The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***
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DarkMagic
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
What? Sounds like he's basing his opinion on having seen the Avengers.
Here, you're clearly basing your opinion on "what we've seen of TDKR so far", not the whole film.
Who's assuming more?
You know what happens when you assume, right?
What? Sounds like he's basing his opinion on having seen the Avengers.
And given what we've seen of TDKR so far, clearly inspired by him too!
Here, you're clearly basing your opinion on "what we've seen of TDKR so far", not the whole film.
Who's assuming more?
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I think you two need to get a room. Then you can argue over who gets the Robin Underoos.
I think you two need to get a room. Then you can argue over who gets the Robin Underoos.
DarkMagic
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Again, sidetrack the focus instead of directly addressing the point of the comment.
I'm not defending his opinion that Avengers is like a Bay film, I'm defending that at least he's making it based on experience of seeing the whole movie.
I think you two need to get a room. Then you can argue over who gets the Robin Underoos.
Again, sidetrack the focus instead of directly addressing the point of the comment.
I'm not defending his opinion that Avengers is like a Bay film, I'm defending that at least he's making it based on experience of seeing the whole movie.
Stroking Nolan's nether regions by putting AVENGERS in the same company as INDEPENDENCE DAY? That's a new one.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I think they are quite similar in tone, style, and partly in subject matter
I do think Avengers is a far better film though, and the best of its kind.
I think they are quite similar in tone, style, and partly in subject matter
I do think Avengers is a far better film though, and the best of its kind.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I love intothevoid's villains sig. My shelf might look like that if this movie's good.
I love intothevoid's villains sig. My shelf might look like that if this movie's good.
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I'm waiting for the, "Well it's clear you just didn't understand the movie." excuse.
I'm waiting for the, "Well it's clear you just didn't understand the movie." excuse.
Deckard
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Gimme a break, I'm no Nolan fanboy, I think so far this movie looks incredibly underwhelming and lame.
I already explained why the comparison fits, Big budget summer ensembles about saving the world from aliens to showcase the latest in movie effects. Claiming the Avengers is anything more is doing the stroking. I have no doubt Avengers will be the better movie but thats the genre it's in.
Gimme a break, I'm no Nolan fanboy, I think so far this movie looks incredibly underwhelming and lame.
I already explained why the comparison fits, Big budget summer ensembles about saving the world from aliens to showcase the latest in movie effects. Claiming the Avengers is anything more is doing the stroking. I have no doubt Avengers will be the better movie but thats the genre it's in.
They're both big-budget popcorn flicks featuring an alien invasion and lots of explosions. But the similarities pretty much end there. Independence Day is a pretty damn crappy movie. Avengers isn't the best thing ever, but it's fundamentally better in almost every way. Anyone that classifies them as the same is either being dishonest or has a screw or 7 loose.
intothevoid
Super Freak
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I was pretty taken aback by this as well. I'm sure the nerd hyperbole about how fantastic The Avengers is will be high, most likely from myself included after my viewing but to throw it into the same horrible category of that film is laughable. Just the sneaked clips is better than that whole movie.
I understand the Nolanites praying at his altar hard with this being the last go-around (sort of, who know how much say he'll have in the new ones) but I never thought it'd get to the point where the Whedonones were the rational group. (not just that particular post reference but all around the web too, it's cult-like at this point)
I was pretty taken aback by this as well. I'm sure the nerd hyperbole about how fantastic The Avengers is will be high, most likely from myself included after my viewing but to throw it into the same horrible category of that film is laughable. Just the sneaked clips is better than that whole movie.
I understand the Nolanites praying at his altar hard with this being the last go-around (sort of, who know how much say he'll have in the new ones) but I never thought it'd get to the point where the Whedonones were the rational group. (not just that particular post reference but all around the web too, it's cult-like at this point)
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I guess the comparison was lost - I actually REALLY liked Independence Day, a lot!
Don't know about Deckard.
Anyway it all comes back to - Nolans Batman flicks and Marvels Comic Flicks leading up to and including Avengers, are completely different styles of movies, literally just about the only thing in common is the fact that they are based on popular comic book characters.
