The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***
- Thread starter pjam
- Start date
Help Support Collector Freaks Forum:
- Status
The Mike
In the Pixels
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2006
- Messages
- 30,607
- Reaction score
- 82
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Well its simple really, you're putting thought and processes into the Nolan films that aren't there. You give an example and then immediately parallel it to something in your own life. The connections back to the film are loose at best and for some of them barely parallel.
You could do that with any film, the idea of Captain America being a man lost in time and seeing how technology has not only pushed the boundaries of education but completely juxtaposed the ideals of what humanity should/would be in the 1940s, the idea of Tony Stark attempting to redeem his past sins of war mongering by using the same technology to fight a shadow of his former self. The idea of Thor being a god amongst men, in love with a mortal and dealing with the realities of how fragile humanity really is when depowered and how sacred one sees the bloodlines of family when Loki finds out he isn't "pure". Black Widow being a woman in a male dominated industry. The Hulk is dripping with modern day overtones dating back to Frankenstein's monster and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde not only that but given that this film universe's Hulk deals with Banner looking for cures for common diseases destroying humanity, it begs the question how far is too far for Science and at what point does it turn us into raging monsters?
I could repeat the parallels for Transformers, Back to the Future, Men In Black, Clerks, whatever I wanted to if I saw fit.
You can put any slant into things that you want, you are simply choosing not to with Marvel films and waaaay overloading into Nolan's films.
None of those things are there, you put them there. If it helps you enjoy the films fine and if it makes you a better fan fine but it doesn't mean the rest are in any lesser or even different category simply because you chose to not include them as catalysts for your own thought processes.
Well its simple really, you're putting thought and processes into the Nolan films that aren't there. You give an example and then immediately parallel it to something in your own life. The connections back to the film are loose at best and for some of them barely parallel.
You could do that with any film, the idea of Captain America being a man lost in time and seeing how technology has not only pushed the boundaries of education but completely juxtaposed the ideals of what humanity should/would be in the 1940s, the idea of Tony Stark attempting to redeem his past sins of war mongering by using the same technology to fight a shadow of his former self. The idea of Thor being a god amongst men, in love with a mortal and dealing with the realities of how fragile humanity really is when depowered and how sacred one sees the bloodlines of family when Loki finds out he isn't "pure". Black Widow being a woman in a male dominated industry. The Hulk is dripping with modern day overtones dating back to Frankenstein's monster and Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde not only that but given that this film universe's Hulk deals with Banner looking for cures for common diseases destroying humanity, it begs the question how far is too far for Science and at what point does it turn us into raging monsters?
I could repeat the parallels for Transformers, Back to the Future, Men In Black, Clerks, whatever I wanted to if I saw fit.
You can put any slant into things that you want, you are simply choosing not to with Marvel films and waaaay overloading into Nolan's films.
None of those things are there, you put them there. If it helps you enjoy the films fine and if it makes you a better fan fine but it doesn't mean the rest are in any lesser or even different category simply because you chose to not include them as catalysts for your own thought processes.
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Personally, I prefer my movies about dudes dressing up as costumed heroes to focus on fun and fantasy first.
If I want something thought-provoking or intellectual I'll read a book. If I want something truly deep and intellectual dealing with this genre, I'll read Watchmen for the 217th time. Because 30 years later it still makes any other even remotely serious take on costumed heroes come across as rote and superficial.
I like the Nolan Batfilms because they're raw, well-written, well-acted and a breath of much-needed fresh air from the usual popcorn hero stuff (certainly a much-needed reprieve from the Schumacher fiasco). But you can only peel that onion so far before you realize that it's still about a bat-themed vilgilante with mommy and daddy issues and all the money in the world. Trying to make it much deeper than that is kinda silly. Trying to make that fully grounded in reality is downright laughable. Thankfully, though, it's mostly the fans that err on the latter and not so much Nolan himself. I'm pretty sure he doesn't take it even remotely as seriously. But he does closely toe that line at times.
Personally, I prefer my movies about dudes dressing up as costumed heroes to focus on fun and fantasy first.
If I want something thought-provoking or intellectual I'll read a book. If I want something truly deep and intellectual dealing with this genre, I'll read Watchmen for the 217th time. Because 30 years later it still makes any other even remotely serious take on costumed heroes come across as rote and superficial.
