The Dark Knight Rises *SPOILERS*

[thenammagazine]

Exactly.

Stay illiterate.

 

[wofford29]

I could look at the art and still know what's going on

 

[thenammagazine]

I could look at the art and still know what's going on

Stay blind too?

 

[Valfar]

I hate Dark Knight Returns and I hate Dark Knight strikes again. Its the most boringly written stories, with the most in your face THIS IS MY POLITICAL BELIEF/THIS IS HOW WE WILL END UP. I hate writters who clearly want to put their political belief/opinions and their social commentary in your face. Eurgh. Biggest waste of £20 I ever spent. If anyone needs something to start a fire with, i got two hardbacks here for you. Ill even pay postage.

Year One is a fantastic book. Every other Batman book by Millar to me, is trash. All star bats and Robin? Terrible. Sin City? Rubbish. Loved his daredevil work. 300 was good too. One thing I adore, is his cover artwork as well.

I hate Batman stories which feature superman or JLA. They become borefests instantly. If I wanted to read superman, some dicky alien who puts glasses on and everyones like 'woah, THATS not superman!' who can only be harmed by a green rock. I mean really? Whats the point in having a superhero who is invincible to everything but kryptonite? next week, superman fights lex luther. Dont worry, he doesnt have kryptonite so he will win.

I just feel that Batman gets dragged down with JLA.

Haha! all i could picture while i read what i have quoted was...

 

[batfan08]

Now that you mention it, that sounds like a Randall monologue.

 

[DiFabio]

Really? Frank Miller's did.

After decades and decades of being Batman . . . then he came back.

The decades and decades of being Batman weren't his, though. Those were decades of other writers letting Batman be Batman. He quit right after Jason Todd's death in Miller's universe, and eight years is nothing compared to coming back when you're over the hill and 20 years past your prime.

You just stated that Jason Todd's death is in Miller's book/universe (which it has), yet, Jason Todd existed before Miller even touched Batman.


So, "decades and decades" doesn't apply to Batman's career because "it was written by other writers", but Jason Todd can? What about Superman? What about Green Arrow? They all appeared in other books.


Bruce Wayne has a history of being Batman, and while it's an "elsworlds" it follows previous stories canon. So, conceivably, Miller's Batman started his crime fighting career in the early 40s, just like the "comic" Batman. It follows the same story line.


It isn't the "barely a year" Nolan Batman. This one has been doing it for decades and decades. He has a history with Rogues Gallery members, Two-Face, Joker, Superman, the Justice League, etc. etc. He's had a big career.

I don't remember it saying that he quit after Jason died anywhere in the Dark Knight Returns. It was just said he would never bring a child into battle again, which he then does anyway. Also the decades of past comic history were included in the Dark Knight Returns with comments on **** Grayson coming up with the name Batmobile and the mention of the past battles with Two Face and The Joker. Batman himself comparing himself to the Batman he was in his prime.

Yup.

It's implied in the very first conversation between Bruce and Gordon. First few pages of the book.

Nope.


Implied

Buncha things contributed to that decision . . . like the government outlawing vigilantes/heroes. Did Todd's death contribute to his pain, his decision to quit? Yup. Is it the main catalyst like RAAAAAACHEL DAWES or no need to fight just "organized" crime? Nope.

10 years since his last sighting, 7 years since he's spoken with ****, "it's a shame especially with what happened to Jason." Do the math.

Edit: Oh wait. You were the one that thinks he(The Batman)hung it up because the law told him to

What would you like me to look up. I've got it right here.

I forgot about Bruce's inner conversation after his initial conversation with Gordon. Talking to himself in the bat cave by Jason's display...

Talking about The Batman...




How many times did you say you've read it again?

This again?



From a few months back,

That's not why he quit though. Jason Todd died before heroes, such as Green Arrow and the gang were outlawed.

He does still feel upset about Jason Todd (his discussion with Gordon, the anniversary) though but it's not really the catalyst as to why he quit like it was with Rachel.




