The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***

[devilof76]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

How do you feel about him killing Dent?

It was an accident. Your whole nonsense about Batman still being Batman, even if he kills, only means anything if Batman is a conscious, willing, remorseless killer.

If he has a choice, or the power to stop it, Dent would have lived. If he didn't feel remorse for Dent's death, then you might be able to say that Nolan's Batman is a killer.

What matters here is whether the man's moral character is tolerant of the loss of life by his own hands. That's a killer. Nothing about Nolan's Batman suggests that his character is anything remotely similar to the character you are suggesting as an acceptable interpretation.

Or do you even LIKE Batman films?

Yes. Both of them.

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Well this is better than, "D-d-d-d-did Two-Face die? He's coming back in the next movie right?"

Well if he didn't die then Batman didn't kill him.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah, I don't think it was an accident. If Batman put down a banana peel and Dent accidentally slipped and fell into the pit, then Batman accidentally killed him.

Here, Batman was just shot by Dent (we know Batman hates guns) and he's threatening a child and a family. Batman doesn't want to risk tragedy so he uses excessive force and man handles Dent, off a ledge.

Couldn't Batman have thrown a trusty Batarang to knock out Dent's pistol? Or since he was fast enough to grab them all anyway, rip the ____ing pistol from his hands.

I'll agree with you about remorse though. Batman is clearly saddened by what he has done and what has happened. I also think that's one of the reasons he takes the blame for what happened, because he killed Dent.

 

[Voorhees27]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah, I don't think it was an accident. If Batman put down a banana peel and Dent accidentally slipped and fell into the pit, then Batman accidentally killed him.

Here, Batman was just shot by Dent (we know Batman hates guns) and he's threatening a child and a family. Batman doesn't want to risk tragedy so he uses excessive force and man handles Dent, off a ledge.

Couldn't Batman have thrown a trusty Batarang to knock out Dent's pistol? Or since he was fast enough to grab them all anyway, rip the ____ing pistol from his hands.

I'll agree with you about remorse though. Batman is clearly saddened by what he has done and what has happened. I also think that's one of the reasons he takes the blame for what happened, because he killed Dent.

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[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I call being Bullhorn!

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

What if people are in those cars? How about the Garbage man thug? Surely he's dead (Batman rams the Batmobile right into it which destroys the entire front of the vehicle when it smashes into the top of the tunnels ceiling).

I didn't see a body.

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I've never cared for the police car chase in Batman Begins because there's really no way he could do all that and ensure those cops would survive. If we're going to complain about him killing Dent or thugs, it's a million times worse to kill innocent cops just doing their job.

But as others pointed out, it is exciting and a movie so it works.

 

[YoNoSe]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah we just need to imagine some Cobra parachutes for those coppers.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

What about TEH REALISM?

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I've never cared for the police car chase in Batman Begins because there's really no way he could do all that and ensure those cops would survive.

I hated right after the first car he smashes Gordon goes "I got to get me one of those".

Batman almost pancaked those two officers!

 

[cr`]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

i thought it was funny in ang lee's hulk that after the hulk spins and throws away a tank halfway across the desert, ang lee added the shot of the soldiers coming out of said tank unscathed. comic book heroes cant be seen as killers, it seems.

batman dont kill though. just have to throw my 2 cents in there. his parents were killed, hence he doesnt kill. that's his whole deal. which is why it was stupid in begins when he left ra's to die in that train. of course nolan thought it was stupid too, that's why he let batman pulled joker up the second time around.

and there's a huge difference between killing by intention, and killing by accident. dent's death was an accident, it was no murder. if he could he would have saved both dent and the kid.

 

[cr`]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

ok i think you can get some clue about the 3rd film by deconstructing the last 2 films. hear me out. if you have to explain the theme or the color of the first movie in one word, what would it be?

fear. correct? wayne's fear of the bat, scarecrow, ra's using fear toxin to spread fear to everyone, etc. the fear motifs are all over the 1st film. and if we were to have escalation from that, what would it be?

madness. hence you have the joker and his gang of former arkham inmates running around wild. you can even see the characters as personification of the different stages of madness - batman(restrained/masked) -> dent(halfway there, hence his two faces) -> joker(face as white as the padded cell in a looney bin, complete unrestrained madness).

so then you have fear in the 1st film, that escalates into madness in the 2nd film, that escalates again in the 3rd film into...?

i think 'despair' sounds just about right. i believe that will be the chosen motif for the next film. just dont know who is the villain(s) who will best personify that motif. anyone? i still think nolan should create his own original villain for this 3rd round.

