The Mandalorian (Star Wars Live Action Series)

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:lol :lol

"We didn't come here to free slaves."

"I think you have."

"You're literally sitting right next to my personal slave."

"Oh."

:rotfl ...to be fair, I do like what he said about Star Wars needing to be *hopeful* at its core. I love Rogue One but it veered too far into darkness to be on-brand. Love it but can't quite put it on the same shelf.

I think one of the places Filoni and I part ways, is that I don't think it's possible to look at Star Wars too closely as this cohesive, integrated, well-planned thing with an arc. To me it's an astonishing piece of improv with all the ups and downs that entails.

For a 10-year old kid it's all more than enough. For an adult it shouldn't be examined too closely because you see where the stitches are barely holding it together.

Where we agree is that kids should have hopeful stories.
 
Wow, Tanya Roberts? Talk about B-List sex symbols. :lol I'm definitely showing my age, but my first were discovered via WGN Chicago's late night movies @1970 or so. The most memorable were Ann-Margaret wearing just a slip and writhing around on a bed in The Cincinnati Kid, Raquel Welch in a string bikini in Fathom, and that wholesome young lady washing her car in Cool Hand Luke. :lol

Don't forget Tonya was a Charlie's Angel :)

Cool Hand Luke chick... Nice!!!

Raquel Welch and Ann Margaret... I knew them From One Million BC and Viva Las Vegas :)



I enjoyed Rebels all the way through. There are a few filler episodes but at 4 seasons it is really good. My favorite season is 2 but I enjoy the series. All the characters are great to me. Chopper and Zeb are my favorites.

I am three episodes into Rebels and I am enjoying it very much.

Think about that, though. Any rebellion they join is in even greater danger because the Jedi are being hunted as criminals. Imperials and informants are all on the lookout for them as traitors and conspirators. The Emperor is fully in charge after ROTS. The entire landscape has changed after the final scene of that movie.

I guess so.. But I don't think the rebellion is in anymore danger then they are after word gets out about Luke Skywalker. He was able to lay low (Kind of)

Leia, Captain Antilles, and the Rebel crew on the
Tantive IV
had been able to work with relative diplomatic immunity before ANH, but if Yoda or Obi-Wan was onboard they'd be harboring a fugitive of justice. They would've been targeted long before having the plans to the Death Star. It can argued that those two Jedi could endanger any rebel mission just by being a part of it.

Nobody knew that Leia was part of the Rebel Alliance.. That was a death sentence on its own. Who cares if a couple of old Jedi were part of the team. The Empire had enough problem finding their hidden Rebel base. Obi Wan went on enough Sneaky missions in the PT. Who says he has to wear a robe and introduce himself as Obi Wan Kenobi :)

The Rebel Alliance was already targeted.. "You prefer another target.. A military Target"

I get what you are saying but being part of the Rebellion put a big target on your back to begin with.. Having some Jedi on your team makes you more dangerous and evens the odds.



It's not about Luke being more qualified, it's about not having any other choice since the Jedi were being hunted as enemies of the Empire. It's not like Yoda could just waltz into Palpatine's office to duel him again. He was able to do it in ROTS because the circumstances were different; that was before the Jedi were publicly declared as enemies of the state, and before the Emperor took full control.

Again Rebels were enemies of the state also..

I don't know about EU but I figure that the Rebels are better off with Yoda and Ben Kenobi then Without..
Yoda and Kenobi were essentially fugitives of justice according to the highest lawful authority. Hiding wasn't a choice, it was a necessity. Luke and Leia were the fallback plan. It's not like Yoda knew they were going to be the absolute answer and no doubt about it. But it was the only hope in the absence of not being able to recruit any more younglings. Luke and/or Leia were the last ones they could train without the Emperor or Vader knowing.

I have no issues with hiding.. But hiding forever?? Until R2 showed up that seemed to be the plan :)

Again this is more to do with Lucas coming up with new rules in the PT in how to become a Jedi and the amount of training it takes... If Ben and Yoda waited any longer they both could have been dead from Old age. Ben was already to old for such a thing :)



I don't get it. I'm assuming that they left Luke with Owen and Beru to be raised out of danger while the Jedi were still being hunted. Kenobi wasn't an option; if Jedi hunters track down Kenobi, they'll find baby/kid Luke. Maybe that was just too risky of a chance to take. Even in the animated shows, Maul finds Kenobi. Others could have too. But no one is going to be thinking anything suspicious about some kid raised on a farm by two regular (non-Jedi) people.

That's a good explanation. Except his name was SKYWALKER!!!! I am just kidding.. Im good with why Ben did not raise him.

If Owen refused to allow Luke to be trained once he safely reached a certain age, what was Kenobi supposed to do? Steal him away from the the two guardians who were doing all the work to raise him and care for him?

Yeah.. I don't know what the plan was.. He probably should have had a better one. :lol

Maybe made a deal with Owen or something. :lol



Can you be specific as to what you wanted Yoda to do? No Jedi was going to be able to do anything alone. There needed to be a Rebellion first, and they needed to wait for Luke to be trained in order to be part of that Rebellion.

