The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies

[The Josh]

Oh I'm sure we will. So it's hard for me to be too upset at the shortcomings of BOTFA (very little Beorn, no satisfying end for Alfrid and no Erebor/Bard/Thorin's tomb epilogue) when I'd say it's pretty much a sure thing that all of the above will get their due in the EE.

Exactly!

 

[jye4ever]

As much as I love reading DiFabio's teachings on everything old vs new, i'm quite enjoying Khev's enthusiasm on this trilogy, I think I'll be riding his coat tails on this one.

I picture me and Khev enjoying a brew watching this trilogy with DiFabio running in stealing the DVD player and exiting out the back door, Khev and I will look at each other and be like "Dat Muther......"

 

[DiFabio]

Oh I'm sure we will. So it's hard for me to be too upset at the shortcomings of BOTFA (very little Beorn, no satisfying end for Alfrid and no Erebor/Bard/Thorin's tomb epilogue) when I'd say it's pretty much a sure thing that all of the above will get their due in the EE.

That's one thing that bugs me about the Hobbit extended versions and I'm sure you'll agree with me.

Back in 2002, 2003, and 2004, the LOTR extended editions were nice compliments to the already great theatrical versions. Most of what was cut made sense and the theatricals were just as fulfilling without the extended versions. I sensed a sincerity with the filmmakers that the things put back in were put back in for fun.

With the Hobbit, it feels like necessary elements, like the things we are now discussing (Bard, the Dwarves, loose ends etc.) are critical. I don't want to say that Jackson and Co. were purposely leaving things out throughout their three movies for the Extened Edition, but I was really surprised by the lack of feels I got at the end of this last one. I thought they got Thorin and Bilbo's end right, but not much else. While ROTK seemed to drag on and on, it felt like it ended on the right note. The Hobbit just left me thinking, "well, alrighty then". That's a pretty huge turn for someone that was excited and nostalgic back in 2011/2012 with Peter Jackson's production vlogs.

The thing I'm looking forward to the most now is a potential fan edit. I want to see what someone can do with all three extended hobbit movies and see what it would be like in a straightforward, two film journey, as it was originally intended.

 

[Khev]

How is it facepalm worthy? The Hobbit prequels have been compared to the Star Wars prequels pretty frequently over the years,

It's a facepalm worthy comparison because even though people have been quick to equate The Hobbit films with the PT it's been a pretty vacuous comparison since day one. You or anyone can SAY that The Hobbit is like SW but the fact of the matter is that no one is really behaving like they are. Anakin wishing that he could wish away his wishes is LEGEND in the annals of awful writing. Same with "This is podracing, are you an angel, I hate sand, I absolutely believe that only a Sith believes in absolutes, oomba she did of a broken heart, nooooooo," etc. No one actually quotes anything from The Hobbit in such a manner. No one actually says that the story presented in the Hobbit actually makes the whole saga worse, or that the Hobbit films introduce elements that change the OT for the worse. People just blanketly say "Its worse than the LOTR, the SW PT was also worse than the OT, so The Hobbit = SW PT." By that logic then The Two Towers is as bad as The Phantom Menace because it was "worse" than the film that came before it.

 

[Khev]

As much as I love reading DiFabio's teachings on everything old vs new, i'm quite enjoying Khev's enthusiasm on this trilogy, I think I'll be riding his coat tails on this one.

Follow me jye, one last time!

 

[Khev]

That's one thing that bugs me about the Hobbit extended versions and I'm sure you'll agree with me.

Back in 2002, 2003, and 2004, the LOTR extended editions were nice compliments to the already great theatrical versions. Most of what was cut made sense and the theatricals were just as fulfilling without the extended versions. I sensed a sincerity with the filmmakers that the things put back in were put back in for fun.

With the Hobbit, it feels like necessary elements, like the things we are now discussing (Bard, the Dwarves, loose ends etc.) are critical.

