ever]

/\

One thing I will say, little void knows his Nolan Batman ____, color me impressed.

Well, except for how many people Joker shot.

 

[ZaCHw117]

/\

One thing I will say, little void knows his Nolan Batman ____, color me impressed.

Well, except for how many people Joker shot.

I give him ____ for that all the time.

 

[intothevoid]

It was unforgiveable

 

[CelticPredator]

Joker doesn't care about black people!

 

[DiFabio]

Worse, Joker is racist.

 

[CelticPredator]

*gasp*................

 

[jye4ever]

It was unforgiveable

Looks like it