And still, not really sure what point you're trying to convey. Because Nolan and Co. followed it on the surface, that it somehow makes it good and that I should like it and open it with welcome arms? Hmmmm

So you're telling me Batman stopped because some suits told him to? This is the crazy kinda Batman you like?

You keep saying it's only on the surface, but it's not. The same motivations are there.

Yep, I said they were similar on the surface but, characterization wise, motivating wise? They're completely different.



Batman doesn't willingly retire, he's forced to by the Government. Heroes are outlawed.

Nothing really tragic there.



Comes back because he chooses to come back because he can't handle not being Batman and is fixated on eliminating crime. Crime just so happens to drop until the Joker returns (where's the Joker in TDKR?)

I love how desperately people try to connect the quality of "TDKR" to The Dark Knight Returns just because of similarities that Nolan and Co. have "borrowed" from. From cop discussions to "retirement", etc. They took from other comics too, even some bad ones. Does that make it good too? Nope.


Returns' story AND Batman is MUCH better, from imagery, symbolism to characterization. Bruce is an older man with years of crime fighting under his belt. His world still has inhabitants like the Joker, Two-Face and others. The city is a hell hole, there isn't some magical "Dent Act" that conveniently makes Gotham "peace time". Batman has had son's that he's taken in and trained. He's had all kinds of loss. His parents' death is still potent and a part of his trauma. The Batman persona talks to him. Alfred is by his side, 100%.

I could go on and on.


Wofford clings to the notion that "Batman quit because of Jason Todd" because it connects to TDKR's inferior story of Batman quitting because of Rachel Dawes, "city doesn't need him", etc. That's all he's got.

For him and others, TDKR = TDKR but in reality TDKR doesn't equal THE TDKR. JUST on the surface.


And the Bruce in Returns doesn't "retire" or give up, he keeps on going. He fakes his death because the government wants his ***, not because "he wants to live a happy life in Italy because his gay butler wants it for him". In Returns, his butler is DEAD. His house and assets burned and liquidated. He starts a new life as he approaches his senior life . . . a life of STILL fighting crime. That's not quitting, he's planning and putting together a group to work with him in his war on crime. He'll fight till the day he dies, he's just forced to hang up the cowl for a second time.


That's a crucial difference between the two that people posting all the similarities (to make Nolan's TDKR seem good no doubt) always forget to leave out.

 

[wofford29]

Difabio you're as wrong as Nam and none of your points regarding the text are valid. My discussion in this particular matter is exclusive of anything involving the film. It's not an opinion it's in the literature. It's absolutely ridiculous to argue that Batman in Millers novel quits because the government outlaws heros. Really? Batman, the guy that regularly beats the **** out of cops and has always done things his way is going to take pause because of the government? The same government that still exists when he makes his decision to come back again. So he listens to them for 10 years and then decides he's not going to listen to them? The text says it plainly. He quit because of his regret and guilt of what happened to Jason Todd. It's why Gordon asks him about Grayson at the beginning, it's why Gordon mentions Todd, it's why he goes home and has his inner monologue about having to fight off the temptation of becoming Batman again. He says it plain as day. He made a promise to Jason. That has abso****inglutley nothing to do with worrying about another partner. He's not even back on the streets yet at this point and is fighting the urge to put the cowl back on. You can connect it to whatever you'd like. I made a reference to it back in the day because it is similar in a lot of regards. It can't be anymore clear. And who the **** wouldn't link bits and pieces of different stories? It's the ****ing source they drew inspiration from. I'm clinging to facts that you and Nam can't swallow because you're both forehead deep in your own verbal diarrhea. You're wrong(period)

 

[DiFabio]

Wait until you get home to type out your posts and not your phone or whatever you used for that.




1. The vigilante act is mentioned just as many times as Todd, if not more. Tell me where in the book it states out right that he stopped because of Todd or where it says that the act came before Todd's death. If anything, there are multiple reasons for him hanging it up. Gordon also asks if Bruce talked to Grayson, and Batman thinks Kelly is Grayson a few times, does that mean Grayson was the reason he quit too? Their relationship was severed like most incarnations of Batman and Robin.