You can compare them in terms of how much money each makes, but beyond that any comparisons really amount to one person's taste versus another's. If you prefer your movies to be serious and thought provoking, the Nolan films are for you. If you prefer to just have a good time, laugh, and see the good guys win at the end, then the Marvel films are for you - a little crude, but that's ultimately what I think.
I guess the comparison was lost - I actually REALLY liked Independence Day, a lot!
Don't know about Deckard.
Anyway it all comes back to - Nolans Batman flicks and Marvels Comic Flicks leading up to and including Avengers, are completely different styles of movies, literally just about the only thing in common is the fact that they are based on popular comic book characters.
You can compare them in terms of how much money each makes, but beyond that any comparisons really amount to one person's taste versus another's. If you prefer your movies to be serious and thought provoking, the Nolan films are for you. If you prefer to just have a good time, laugh, and see the good guys win at the end, then the Marvel films are for you - a little crude, but that's ultimately what I think.
The Mike
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I'm not really sure how thought provoking the Nolan films are in my opinion but I can see the point being made as Marvel films do have a lot of that popcorn factor.
What will be interesting to me is how DC/WB handles it from here. The Nolan films set a tone for the entire genre no matter how you think of them, they set a real way for people to handle these licenses seriously and not in a campy fashion but as was pointed out the Nolan films and the Marvel stable are different, at times radically different.
Given that WB wants their own Avengers in the Justice League and the sole purpose of them rebooting Batman is to fold him into a film continuity (that never got fully established or even established really) I'm interested to see how Batman 2.0 handles it as it may set the tone for the film universe. Will it attempt to be like the Nolan films? Or depart into a more Marvelesque styling because it's heading in a group direction?
I'm not really sure how thought provoking the Nolan films are in my opinion but I can see the point being made as Marvel films do have a lot of that popcorn factor.
What will be interesting to me is how DC/WB handles it from here. The Nolan films set a tone for the entire genre no matter how you think of them, they set a real way for people to handle these licenses seriously and not in a campy fashion but as was pointed out the Nolan films and the Marvel stable are different, at times radically different.
Given that WB wants their own Avengers in the Justice League and the sole purpose of them rebooting Batman is to fold him into a film continuity (that never got fully established or even established really) I'm interested to see how Batman 2.0 handles it as it may set the tone for the film universe. Will it attempt to be like the Nolan films? Or depart into a more Marvelesque styling because it's heading in a group direction?
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Outside of wondering what new level of pole-hopping sycophantic fanboys will come from this one, I don't see why there'd be much "thinking" at all. The past two Batmans have been relatively straight forward. Despite what some believe, unless there're some seriously low IQs floating around the Nolancompoops, they're not a "thinking man's" movie any more or less than the Marvel films as both are "check your brain at the door and have fun" superhero jaunts.
Outside of wondering what new level of pole-hopping sycophantic fanboys will come from this one, I don't see why there'd be much "thinking" at all. The past two Batmans have been relatively straight forward. Despite what some believe, unless there're some seriously low IQs floating around the Nolancompoops, they're not a "thinking man's" movie any more or less than the Marvel films as both are "check your brain at the door and have fun" superhero jaunts.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
With respect to the thought provoking aspect:
Perhaps this has something to do with my own personal reality, but just some examples of where these films have been 'thought provoking' for me:
Batman Begins
1. Bruce Refuses to Kill
The fact that Bruce refuses to kill the guilty man on the LoS's orders, because he believes his compassion is what separates him from the criminals. Ra's and Decoy Ra's try to reason with him that 'criminals mock societies' laws and understanding' and that any due course criminals face is at the behest of corrupt bureaucrats, so therefore, the only way to serve justice is to take the law into your own hands.
My Thoughts:
Having grown up in a city chock full of corruption (Karachi, Pakistan), and where criminals roam free, knowing that even if they are caught, they can easily bribe judges/officials and get away with anything, the LoS line of thinking has a surface appeal to me. Yet I am drawn towards Bruce's idealism because despite how bad things are, seeing his approach makes me cling to the hope that if people start setting examples by doing 'the right thing', maybe it will latch on and things will begin to improve.
2. Gotham Must be Destroyed / LoS Ideology
LoS believes that when a city reaches 'the height of its decadence' it must be purged and allowed to re-establish itself from the ground up. Collateral damage is an acceptable cost.
