The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***

[The Mike]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I don't mean to beat up on your Void, because it's definitely not just you or even you really, it's the mentality that the Batman films are worthy of preservation in the Smithsonian whereas the Marvel films are mindless dreck that people unplug their minds and smile at the pretty pictures.

I'm saying that isn't the case at all, that what sparks in the Nolan films, the deep thought provoking pieces whether they are in there by Nolan's conscious thought (which I still don't buy 100%) or they are something that the viewer sparks with after seeing the material, is still there within the Marvel films, always has been and always will be.

One could argue the Devil's Advocate that since they are there under the layer "fun" they are actually deeper than the Nolan films since his are surface but I won't open that can of worms or poke that bear because it'll be another 15 pages.

Back to the topic at hand I think if we give Nolan the credit that he is doing all of this intentionally, to make his films that mind enveloping than I have to go one step further and say from what I saw with TDKR so far, he might have overstepped into that mindset a bit too much. I see your points about TDK for example to some degree if I want my mind to go that route but will counter than it's a fun mix of comic book fantasy with the explosions and the basic persona of The Joker walking around without much attention paid to his look other than the first time and this one seems to be missing that key element.

It may be too realistic from what I've seen but we'll find out soon enough.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I don't mean to beat up on your Void, because it's definitely not just you or even you really, it's the mentality that the Batman films are worthy of preservation in the Smithsonian whereas the Marvel films are mindless dreck that people unplug their minds and smile at the pretty pictures.

I'm saying that isn't the case at all, that what sparks in the Nolan films, the deep thought provoking pieces whether they are in there by Nolan's conscious thought (which I still don't buy 100%) or they are something that the viewer sparks with after seeing the material, is still there within the Marvel films, always has been and always will be.

One could argue the Devil's Advocate that since they are there under the layer "fun" they are actually deeper than the Nolan films since his are surface but I won't open that can of worms or poke that bear because it'll be another 15 pages.

Back to the topic at hand I think if we give Nolan the credit that he is doing all of this intentionally, to make his films that mind enveloping than I have to go one step further and say from what I saw with TDKR so far, he might have overstepped into that mindset a bit too much. I see your points about TDK for example to some degree if I want my mind to go that route but will counter than it's a fun mix of comic book fantasy with the explosions and the basic persona of The Joker walking around without much attention paid to his look other than the first time and this one seems to be missing that key element.

It may be too realistic from what I've seen but we'll find out soon enough.

Yes, no hard feelings here

I can see your point about Marvel films having some of that 'under the surface', perhaps they do, personally, I don't see it but it's probably because of the mindset I go into those films with. The mindset those films' marketing engenders.

With respect to TDKR maybe taking things too far into the realm of moral questions and dilemmas, I don't know, we will have to wait and see.

 

[The Mike]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

You have to concede this though, we are having an in-depth conversation about moral questions/dilemmas and their presence or lack their of including whether or not they are surface or hidden about Marvel movies (and the one DC film) which was countered as never happening here

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

You have to concede this though, we are having an in-depth conversation about moral questions/dilemmas and their presence or lack their of including whether or not they are surface or hidden about Marvel movies (and the one DC film) which was countered as never happening here

I see what you did there

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

With respect to the thought provoking aspect:

Perhaps this has something to do with my own personal reality, but just some examples of where these films have been 'thought provoking' for me:

Batman Begins


1. Bruce Refuses to Kill
The fact that Bruce refuses to kill the guilty man on the LoS's orders, because he believes his compassion is what separates him from the criminals. Ra's and Decoy Ra's try to reason with him that 'criminals mock societies' laws and understanding' and that any due course criminals face is at the behest of corrupt bureaucrats, so therefore, the only way to serve justice is to take the law into your own hands.

My Thoughts:
Having grown up in a city chock full of corruption (Karachi, Pakistan), and where criminals roam free, knowing that even if they are caught, they can easily bribe judges/officials and get away with anything, the LoS line of thinking has a surface appeal to me. Yet I am drawn towards Bruce's idealism because despite how bad things are, seeing his approach makes me cling to the hope that if people start setting examples by doing 'the right thing', maybe it will latch on and things will begin to improve.

2. Gotham Must be Destroyed / LoS Ideology
LoS believes that when a city reaches 'the height of its decadence' it must be purged and allowed to re-establish itself from the ground up. Collateral damage is an acceptable cost.

My Thoughts:
Again, coming from a country where the Islamic Extremist idealogy has taken hold in a certain corner of society, sometimes you think maybe the best way to fix this problem is to just blow the whole place away, and start fresh. Here again though, I am drawn to the idealist approach, to fix the situation from within by offering people hope, this is going to be a key theme of 'Rises' as well, quite clearly.

3. Ambiguity of Batman's 'One Rule'
He doesn't believe in killing yet he let's Ra's die, with the justification that he doesn't have to save him.

