The Dark Knight Rises ***USE SPOILER TAGS***

[RyanSD]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Well, whatever happens, this'll be the last Nolan Bat-film. Love 'em or hate 'em, its all over after this.

I hope the next 'reboot' goes all out balls-to-the-wall comic-book Batman. If that's one thing I hope WB can gather from the success of Avengers, is that comic book films can be fun and stay true to the source material, and still be good. I want Robin. I want the near-perfect human Batman. I want the crazy meta-human rogues. I want Batman swinging through the city on a zip line, etc.

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah but IMO he would really have to be a genius beyond even what I consider him to be to make a movie to top BB and TDK, without being full invested in it.

It's got to be rather terrifying for Nolan tbh. The amount of fanboys dedicating every waking minute to him on Superhero hype, the In Nolan We Trust. People dressing like the Joker and murdering babies, commiting crimes. People tatooed a permanant image of Bane on them before a teaser trailer even hit. He was already wary about the 3rd film in the trilogy thing as I pointed out, the possibilities of fan reactions, backlash, etc, I couldn't blame him remotely if he did want out but now that he's all in, I really hope he delivers. Having said that, with expectations, and having to not just top the Joker, but a guy that is himself essentially also a martyr now in Heath I just don't know if you can do it. I was only expecting a movie on par with BB, not better then TDK and would have been ok with other sequels with other villains which is why I'm so jaded at his idea to end it now, seemingly early and why I'm now expecting more.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I was only expecting a movie on par with BB, not better then TDK and would have been ok with other sequels with other villains which is why I'm so jaded at his idea to end it now, seemingly early and why I'm now expecting more.

Yeah, I get your POV, I do.

However, one thing I notice with many people who are feeling 'underwhelmed' by how TDKR is shaping up, is that they generally find TDK to be the better film of the 2 before this. Perhaps this leads to the thought process that 'well there's no Joker/ he was supposed to be in this/ no way Bane can top Joker/ no way TDKR can top TDK'

I find BB to be the better film actually, mostly because I love how the story of Bruce is handled, and maybe that's why i'm not all that fussed that there's no Heath and there's likely not going to be that level of pure acting performance from anyone in this film, because what i'm most looking forward to is what happens to Bruce and to Batman.

 

[Sweet Rabbit]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I hope the next 'reboot' goes all out balls-to-the-wall comic-book Batman. If that's one thing I hope WB can gather from the success of Avengers, is that comic book films can be fun and stay true to the source material, and still be good. I want Robin. I want the near-perfect human Batman. I want the crazy meta-human rogues. I want Batman swinging through the city on a zip line, etc.

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Yeah, I get your POV, I do.

However, one thing I notice with many people who are feeling 'underwhelmed' by how TDKR is shaping up, is that they generally find TDK to be the better film of the 2 before this. Perhaps this leads to the thought process that 'well there's no Joker/ he was supposed to be in this/ no way Bane can top Joker/ no way TDKR can top TDK'

I find BB to be the better film actually, mostly because I love how the story of Bruce is handled, and maybe that's why i'm not all that fussed that there's no Heath and there's likely not going to be that level of pure acting performance from anyone in this film, because what i'm most looking forward to is what happens to Bruce and to Batman.

I like BB alot, they are incedibly close for me, BB an 8, TDK an 8.5, my beef isn't so much the lack of Joker, I do like the focus on Bruce, my problem is simply Bruce not being Batman for so long and Joker now being not only non-existant, but legitimately weakened in TDK. As I said for me, some of that interrogation room dialogue and the great line about doing it forever, seem totally mute instead of awesome foreshadowing. Imagine if we saw that Joker card at the end of BB, but then the villain in TDK was Killer Croc instead. It's just a bit of a waste of a brillaint set up.

 

[jye4ever]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

/\ Nolan called me, asked me to pass a message to you that he's safe and happy and for you to relax.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

As I said for me, some of that interrogation room dialogue and the great line about doing it forever, seem totally mute instead of awesome foreshadowing. Imagine if we saw that Joker card at the end of BB, but then the villain in TDK was Killer Croc instead. It's just a bit of a waste of a brillaint set up.