My Thoughts:
Again, coming from a country where the Islamic Extremist idealogy has taken hold in a certain corner of society, sometimes you think maybe the best way to fix this problem is to just blow the whole place away, and start fresh. Here again though, I am drawn to the idealist approach, to fix the situation from within by offering people hope, this is going to be a key theme of 'Rises' as well, quite clearly.
3. Ambiguity of Batman's 'One Rule'
He doesn't believe in killing yet he let's Ra's die, with the justification that he doesn't have to save him.
My Thoughts:
A bitter pill to swallow having seen Bruce and Batman be so idealistic, yet letting Ra's die. Not sure how I really feel about it but I guess made me think about moral grey areas in general.
The Dark Knight
1. 'You thought we could be decent men, in an indecent time'
Harvey is convinced by the Joker, that 'the only morality in a cruel world is chance'. He sees no value in his former idealism, no hope in continuing to try and fight the good fight, because ultimately, in a messed up world, something is always going to come back and bite you in the ass. In his case, with Rachel's death.
My Thoughts:
Again, similar theme of idealism, and whether it is worth it. Makes you think whether you have to compromise on your values and just play by the rules that society has set. For example, again, where I come from, it is often impossible to get a business deal done without having to pay someone (usually a government official) a bribe. Therefore, most people succumb to this and justify themselves by claiming that the only way to survive in such a corrupt society is to be at least a certain level of corrupt oneself. If you want to fight the good fight, you have a much harder road to travel, and no certainty of success - so why do it?
2. 'Their morals, their code, it's a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble'
Joker goes on.. 'they're only as good as the world allows them to be', 'when the chips are down, these civilized people, will eat each other'..
And this again rings very true for me. He also says: 'they need you right now, when they don't, they'll cast you out'.
My Thoughts:
Society has devolved into a despicable level of selfishness. People are only supported in their causes so long as the wider society can in some way benefit from what said person is trying to achieve. The moment it goes against their interests (whether or not the cause is 'right' or 'just'), they will caste the person out. Seen many examples of this
3. 'At what cost'
Batman indulges in the ultimate invasion of privacy by using the cellphone signals of all Gotham's citizen's to make a 'sonar map' of the entire city, to locate the joker's whereabouts.
My Thoughts:
This gets me thinking about the kind of information the likes of Google or Facebook have about individuals and in aggregate, about entire societies, and the potential misuse of this information. While Batman used the information for a good cause, to find Joker and apprehend him, in the wrong hands, it could have been used for all sorts of criminal/fraudulent activity. Many of us trust Facebook or Google with our information, but at what point should we stop doing so?
4. Why Doesn't Batman Kill Joker?
Again, comes back to his rule of not killing - but is it really worth letting this guy live? We don't see the full 'cycle' of this as we do in the comics, where Joker breaks out inevitably after being caught each time, and ends up killing more people. The endless cycle is just hinted at in the final confrontation 'we're destined to do this foreever' ...
I could honestly go on and on about these topics and many others that these films raise for me. I can already tell TDKR will raise issues of responsibilities of the rich to the poor, of dictatorship versus democracy, freedom versus oppression etc.
It's not that the films are complex to understand, it's just that for me, and for many others, they raise these kind of issues which leaves me not only entertained at the end, but intellectually stimulated as well. Like I said, i've likened most of these issues to my personal experiences, and that's the greatest thing about any sort of art, it's open to interpretation.
Watching Avengers didn't provoke any intellectual debate or stimulation for me whatsoever - that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a DIFFERENT type of film. I personally prefer the Nolan kind.
With respect to the thought provoking aspect:
Perhaps this has something to do with my own personal reality, but just some examples of where these films have been 'thought provoking' for me:
Batman Begins
1. Bruce Refuses to Kill
The fact that Bruce refuses to kill the guilty man on the LoS's orders, because he believes his compassion is what separates him from the criminals. Ra's and Decoy Ra's try to reason with him that 'criminals mock societies' laws and understanding' and that any due course criminals face is at the behest of corrupt bureaucrats, so therefore, the only way to serve justice is to take the law into your own hands.