I do agree that BOTFA should have had a little more resolution than it did. You open the whole trilogy with this grand prologue about Erebor at the height of it's civilization and the mythical Arkenstone and then just have Bilbo walk away from it without any hint as to what becomes of the stone and city? And no concrete indication of what becomes of the dislocated people of Lake-town, when again, the whole trilogy began with the tale of a people scattered by a dragon's attack. Seems like it would have been pretty easy to show a montage of

Spoiler

Dain sitting on the throne of Thror, Thorin being buried with the Arkenstone and Orcrist, and Bard being crowned king of Dale

while old Bilbo narrates. Then have him put his pen down, take out his ring, and hear Gandalf's familiar knock at the door.

I do think that ROTK'S TE had a pretty unforgivable omission with not showing Saruman's full demise though.

 

[Adolfo]

bottom line here!...YOU WILL NEVER SEE COSTUMES AND MAKEUP LIKE THE OLD DAYS!...IT'S OVER! GONE! HISTORY! FIN! GET OVER IT! for me it felt as though PJ rushed the film...tried to put a 4 hr story into 2 1/2 hrs...I felt the least emotion in BOTFA than any other Middle Earth PJ film and that I didnt excpect...This was almost as great as TDKR I enjoyed BOTFA but I do have a few "I wish they did this instead of that" moments

 

[DiFabio]

It's a facepalm worthy comparison because even though people have been quick to equate The Hobbit films with the PT it's been a pretty vacuous comparison since day one. *You or anyone can SAY that The Hobbit is like SW but the fact of the matter is that no one is really behaving like they are. *Anakin wishing that he could wish away his wishes is LEGEND in the annals of awful writing. *Same with "This is podracing, are you an angel, I hate sand, I absolutely believe that only a Sith believes in absolutes, oomba she did of a broken heart, nooooooo," etc. *No one actually quotes anything from The Hobbit in such a manner. *No one actually says that the story presented in the Hobbit actually makes the whole saga worse, or that the Hobbit films introduce elements that change the OT for the worse. *People just blanketly say "Its worse than the LOTR, the SW PT was also worse than the OT, so The Hobbit = SW PT." *By that logic then The Two Towers is as bad as The Phantom Menace because it was "worse" than the film that came before it.

That's badly written dialogue, and I agree, Hobbit really has nothing that stands out as cringe worthy as "I wish I could just wish my feelings away". If we're talking about the way the screenplays were written though . . .

I could make the Star Wars prequel trilogy sound appealing with a well written synopsis of what happens. You could too. Hell, Jye can make the kiwi inhabited Clone Wars seem cooler than how I imagined it as a kid when Ben Kenobi told Luke about his father and those same wars.

Actually, now that I think about it, I think I might actually prefer Ian Holm reminiscing about the powers of Mirkwood, lake town and the Lonely Mountain to Frodo and Gandalf is actually better and more potent than actually seeing the adventure in play out in these Hobbit movies. Especially when Frodo comes to the sad realization that he's nothing like Bilbo and his journey turned out quite different.

 

[jye4ever]

BOTFA needs a heavy duty EE ending.

 

[Adolfo]

BOTFA needs a heavy duty EE ending.

Yeah like a Balrog joining the fight

 

[Khev]

Actually, now that I think about it, I think I might actually prefer Ian Holm reminiscing about the powers of Mirkwood, lake town and the Lonely Mountain to Frodo and Gandalf is actually better and more potent than actually seeing the adventure in the Hobbit movies. Especially when Frodo comes to the sad realization that he's nothing like Bilbo and his journey turned out quite different.

I do have to wonder if the Hobbit films have now made Gandalf into a bit of a Ben Kenobi-esque liar when you consider that in FOTR he told Frodo that he was "barely involved" in Bilbo's adventure with the dragon.

But other than that I think the two trilogies will flow fantastically together and it will be interesting to see when all is said and done and BOTFA is on blu-ray which "order" is best to watch them in. When AUJ came out in 2012 I watched the full LOTR trilogy right after it over the course of several nights and found Bilbo's line where he says he's ready for one last adventure to be newly poignant. And I really liked having Gollum's full backstory. It was cool seeing him still complaining about the nasty thieving Hobbitses as he sneaks up on the sleeping Frodo and Sam knowing exactly what drove him to that point (and as you agreed, executed so well in the AUJ Riddles scene.)