My Thoughts:
A bitter pill to swallow having seen Bruce and Batman be so idealistic, yet letting Ra's die. Not sure how I really feel about it but I guess made me think about moral grey areas in general.

The Dark Knight


1. 'You thought we could be decent men, in an indecent time'

Harvey is convinced by the Joker, that 'the only morality in a cruel world is chance'. He sees no value in his former idealism, no hope in continuing to try and fight the good fight, because ultimately, in a messed up world, something is always going to come back and bite you in the ass. In his case, with Rachel's death.

My Thoughts:
Again, similar theme of idealism, and whether it is worth it. Makes you think whether you have to compromise on your values and just play by the rules that society has set. For example, again, where I come from, it is often impossible to get a business deal done without having to pay someone (usually a government official) a bribe. Therefore, most people succumb to this and justify themselves by claiming that the only way to survive in such a corrupt society is to be at least a certain level of corrupt oneself. If you want to fight the good fight, you have a much harder road to travel, and no certainty of success - so why do it?

2. 'Their morals, their code, it's a bad joke, dropped at the first sign of trouble'

Joker goes on.. 'they're only as good as the world allows them to be', 'when the chips are down, these civilized people, will eat each other'..
And this again rings very true for me. He also says: 'they need you right now, when they don't, they'll cast you out'.

My Thoughts:
Society has devolved into a despicable level of selfishness. People are only supported in their causes so long as the wider society can in some way benefit from what said person is trying to achieve. The moment it goes against their interests (whether or not the cause is 'right' or 'just'), they will caste the person out. Seen many examples of this

3. 'At what cost'

Batman indulges in the ultimate invasion of privacy by using the cellphone signals of all Gotham's citizen's to make a 'sonar map' of the entire city, to locate the joker's whereabouts.

My Thoughts:
This gets me thinking about the kind of information the likes of Google or Facebook have about individuals and in aggregate, about entire societies, and the potential misuse of this information. While Batman used the information for a good cause, to find Joker and apprehend him, in the wrong hands, it could have been used for all sorts of criminal/fraudulent activity. Many of us trust Facebook or Google with our information, but at what point should we stop doing so?

4. Why Doesn't Batman Kill Joker?


Again, comes back to his rule of not killing - but is it really worth letting this guy live? We don't see the full 'cycle' of this as we do in the comics, where Joker breaks out inevitably after being caught each time, and ends up killing more people. The endless cycle is just hinted at in the final confrontation 'we're destined to do this foreever' ...


I could honestly go on and on about these topics and many others that these films raise for me. I can already tell TDKR will raise issues of responsibilities of the rich to the poor, of dictatorship versus democracy, freedom versus oppression etc.

It's not that the films are complex to understand, it's just that for me, and for many others, they raise these kind of issues which leaves me not only entertained at the end, but intellectually stimulated as well. Like I said, i've likened most of these issues to my personal experiences, and that's the greatest thing about any sort of art, it's open to interpretation.

Watching Avengers didn't provoke any intellectual debate or stimulation for me whatsoever - that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a DIFFERENT type of film. I personally prefer the Nolan kind.

That...was....


beautiful.

I don't even care about the flack I will get for saying that.

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I have to say, that line about being destined to do this forever, doesn't seem half as good as it did now that we see Bruce the way he is in the new trailer. It seems like in fact, they haven't and may never meet again the way Nolan is framing it up. I hope I'm wrong and they end on a more positive note with Bruce still Batman or else alot of the weight of that kind of dialogue in TDK will be diminsihed.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I have to say, that line about being destined to do this forever, doesn't seem half as good as it did now that we see Bruce the way he is in the new trailer. It seems like in fact, they haven't and may never meet again the way Nolan is framing it up. I hope I'm wrong and they end on a more positive note with Bruce still Batman or else alot of the weight of that kind of dialogue in TDK will be diminsihed.

I agree, and I do think the Nolan's had to reconsider the direction of the 3rd film once Ledger died. Definitely think it was the right call not to re-cast the Joker though. No point

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Thats another thing thats bothering me, we heard we can't have Riddler he's too similar to Joker. But to me Bane looks pretty similar as well. He shows up, causes mass havok as a distraction, and then goes after Batman specifically when he's turned everyone against him. He wants chaos and the destruction of normality in Gotham and is willing to work with a criminal organisation to acheive it.

A part of me will not be able to help but think as I sit there watching the movie, how much of this was written for Joker and simply subsituted by Bane, as I know they had a pretty solid direction they were aiming for already. Was it originally the plan to have Joker break out and team up with the LOS 8 years later? That kind of thing will constantly be going through my mind.