2. Taking from the sources is fine, that doesn't make it good, especially if it's utilized wrong. That's where this whole thing started. You, and others think that just because Returns was used as a reference and some things were directly used for their movie, that anyone that doesn't think highly of TDKR, should feel the same about Returns. They're not one in the same, even if TDKR delves into similar scenarios taken directly from the book. If anything, Returns is a better story and has much better writing.


3. Stop swearing in your posts, it doesn't make you any less wrong or more right. You can get your point across just fine without it. We both know you can convey your thoughts better and that you're not dim-witted.

 

[wofford29]

My phone works just fine. If you're offended by cussing, put me on ignore, ****er. You're jumping into a conversation between Nam and myself that was only about the graphic novel. If you want to participate, welcome, if you want to circle back to the film start fresh and have a point. As for the graphic novel. Even the people at wiki got it right...

Bruce Wayne, now 55, has voluntarily retired from crime fighting following the death (under unspecified circumstances) of Jason Todd, the second Robin. In the absence of superheroes, criminals run amok, and in Gotham a new breed of criminals known as the Mutants terrorizes Gotham City.

 

[DiFabio]

My phone works just fine. If you're offended by cussing, put me on ignore, ****er. You're jumping into a conversation between Nam and myself that was only about the graphic novel. If you want to participate, welcome, if you want to circle back to the film start fresh and have a point. As for the graphic novel. Even the people at wiki got it right...

Eh, not offended, you just look stupid posting like that. No worse than what you accuse werewolfmask for. You try to play it cool, act like you're not bothered, but with posts and name calling like that, you look anything but frustrated. I don't think I've called you a name yet, and there you are resorting to it.


Wiki, what a great source.


Looking at the book right now. Came across the convo with Gordon and Bruce. Ginger ale, old friends catching up, hasn't talk to Grayson for 7 years, UP, there's talk of Jason Todd. Been a while since I've looked at this.

Sounds like the book is telling us that Jason Todd is in this universe and has died.


Here's Batman talking about Robins, Alfred talking about Kelly. Jason Todd honored Batman. War goes on.

Here's some talk about the act. Green Arrow talking about it. Superman talking about it. Sounds like it was a decade ago . . . around the time Bruce stopped being Batman.

 

[wofford29]

It's apparently doing a better job of sourcing than the two of you.

 

[DiFabio]

Yeah, we're just too stupid for you eh Wofford? You know everything, that's why you're doing what you're doing right now.

 

[wofford29]

Never said that, but you're both wrong as **** when it comes to the graphic novel, on this particular matter, and neither of you have the ***** to admit it.

 

[DiFabio]

I'm looking through this thing, I'll admit, I haven't read it in awhile. I was really into it a few years ago, read it all the time. Maybe I missed or forgot something. Then again, I recently watched the animated movie and don't remember him saying, "I STOPPED BECAUSE TODD DIED".


Sincerely, this is what I'm looking at right now. This edition with everything in it (didn't buy them individually or in parts),

Cover is just a bit different, maybe a little earlier.




I've scanned it for everything "Jason Todd". If you can tell me a page number or an instance (part 1, scenes whatever) where he says he has stopped because of Todd, I'll humbly shut it and admit I'm wrong (though TDKR, the Nolan feature length still sucks, even with it's inspiration from this better written book).

 

[BadMoon]

This thread sucks.

 

[wofford29]

You quoted the direct quote I copied from the book just one page back.

it's a Badmoon sighting. How was the birthday?

 

[DiFabio]

Gordon and Bruce drinking?

 

[BadMoon]

You quoted the direct quote I copied from the book just one page back.

it's a Badmoon sighting. How was the birthday?

Awesome. Thanks.

 

[wofford29]

Fab it's a few pages after that. He's standing in the Batcave with Todd's memorial illuminated in the background having an inner monologue with himself about The Batman tempting him, but he made a promise to Jason.

 

[DiFabio]

Okay, so in the beginning of the book where he shaves his mustache. Flipping to it now.