I like the Nolan Batfilms because they're raw, well-written, well-acted and a breath of much-needed fresh air from the usual popcorn hero stuff (certainly a much-needed reprieve from the Schumacher fiasco). But you can only peel that onion so far before you realize that it's still about a bat-themed vilgilante with mommy and daddy issues and all the money in the world. Trying to make it much deeper than that is kinda silly. Trying to make that fully grounded in reality is downright laughable. Thankfully, though, it's mostly the fans that err on the latter and not so much Nolan himself. I'm pretty sure he doesn't take it even remotely as seriously. But he does closely toe that line at times.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Then explain to me - why is it that the diehard fans of Nolan's films discuss the 'themes' and ideas in his films, yet the diehard Marvel film fans don't appear to have any such discussions?
You can't ignore the fact that the Marvel films take a completely different approach than the Nolan films do.
What is Nolan's reason for trying to 'ground' his films in a quasi reality? I think part of it is so that he can explore many of these real world issues as they relate to Batman and his story.
I don't 'choose' to make these parallels, it's what enters my mind by watching the films. I have a strong inclination to think it has to do with the way the films are made, and the tone. Watching a Marvel film, such thoughts would never enter my mind because the tone is so different, my 'real world' meter would be checked out at the front door.
Then explain to me - why is it that the diehard fans of Nolan's films discuss the 'themes' and ideas in his films, yet the diehard Marvel film fans don't appear to have any such discussions?
You can't ignore the fact that the Marvel films take a completely different approach than the Nolan films do.
What is Nolan's reason for trying to 'ground' his films in a quasi reality? I think part of it is so that he can explore many of these real world issues as they relate to Batman and his story.
I don't 'choose' to make these parallels, it's what enters my mind by watching the films. I have a strong inclination to think it has to do with the way the films are made, and the tone. Watching a Marvel film, such thoughts would never enter my mind because the tone is so different, my 'real world' meter would be checked out at the front door.
K07
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Independence Day is an awesome film. I just watched it last year on VHS for the first time in nearly a decade and was surprised how much fun it still was to me as an adult. Fun. Exactly what Avengers is supposed to be. I would clump them together in the same category and that is no knock against Avengers.
I didn't read void's super long post so won't even touch that one. Void's sig is also my desktop background and FB cover photo. And I too hope to have my Detolf looking like that. Only vertically. And with two Batmans and a Bruce.
Independence Day is an awesome film. I just watched it last year on VHS for the first time in nearly a decade and was surprised how much fun it still was to me as an adult. Fun. Exactly what Avengers is supposed to be. I would clump them together in the same category and that is no knock against Avengers.
I didn't read void's super long post so won't even touch that one. Void's sig is also my desktop background and FB cover photo. And I too hope to have my Detolf looking like that. Only vertically. And with two Batmans and a Bruce.
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2009
- Messages
- 2,814
- Reaction score
- 155
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
At their simplest, these films are about a guy in a suit with motivation, money and mental issues to spare. I do however think Nolan throws in some of his own social/political commentary...it's not the reason I love the films, but combine it with the high production values, a more grounded approach that uses less CGI, and it adds up to a series that works for me.
At their simplest, these films are about a guy in a suit with motivation, money and mental issues to spare. I do however think Nolan throws in some of his own social/political commentary...it's not the reason I love the films, but combine it with the high production values, a more grounded approach that uses less CGI, and it adds up to a series that works for me.
The Mike
In the Pixels
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2006
- Messages
- 30,607
- Reaction score
- 82
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Here. It doesn't occur here that often. Doesn't mean it doesn't occur. I've had serious discussions about every Marvel film where they warrant it. I've read diehard Nolan fans completely destroy the Batman films while praise and laud his other films like Inception and Momento. The discussions continue far past SSF. If the people here want to discuss what looked cool and what was awesome on screen I'll join them because I don't need to make every discussion on the subject matter something that has me questioning life, sometimes it's fun to explore and enjoy the mindless aspect of it. There have been plenty of posts in the Batman threads about how awesome something was or even how when someone tries to "go deep" with the film they are lost.