I think Aragorn will come across as an even bigger badass now when we watch him take on the Ringwraiths with mere torches after it took the combined might of Elrond and Saruman to defeat them the first time.

 

[Khev]

Yeah like a Balrog joining the fight

And Legolas riding one of those worm things.

 

[The Josh]

You gotta watch The Hobbit films then The Lord of the Rings.

 

[Xenoburger_]

bottom line here!...YOU WILL NEVER SEE COSTUMES AND MAKEUP LIKE THE OLD DAYS!...IT'S OVER! GONE! HISTORY! FIN! GET OVER IT!

Now that I think about it, Azog is also a tall, bald, white humanoid, why did he need to be CGI when the engineer didn't?

Because his "proportions" would look too human? Really? Bull ****

Look at all the extra padding and stuff they added to this costume:

Anyone who doesn't think Azog could have been pulled off without CGI is greatly underestimating the potential of practical effects.

But no, we get stuck with a life-less video game character.

 

[Khev]

You gotta watch The Hobbit films then The Lord of the Rings.

I would think so. There are a couple of moments like old Bilbo chatting with Frodo and Legolas running out of arrows that are obviously designed to be enjoyed with previous knowledge of these characters from LOTR but otherwise PJ really did a good job of crafting the Hobbit trilogy so that it leads directly into LOTR. He deliberately didn't spoil the twists of LOTR and constructed the battles so that they'll gradually escalate from one trilogy to the next.

 

[Khev]

Anyone who doesn't think Azog could have been pulled off without CGI is greatly underestimating the potential of practical effects.

Of course he could have been pulled off without CGI. In fact they originally filmed him that way. This is what they couldn't have achieved with a mask, not one that moved and was as expressive as the mo-capped actor's face:

The proportions are just too far off to put a person's face under there. The Engineer clearly has human features.

If they made Azog with makeup or a mask then they'd have to change his design and bring his eyes in much closer together so that he'd look more like Yazneg or Lurtz (which is what they were not going for.)

That's your practical Azog right there, but he was so far off from what they were going for they had no trouble renaming him and showing him interacting with the "new" Azog. That's how differently they looked from one another.

 

[The Josh]

I would think so. There are a couple of moments like old Bilbo chatting with Frodo and Legolas running out of arrows that are obviously designed to be enjoyed with previous knowledge of these characters from LOTR but otherwise PJ really did a good job of crafting the Hobbit trilogy so that it leads directly into LOTR. He deliberately didn't spoil the twists of LOTR and constructed the battles so that they'll gradually escalate from one trilogy to the next.

I do think Jackson did a great job of making sure things for without ruining events or people to come in LOTR. I can't wait to see all six films together in a showing at my house next winter.

 

[Khev]

Well Josh I think with the Hobbit trilogy you and I are in a rare place of agreement pretty much across the board. So far I've preferred both EE's and think that the BOTFA EE is pretty much a lock to be superior than the TE as well.

 

[DiFabio]

But other than that I think the two trilogies will flow fantastically together and it will be interesting to see when all is said and done and BOTFA is on blu-ray which "order" is best to watch them in. When AUJ came out in 2012 I watched the full LOTR trilogy right after it over the course of several nights and found Bilbo's line where he says he's ready for one last adventure to be newly poignant. And I really liked having Gollum's full backstory. It was cool seeing him still complaining about the nasty thieving Hobbitses as he sneaks up on the sleeping Frodo and Sam knowing exactly what drove him to that point (and as you agreed, executed so well in the AUJ Riddles scene.)

I think Aragorn will come across as an even bigger badass now when we watch him take on the Ringwraiths with mere torches after it took the combined might of Elrond and Saruman to defeat them the first time.

Person seeing LOTR for the first time after seeing the Hobbit movies.