Well, we don't really know yet how the joker situation is handled in TDKR, so i'm holding my horses on that. If it does turn out that that was their only encounter, it would sadden me, but I hope if that sacrifice is made, it's to achieve a great ending to the story. We'll see.

/\ Nolan called me, asked me to pass a message to you that he's safe and happy and for you to relax.

You should have asked him what he thought about Avengers and Joss Whedon

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

/\ Nolan called me, asked me to pass a message to you that he's safe and happy and for you to relax.

Safe, no doubt, confident, given his own comments, I won't believe.

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

If you go back and read interviews for TDK, you can find him make very similar comments... and look what happened.

 

[Deckard]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Are you referring to TDK and him making comments that he didn't want to make a sequel to BB? Because that I do not recall.

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Wayne has friendships with other characters that provide that balance. Alfred, Gordon, Fox, and so on. Rachel was absolutely not necessary. They simply wanted to shoehorn yet another love interest into a Batman film.

IMHO, the only love interests that ever work for a Batman story are ones like Catwoman and Talia... because those characters actually serve other purposes beyond being just contrived love interests for Batman/Bruce Wayne.

I disagree with the idea that Rachel's inclusion as a civilian love interest (someone other than Selina or Talia) pulling him toward a "normal life" is against the Batman mythos. There are at least a few examples in the character's comic book history where that has happened and caused him to seriously reconsider his devotion to spending his life fighting crime: Julie Madison, Silver St. Cloud, Shondra Kinsolving, etc.

Chris Nolan didn't shoehorn this layer to the character, his aren't even the first Batman films to highlight the conflict that Bruce felt regarding "the mission" vs a "normal life". Remember Mask of the Phantasm? After he falls in love with Andrea Beaumont, he is at his parents' gravesite in the rain trying to explain why he wants to quit his mission:

"It doesn't mean I don't care anymore. I don't want to let you down, honest. It just doesn't hurt so bad anymore---you can understand that can't you? Look, I can give money to the city, they can hire more cops; let someone else take the risk. But it's different now-----PLEASE, I need it to be different now."

One final note about adhering to the "established" Batman mythos. That mythos was built over more than 70 years by plenty of creators: writers, artists, directors, each adding their own spin to the character. It is not any one intepretation (i.e. Batman is soley focused on his mission and has no interest in a personal life). There is that whole idea that "public persona" Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the real identity, but there is also a "real" Bruce Wayne layer in there, and Nolan wasn't the first one to talk about that guy.

 

[RyanSD]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I disagree with the idea that Rachel's inclusion as a civilian love interest (someone other than Selina or Talia) pulling him toward a "normal life" is against the Batman mythos. There are at least a few examples in the character's comic book history where that has happened and caused him to seriously reconsider his devotion to spending his life fighting crime: Julie Madison, Silver St. Cloud, Shondra Kinsolving, etc.

Chris Nolan didn't shoehorn this layer to the character, his aren't even the first Batman films to highlight the conflict that Bruce felt regarding "the mission" vs a "normal life". Remember Mask of the Phantasm? After he falls in love with Andrea Beaumont, he is at his parents' gravesite in the rain trying to explain why he wants to quit his mission:



One final note about adhering to the "established" Batman mythos. That mythos was built over more than 70 years by plenty of creators: writers, artists, directors, each adding their own spin to the character. It is not any one intepretation (i.e. Batman is soley focused on his mission and has no interest in a personal life). There is that whole idea that "public persona" Bruce Wayne is the mask and Batman is the real identity, but there is also a "real" Bruce Wayne layer in there, and Nolan wasn't the first one to talk about that guy.

But the thing is, with all the love interests in all of Batman mythos, he always chose to remain Batman. With Silver St. Cloud, he questioned it for 1 panel, and the next he 'had made his decision' and was out being Batman.

One part of Begins that I loved was the end when he's talking to Rachel in the ruins of the manor, and she said along the lines of "will a time come where YOU don't need Batman?" That to me, was the epitome of Batman wrapped up in one line of dialogue. I felt TDK kind of threw a lot of that out the window with the Dent/White Knight stuff. I further feel disenfranchised if he's been gone for 8 years.

But, I'm willing to give Nolan and Co. the benefit of the doubt, and hope they can bring out a movie as good as Begins was.