In fact I can, simply because the Nolan films take the approach of Christopher Nolan, any other parallel to another director is like complaining about a war movie directed by Clint Eastwood and another directed by Quentin Tarentino. None of the Marvel films took the same approach and all of them had their own issues to deal with and to figure out if one wanted to.
It's Nolan's angle, one that hasn't really been done before. Iron Man and Iron Man 2 deal with Tony Stark's "reality" problems. Thor deals with his, Captain America with his. Nolan may have begun the quasi reality but even that is arguable as the first of his films ended and how he set up his climax. All the films are quasi reality from Marvel Studios with some like Thor surprisingly being able to do so.
That's the thing you do, it does this for you. Yet you are almost damning the others that aren't Nolan for doing that. While you like them you are keeping them as a lesser film compared to his because you didn't have that same visceral reaction. Something in these films sparks that for you but they certainly don't for me and for many others, that doesn't make the Nolan films better, it just makes them different, something that I think both the Nolan fans and even the Whedon fans to some extent are forgetting.
Here. It doesn't occur here that often. Doesn't mean it doesn't occur. I've had serious discussions about every Marvel film where they warrant it. I've read diehard Nolan fans completely destroy the Batman films while praise and laud his other films like Inception and Momento. The discussions continue far past SSF. If the people here want to discuss what looked cool and what was awesome on screen I'll join them because I don't need to make every discussion on the subject matter something that has me questioning life, sometimes it's fun to explore and enjoy the mindless aspect of it. There have been plenty of posts in the Batman threads about how awesome something was or even how when someone tries to "go deep" with the film they are lost.
In fact I can, simply because the Nolan films take the approach of Christopher Nolan, any other parallel to another director is like complaining about a war movie directed by Clint Eastwood and another directed by Quentin Tarentino. None of the Marvel films took the same approach and all of them had their own issues to deal with and to figure out if one wanted to.
It's Nolan's angle, one that hasn't really been done before. Iron Man and Iron Man 2 deal with Tony Stark's "reality" problems. Thor deals with his, Captain America with his. Nolan may have begun the quasi reality but even that is arguable as the first of his films ended and how he set up his climax. All the films are quasi reality from Marvel Studios with some like Thor surprisingly being able to do so.
That's the thing you do, it does this for you. Yet you are almost damning the others that aren't Nolan for doing that. While you like them you are keeping them as a lesser film compared to his because you didn't have that same visceral reaction. Something in these films sparks that for you but they certainly don't for me and for many others, that doesn't make the Nolan films better, it just makes them different, something that I think both the Nolan fans and even the Whedon fans to some extent are forgetting.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
There are themes and ideas in some of the Marvel films. And you don't need quasi-realism to make statements about real world issues. Just look at X-MEN. They're as sci-fi as these movies get and there's certainly nothing realistic about mutants who can teleport, control weather or re-generate. Yet those films have some of the most direct takes on inequality and prejudice in society. In fact, some of the best sci-fi films and books of all time are just veiled morality tales on our time now. Just look at the original Planet of The Apes.
Nolan's Batfilms aren't "realistic" because they need to be... They're simply that way because he's not quite comfortable making that one last leap into fantasy. And that's fine. But it doesn't make his film more important or more intellectual.
There are themes and ideas in some of the Marvel films. And you don't need quasi-realism to make statements about real world issues. Just look at X-MEN. They're as sci-fi as these movies get and there's certainly nothing realistic about mutants who can teleport, control weather or re-generate. Yet those films have some of the most direct takes on inequality and prejudice in society. In fact, some of the best sci-fi films and books of all time are just veiled morality tales on our time now. Just look at the original Planet of The Apes.
Nolan's Batfilms aren't "realistic" because they need to be... They're simply that way because he's not quite comfortable making that one last leap into fantasy. And that's fine. But it doesn't make his film more important or more intellectual.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I think you need to watch this, from the horse's mouth. Those debates and paradox's are all there, fully intentionally:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tol_mILw6w[/ame]
Why? Just because it's a movie about 'Batman' doesn't mean it can't have meaning and can't raise intellectually thought provoking questions.
I highly doubt Nolan would have ever wanted to Direct a Batman film if he didn't think there were interesting questions and themes to explore in the story and journey of Bruce Wayne.
Thank you - you 'get' my point.