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I see what you did there

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Thats another thing thats bothering me, we heard we can't have Riddler he's too similar to Joker. But to me Bane looks pretty similar as well. He shows up, causes mass havok as a distraction, and then goes after Batman specifically when he's turned everyone against him. He wants chaos and the destruction of normality in Gotham and is willing to work with a criminal organisation to acheive it.

A part of me will not be able to help but think as I sit there watching the movie, how much of this was written for Joker and simply subsituted by Bane, as I know they had a pretty solid direction they were aiming for already. Was it originally the plan to have Joker break out and team up with the LOS 8 years later? That kind of thing will constantly be going through my mind.

I don't think the LoS would ever consider teaming up with the Joker - he's far too unpredictable. The Joker simply wants chaos, and he wants to show the 'do gooders' that there's no point in their actions, because at the end of the day, people will act like animals if the incentives line up for them to act that way.

He has no interest in seeing Gotham destroyed or in killing Batman, just in proving everyone wrong.

Bane, while we do not know exactly what his motivation is, comes across as someone who just wants to destroy Bruce and Batman, and he doesn't just want to kill Batman, he wants him to suffer as much as possible by destroying Gotham completely, and letting Wayne watch helplessly as he does it, before killing him. His motivation for wanting to do this could possibly be something to do with Ra's i'm guessing, but we'll see.

There's quite a big difference there, IMO

 

[Walker]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I don't think the LoS would ever consider teaming up with the Joker - he's far too unpredictable. The Joker simply wants chaos, and he wants to show the 'do gooders' that there's no point in their actions, because at the end of the day, people will act like animals if the incentives line up for them to act that way.

He has no interest in seeing Gotham destroyed or in killing Batman, just in proving everyone wrong.

Bane, while we do not know exactly what his motivation is, comes across as someone who just wants to destroy Bruce and Batman, and he doesn't just want to kill Batman, he wants him to suffer as much as possible by destroying Gotham completely, and letting Wayne watch helplessly as he does it, before killing him. His motivation for wanting to do this could possibly be something to do with Ra's i'm guessing, but we'll see.

There's quite a big difference there, IMO

In the trailer when you see Bruce Wayne lying on the floor with Bane taunting him you immediately realize that he is a lot different from the Joker. " Your punishment must be more severe!"

Cool new Sig and Avatar Void!

 

[ZaCHw117]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I also see Bane as an LOS member. Set out to destroy Gotham and break it. Just like Ra's' ambitions in Batman Begins. He does this by breaking batman, gothams one true hope.

I'm definetley not getting a Joker vibe from him and his actions though.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah, 'The Fire Rises' seems to be a reference to the 'purging fire' Ra's talked about in Begins

And thanks Walker

 

[crows]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

the one thing I will always hate about Begins is how cartoonish the city looks, looks like a Videogame, and that hurts the continuity because in the other two movies is an actual city, but in Begins it looks fake, well not fake, but it looks fake compared to The Dark Knight,

also I hate how the plot of the movie is told to us like 56 times, I really HATE that, the plan to use the machine to evaporate the water, is told by almost everyone, I really hate it when the guys in the building at the end are tellling it, the old guy, I HATE that

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises



Yeah the dialogue in the 3rd act is overdone, but I love it all the same

Regarding the look of the city, I think on the one hand they clearly had a much lower budget for BB than the sequels, but on the other hand I think they focus on a different part of Gotham than TDK does. TDK doesn't show 'the Narrows' or Arkham Asylum at all, so that helps seperate them in my mind

 

[crows]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

yeah I totally get the budget
but the way they made it look even with the budget makes me feel like a video game, a Really good video game City, something about the lights and the skies, the brownish color everything has, I guess im talking about the big shots, the fog and the brownish tint, which Is Nice, I liked it when I first saw the movie.

but then seeing TDK then it felt weird, I know there is nothing they can do, and I dont mind it really, but it still there, in the back of my head lol.

and, I swear I wanted to put my hands on the mouth of the old guy saying the water pressure thing at the very when Batman fights Ra's ... that was going to blow, I always feel like screaming SHUT the __ UP!!!!
the plot of the water machine thing is repeated so much...

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

The brown 'sepia' tone is there to accentuate the feeling of a 'beginning' of something, like an old photograph

In TDK the hue is a dull blue which is the same as one of the big inspirations for TDK: 'Heat', it adds to the crime drama sort of feel they were going for

From the last trailer and the posters, in 'Rises' it seems the hue is going to be a washed out, monochromatic sort of colour, I think that will be to add to the feeling of gloom and hopelessness

 

[EVILFACE]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I hope LOS/Bane have a floating aircraft carrier, 2 camo tumblers isn't going to cut it anymore.

A flying aircraft carrier that can almost be taken down by a single arrow.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

yeah, that made little sense

 

[thenammagazine]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

A flying aircraft carrier that can almost be taken down by a single arrow.

Jets can and have crashed from a single seagull.