My Thoughts:
Having grown up in a city chock full of corruption (Karachi, Pakistan), and where criminals roam free, knowing that even if they are caught, they can easily bribe judges/officials and get away with anything, the LoS line of thinking has a surface appeal to me. Yet I am drawn towards Bruce's idealism because despite how bad things are, seeing his approach makes me cling to the hope that if people start setting examples by doing 'the right thing', maybe it will latch on and things will begin to improve.
2. Gotham Must be Destroyed / LoS Ideology
LoS believes that when a city reaches 'the height of its decadence' it must be purged and allowed to re-establish itself from the ground up. Collateral damage is an acceptable cost.
My Thoughts:
Again, coming from a country where the Islamic Extremist idealogy has taken hold in a certain corner of society, sometimes you think maybe the best way to fix this problem is to just blow the whole place away, and start fresh. Here again though, I am drawn to the idealist approach, to fix the situation from within by offering people hope, this is going to be a key theme of 'Rises' as well, quite clearly.
3. Ambiguity of Batman's 'One Rule'
He doesn't believe in killing yet he let's Ra's die, with the justification that he doesn't have to save him.
My Thoughts:
A bitter pill to swallow having seen Bruce and Batman be so idealistic, yet letting Ra's die. Not sure how I really feel about it but I guess made me think about moral grey areas in general.
The Dark Knight
1. 'You thought we could be decent men, in an indecent time'
Harvey is convinced by the Joker, that 'the only morality in a cruel world is chance'. He sees no value in his former idealism, no hope in continuing to try and fight the good fight, because ultimately, in a messed up world, something is always going to come back and bite you in the ass. In his case, with Rachel's death.
My Thoughts:
Again, similar theme of idealism, and whether it is worth it. Makes you think whether you have to compromise on your values and just play by the rules that society has set. For example, again, where I come from, it is often impossible to get a business deal done without having to pay someone (usually a government official) a bribe. Therefore, most people succumb to this and justify themselves by claiming that the only way to survive in such a corrupt society is to be at least a certain level of corrupt oneself. If you want to fight the good fight, you have a much harder road to travel, and no certainty of success - so why do it?
2. 'Their morals, their code, it's a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble'
Joker goes on.. 'they're only as good as the world allows them to be', 'when the chips are down, these civilized people, will eat each other'..
And this again rings very true for me. He also says: 'they need you right now, when they don't, they'll cast you out'.
My Thoughts:
Society has devolved into a despicable level of selfishness. People are only supported in their causes so long as the wider society can in some way benefit from what said person is trying to achieve. The moment it goes against their interests (whether or not the cause is 'right' or 'just'), they will caste the person out. Seen many examples of this
3. 'At what cost'
Batman indulges in the ultimate invasion of privacy by using the cellphone signals of all Gotham's citizen's to make a 'sonar map' of the entire city, to locate the joker's whereabouts.
My Thoughts:
This gets me thinking about the kind of information the likes of Google or Facebook have about individuals and in aggregate, about entire societies, and the potential misuse of this information. While Batman used the information for a good cause, to find Joker and apprehend him, in the wrong hands, it could have been used for all sorts of criminal/fraudulent activity. Many of us trust Facebook or Google with our information, but at what point should we stop doing so?
4. Why Doesn't Batman Kill Joker?
Again, comes back to his rule of not killing - but is it really worth letting this guy live? We don't see the full 'cycle' of this as we do in the comics, where Joker breaks out inevitably after being caught each time, and ends up killing more people. The endless cycle is just hinted at in the final confrontation 'we're destined to do this foreever' ...
I could honestly go on and on about these topics and many others that these films raise for me. I can already tell TDKR will raise issues of responsibilities of the rich to the poor, of dictatorship versus democracy, freedom versus oppression etc.
It's not that the films are complex to understand, it's just that for me, and for many others, they raise these kind of issues which leaves me not only entertained at the end, but intellectually stimulated as well. Like I said, i've likened most of these issues to my personal experiences, and that's the greatest thing about any sort of art, it's open to interpretation.
Watching Avengers didn't provoke any intellectual debate or stimulation for me whatsoever - that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a DIFFERENT type of film. I personally prefer the Nolan kind.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Ugh............
Ugh............
intothevoid
Super Freak
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Nolan will join me.
Nolan will join me.
intothevoid
Super Freak
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