- Hey, what happened to all these orcs? They look so different, so much better
- Wait, I thought Bilbo found the ring after falling in the cave with a Goblin, not fishing around aimlessly in the dark on the cave floor like the book!
- why does this Frodo guy look so much younger?
- hey wait a second, I thought Bilbo knew Frodo left Bag Rnd to go wait for Gandalf?
- Bilbo hasn't aged a day? Alright, but why does he now look and sound like Ian Holm!?! And why does "Old Bilbo" look younger and sound different than in the Hobbit? This happened mere hours apart?
- Wow, without that high contrast color timing filter, this Middle Earth world seems like a real place! So much more magnificent and real!
- So Gandalf knew that Sauron was back, that Bilbo had a magic ring, was lying to the company and not as stouthearted as he was before the Misty Mountains and it took Gandalf 61 years to realize that the Ring was evil AND he travelled all the way to Mina's Tirtih to find Isildur's account when he could have just went to his good friend Elrond who was only a couple of miles away? Love of the half kings leaf indeed. What an idiot.
- Where is Radagast?
- If the elves already know about the Last Alliance and of the descendants of Isildur, why didn't Thanduril just tell Legolas to look for Aragorn? Strider is only known to the men of Bree who gave him that name?
- wait, would a 26 year old Aragorn even have that name yet? Wouldn't he be chilling with Arwen and Co. at Rivendell (cue deleted flashback scene where a beardless, 30s Aragorn fell in love with Arwen)
- who is Arwen? She's Elrond's daughter? Wait, why wasn't she at Rivendell in the Hobbit? Wait, Elrond had a daughter!?! *finds out Tauriel was just a "made up" character in Hobbit, wonders why Arwen wasn't even shown
- Why do these Moria Goblins look so real? Why do they have clothes? Hey, their large eye and green skin actually make sense
- If Sauron just recently regained his power and is looking to secretly rebuild himself, why did he spoil his existence 60 years ago again?
- Wait, if the Uruk Hai are a new breed of larger, superior orc with broad, straight legs, what was up with that Azog and Bolg guy? They were even bigger. What gives?
- What happened to Tauriel, why isn't she at the council?
- Legolas sure looks a lot younger and visually different than he did in the Hobbit. In fact he seems to act less stoic too.
- So if Galadriel and Elrond had the gift of foresight AND were best buds with Saruman, how did they not see Saruman's treachery coming? He clearly bailed on you when he said "I'll take care of this" you idiots
- Legolas and Gandalf, you two go way back and experienced a lot of **** with those dwarves. Why aren't you two reminiscing and talking to Frodo about the Battle of 5 armies. How come you guys aren't even talking?

 

[Khev]

Person seeing LOTR for the first time after seeing the Hobbit movies.

- Hey, what happened to all these orcs? They look so different, so much better

The FOTR prologue opens with 10,000 digital orcs.

- Bilbo hasn't aged a day? Alright, but why does he now look and sound like Ian Holm!?!

"Oh probably because he was already depicted as Ian Holm for a few scenes in the last three movies I just watched..."

- So Gandalf knew that Sauron was back, that Bilbo had a magic ring, was lying to the company and not as stouthearted as he was before the Misty Mountains and it took Gandalf 61 years to realize that the Ring was evil?

Gandalf guessed that Bilbo had a magic ring in the book too. But he didn't know that Sauron was "back," he had been banished by Galadriel and taken care of by Saruman.

- Where is Radagast?

Probably in Mirkwood with his homey Thranduil like he always was. It's not like he left his forest to assist in the battle at Erebor.

- wait, would a 26 year old Aragorn even have that name yet? Wouldn't he be chilling with Arwen and Co. at Rivendell (cue deleted flashback scene where a beardless Aragorn fell in love with Arwen)
- who is Arwen? She's Elrond's daughter? Wait, why wasn't she at Rivendell in the Hobbit? Wait, Elrond had a daughter!?!

You answered your own question. She was probably off gallivanting with a young Aragorn. It's not like she hung around Council Meetings in FOTR. If Aragorn wasn't involved, she wasn't around, period. She helped Frodo because of Aragorn, She talked to her dad because of Aragorn.

- Wait, if the Uruk Hai are a new breed of larger, superior orc with broad, straight legs, what was up with that Azog and Bolg guy? They were even bigger. What gives?

"I guess Azog and Bolg must have been unique legendary orcs, oh wait they were...."

- What happened to Tauriel, why isn't she at the council?

Oh come on.

- Legolas sure looks a lot younger and visually different than he did in the Hobbit.

Okay there you go. I'll give you that one.