And yeah, will be an awesome lineup when complete
I think you need to watch this, from the horse's mouth. Those debates and paradox's are all there, fully intentionally:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tol_mILw6w[/ame]
Why? Just because it's a movie about 'Batman' doesn't mean it can't have meaning and can't raise intellectually thought provoking questions.
I highly doubt Nolan would have ever wanted to Direct a Batman film if he didn't think there were interesting questions and themes to explore in the story and journey of Bruce Wayne.
Thank you - you 'get' my point.
And yeah, will be an awesome lineup when complete
thenammagazine
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
I just want to throw out there that if this was a vid of James Cameron saying these exact things about his own movies, you'd feel 100% the opposite.
I just want to throw out there that if this was a vid of James Cameron saying these exact things about his own movies, you'd feel 100% the opposite.
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Certainly. I'm not disputing that at all. It's why I said "much deeper". IMHO, Nolan toes that line but thankfully never quite topples over the cliff.
But these movies aren't exactly Mensa material, either. Nor should they be. They should never be taken THAT seriously.
Certainly. I'm not disputing that at all. It's why I said "much deeper". IMHO, Nolan toes that line but thankfully never quite topples over the cliff.
But these movies aren't exactly Mensa material, either. Nor should they be. They should never be taken THAT seriously.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Completely agree about the X Men films.
And yeah, films don't NEED to be realistic to explore real world issues, it's just the artistic decision taken by Nolan. My only point is, I believe his INTENTION is to make films that provoke thought as well as entertain. I don't believe that INTENTION is there with the Marvel flicks (the intention for their films to me is purely to entertain), and i'm not saying that definitively makes one better than the other. It's just that I PERSONALLY prefer the Nolan approach.
Completely agree about the X Men films.
And yeah, films don't NEED to be realistic to explore real world issues, it's just the artistic decision taken by Nolan. My only point is, I believe his INTENTION is to make films that provoke thought as well as entertain. I don't believe that INTENTION is there with the Marvel flicks (the intention for their films to me is purely to entertain), and i'm not saying that definitively makes one better than the other. It's just that I PERSONALLY prefer the Nolan approach.
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
Never claimed them to be MENSA material, and it may come off that way, but I don't think they are meant to be taken SO SERIOUSLY. I think they're meant to just leave the audience entertained and intellectually stimulated. Nothing more.
Never claimed them to be MENSA material, and it may come off that way, but I don't think they are meant to be taken SO SERIOUSLY. I think they're meant to just leave the audience entertained and intellectually stimulated. Nothing more.
King Darkness
Super Freak
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2006
- Messages
- 44,456
- Reaction score
- 209
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
He certainly has the biggest signature of all time
He certainly has the biggest signature of all time
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2009
- Messages
- 2,814
- Reaction score
- 155
intothevoid
Super Freak
intothevoid
Super Freak
Re: The Dark Knight Rises
This is exactly what i've been trying to say from the beginning:
And all of what I said I did preface by saying 'for me' Nolan's films do x, y and z... and Marvel's films do not.
I categorize the Marvel films into the bucket of - made purely for the 'fun' factor, ala, Independence Day which I gave as an example.
I categorize the Nolan films differently for reasons i've been over. If you force a comparison and ask me what's the best comic book character based film I've ever seen, my answer is simple: Batman Begins.
If you ask me what's the most 'fun' movie I have ever seen, I think Avengers would be pretty much up there.
This is exactly what i've been trying to say from the beginning:
And all of what I said I did preface by saying 'for me' Nolan's films do x, y and z... and Marvel's films do not.
I categorize the Marvel films into the bucket of - made purely for the 'fun' factor, ala, Independence Day which I gave as an example.
I categorize the Nolan films differently for reasons i've been over. If you force a comparison and ask me what's the best comic book character based film I've ever seen, my answer is simple: Batman Begins.
If you ask me what's the most 'fun' movie I have ever seen, I think Avengers would be pretty much up there.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
Latest posts
-
-
InArt: The Lord of the Rings - Aragorn 1:6- Latest: ObiGlennKenobi
-
-
Hot Toys: - MMS156 - Captain America The First Avenger Official Specs and Pics- Latest: Berry The Music Man
-
-
Present Toys - PT60 - Flight Officer Aliens Ripley
- Latest: Monkey-bite84