 

[crows]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I think an Origin story for Superhero movies are okay if they are quick, but I really truly Hate when the origin story takes the entire movie, or half of the movie, that's when it sucks

look at Burton's Batman or Daredevil, their story is told at the beginning, to the point, they tell you want you need to know, and is over and the movie keeps going (I know people Hate Daredevil but in this case it applies)

then you have movies like Fantastic Four, Ghost Rider, Punisher, where they drag their beginnings so much, sometimes the entire movie is the origin,
sometimes it works don't get me wrong, but most of the time it feels pointless, everyone knows the story, (everyone that matters anyways, fans,)
I hate that,

 

[RyanSD]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

An origin story is only as good or bad as the writers can make it. Begins spent over half the movie on the origin, but it worked. But a lot of them do feel dragged out, Green Lantern is a recent example. Just get to the point.

But if its a story that's been told over and over, it gets a bit redundant no matter how good it is. Its one reason I have no interest in the new Spidey movie, I just don't care to see a retread of the same story.

 

[DarkMagic]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

But the thing is, with all the love interests in all of Batman mythos, he always chose to remain Batman. With Silver St. Cloud, he questioned it for 1 panel, and the next he 'had made his decision' and was out being Batman.

One part of Begins that I loved was the end when he's talking to Rachel in the ruins of the manor, and she said along the lines of "will a time come where YOU don't need Batman?" That to me, was the epitome of Batman wrapped up in one line of dialogue. I felt TDK kind of threw a lot of that out the window with the Dent/White Knight stuff. I further feel disenfranchised if he's been gone for 8 years.

But, I'm willing to give Nolan and Co. the benefit of the doubt, and hope they can bring out a movie as good as Begins was.

TDK didn't throw that out the window...that line is actually from Rachel's letter in TDK!

My point is that he seriously wanted a "normal life" in previously in the Batman mythos before Nolan got his hands on the character. In the end, yes, he ends up sticking with his mission, but not always because it what he wants above all else---sometimes it is because he can't have the normal life/love option anymore and has no choice in the matter. He decided to completely quit his crimefighting goal in MoTP and propose to Andrea Beaumont...only when she left him (to protect her dad from the mob) did he go back to his initial plan and become Batman.

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Are you referring to TDK and him making comments that he didn't want to make a sequel to BB? Because that I do not recall.

Where has he said he didn't want to make a sequel for TDK?

I've only seen him say that he didn't want to do it unless he had the right story. Which is no different than what he felt about TDK.

 

[intothevoid]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Where has he said he didn't want to make a sequel for TDK?

I've only seen him say that he didn't want to do it unless he had the right story. Which is no different than what he felt about TDK.

:exactly

 

[RyanSD]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

TDK didn't throw that out the window...that line is actually from Rachel's letter in TDK!

My point is that he seriously wanted a "normal life" in previously in the Batman mythos before Nolan got his hands on the character. In the end, yes, he ends up sticking with his mission, but not always because it what he wants above all else---sometimes it is because he can't have the normal life/love option anymore and has no choice in the matter. He decided to completely quit his crimefighting goal in MoTP and propose to Andrea Beaumont...only when she left him (to protect her dad from the mob) did he go back to his initial plan and become Batman.

My bad, you're absolutely right. I really need to go back and watch the first 2 before TDKR comes out. Still, it goes back to my point that if he needed to be Batman (and it was even mentioned in TDK), then why did he stop for 8 years?

MoTP is great in the handling of his relationship with Andrea, because I always felt that it showed how even when he tried to not be Batman, he ends up becoming a better Batman for it. When he first puts on that costume, he just seems angry and scary. Love Alfred's reaction in that scene.

 

[Sachiel]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

why did he stop for 8 years?

We don't really know for certain how many years Batman has been "gone", just that the story picks up 8 years after TDK.

The info here, https://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4431755&postcount=15086, implies that Bruce still needs Batman even if he hasn't been (completely) active those 8 years.

 

[Mamba]

Re: The Dark Knight Rises

I wonder if this movie can top Avengers' $200.3 M record.

I am so ready for this movie. Without a doubt this will have a better story than Avengers but the question is will this be a better movie? I guess we'll find out soon