 

[Cap'n Cook]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah, I don't think it was an accident. If Batman put down a banana peel and Dent accidentally slipped and fell into the pit, then Batman accidentally killed him.

Here, Batman was just shot by Dent (we know Batman hates guns) and he's threatening a child and a family. Batman doesn't want to risk tragedy so he uses excessive force and man handles Dent, off a ledge.

Couldn't Batman have thrown a trusty Batarang to knock out Dent's pistol? Or since he was fast enough to grab them all anyway, rip the ____ing pistol from his hands.

I'll agree with you about remorse though. Batman is clearly saddened by what he has done and what has happened. I also think that's one of the reasons he takes the blame for what happened, because he killed Dent.

Bats was down after being shot.

All he could do was make a sudden leap/lunge at Two Face to try and save Gordon's boy.

If he had taken the time to take out a Batarang Two Face would have seen and just shot him again.


Accidental. Batman does not kill. devilof summed it up better.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

i thought it was funny in ang lee's hulk that after the hulk spins and throws away a tank halfway across the desert, ang lee added the shot of the soldiers coming out of said tank unscathed. comic book heroes cant be seen as killers, it seems.

batman dont kill though. just have to throw my 2 cents in there. his parents were killed, hence he doesnt kill. that's his whole deal. which is why it was stupid in begins when he left ra's to die in that train. of course nolan thought it was stupid too, that's why he let batman pulled joker up the second time around.

and there's a huge difference between killing by intention, and killing by accident. dent's death was an accident, it was no murder. if he could he would have saved both dent and the kid.

Nice analysis there - Despair, through the majority of the film maybe, and then hope brought by the rise of the fallen symbol of the Batman.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Nice sig Snake.

Batman may not kill but Bateman certainly does...OR DOES HE?

 

[Cap'n Cook]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Cheers DiFabio!

That is the question....


Hopefully not too long until we see HT do yours. For the meantime though, it is like slow torture.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

If Batman doesn't kill then it's by pure damn luck because he certainly directed Gordon (and gave him the keys to his batmobile) to knock down a freaking train bridge which lead to the freaking speeding train to crash into a freaking high rise!

And please don't give me a load of crap that the city was evacuated, he could never guarantee that.

He's a destructive force in Nolan's world.

He blindly shoots rocket grenades into parked cars

Simply by luck that he doesn't kill.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Hmm, I don't know. People seem to be missing the fact that these are just films. When I make my defenses it's usually for the film itself be it TDK or in the case before, '89 Batman. Not really keen on defending fictional character's beliefs, thoughts and goals.

By that logic Bruce Wayne killed most of the members of the League of Shadows, fake Ras and the prisoner (that would be ironic) he refused to execute from the explosions and fires he intentionally caused.

I can't agree with that.

 

[Agent0028]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I think the thing is that it is easy for comic Batman to be amazing and not kill at all because there is a higher level of suspension of belief; however, for the movies to reach a wider audience that doesn't work.

Plus, its a movie and people want to see explosions and car crashes and it is hard to do that without the possibilty of casualties.

Personally, I've always thought it makes no sense that Batman refuses to kill the Joker. Of course that would suck since we'd lose a major Batman villain, but seriously, how many innocent lives are on Batman's hands because he keeps his own conscience clean by letting Joker live.

 

[DiFabio]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I always assumed that was one of the reasons they decided to give him the no killing rule too.

How long would a villain like the Joker or Two-Face last if Batman could kill them? It's okay to do in the films, you're telling a 2-3 hour story but in the comics, that ____ doesn't fly.

Introduce the "no killing" rule and the main villains can keep coming back for new stories.

In fact I think in the first story they have together Batman does kill the Joker or something like that. Either he kills him and they changed it in later issues or they rewrote it so that the Joker wouldn't die, not sure. Either way, he came back because he was too good a villain to simply kill off, never to be used again.