Join the Rebellion... Help lead the Rebellion... That's all.. Yoda didn't even seem keen on training Luke. He was happy with letting Obi wan do that until he got killed.


Maybe Yoda couldn't be part of it. Yoda on any Rebel/Alliance mission might instantly put every good guy in that much more danger. His skill was as a Jedi and teacher of the Force. He wasn't going to do anything by himself with a lightsaber and no Rebellion to back him up. So it was a catch-22. The only thing to do was bank on "A New Hope." ;)

I think we both agree that Obi Wan and Yoda couldn't do anything by themselves.. But when the Rebellion started to be a thing then that is when it may have been the time to do something...

Maybe I just don't know the official Rebellion timeline...

Ahsoka when and fought Vader didn't she?? I didn't see that episode in Rebels... She was in hiding.. But she knew when it was time to act.. Again I didn't see that episode..



The pushback is the fun part. Theories and explanations aren't worth **** if you can't back them up. That's why I'm still laughing at "Qui-Gon the savior" theories being so popular right now. In the first scene of TPM, when the two Jedi are about to be ambushed, Obi-Wan says "I have a bad feeling about this." Qui-Gon responds with, "I don't sense anything." :lol

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

I still say things would have been different with Mace.. Like I said.. I don't see him leaving Anakin's mom on the planet after the nightmares started or the constant put downs.

Keep pushing back whenever you want; I dig the challenge. :duff

Yep Stuff like this is fun.. :duff

My issue is that again it was Lucas doing his own thing and not really connecting the dots to the OT. When Yoda was just a teacher and Obi Wan was just watching over Luke until he couldn't anymore.. All was OK.

Having Yoda be happy in exile and not be a part of what was going down.. No matter his age.. He could have been a help to the Rebellion.. Obi Wan apparently had no plan other then to drop the kid off and stay hiding... After Owen told him no dice with regards to Luke Obi Wan should have joined up with the rebellion also.. Both Ben and Yoda could have been high ranking generals helping come up with plans to stop the Empire and maybe participate in a mission or two..

But I am fine with all your answers... They are better then Ben and Yoda were hiding with a big secret and a bad plan :lol
 
:rotfl ...to be fair, I do like what he said about Star Wars needing to be *hopeful* at its core. I love Rogue One but it veered too far into darkness to be on-brand. Love it but can't quite put it on the same shelf.

I think one of the places Filoni and I part ways, is that I don't think it's possible to look at Star Wars too closely as this cohesive, integrated, well-planned thing with an arc. To me it's an astonishing piece of improv with all the ups and downs that entails.

For a 10-year old kid it's all more than enough. For an adult it shouldn't be examined too closely because you see where the stitches are barely holding it together.

Where we agree is that kids should have hopeful stories.

BAM!!!! Perfectly put!!!!
 
Yoda hid while millions were being slaughtered but because it wasn?t jedi being slaughtered anymore Yoda just decided it was ok to play absentee protector.

Maybe he was protecting baby yoda on dagobah lol


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Finally watching the Disney Gallery thing now. LOL...Filoni's full of crap. Qui-Gon "hasn't given up on the fact that Jedi are actually supposed to care -"

Anakin: "Have you come to free the slaves-"
Qui-Gon: "NO!"

:rotfl

I lose more respect for Filoni every time he opens his mouth.

After watching Clone Wars and then Rebels, I don't - he and whoever he's collaborating with can write and tell a story d*mn - something:clap that too often seems to be falling by the wayside in Hollywood *Captain Marvel*

Tho flat-out didn't believe him about Qui-Gon; or at least what he said never came across to me that way. Srsly he wasn't around Anakin long enough to have that kind of bond. IMO Qui-Gon DOES passionately believe that Anakin will balance the Force, but that's not the same thing as Mando's unexpected fatherhood.

*Shrug* To me seems like Lucas is a true father figure/outright god in Filoni's eyes. So, u have a sensitive artist type (I guess) who lives and breathes Star Wars collaborating with big daddy Favreau, who seems more grounded. Seems like a great, organic collaboration which (most recently) reminds me of Neil Gaiman talking about his relationship with Sir Terry Pratchett. The calls back and forth in the middle of dinner, and so on.

So if Filoni wants to project stuff in hindsight - or maybe it's true but didn't come off that way in the PT - like, whatever:drink. So far, it's the audience that has benefited from all the Star Wars LUV:cool: re Mando. As opposed to the sterile business-by-corporate-committee approach which has failed so many potential blockbusters.:(
 
After watching Clone Wars and then Rebels, I don't - he and whoever he's collaborating with can write and tell a story d*mn - something:clap that too often seems to be falling by the wayside in Hollywood *Captain Marvel*

Tho flat-out didn't believe him about Qui-Gon; or at least what he said never came across to me that way. Srsly he wasn't around Anakin long enough to have that kind of bond. IMO Qui-Gon DOES passionately believe that Anakin will balance the Force, but that's not the same thing as Mando's unexpected fatherhood.

*Shrug* To me seems like Lucas is a true father figure/outright god in Filoni's eyes. So, u have a sensitive artist type (I guess) who lives and breathes Star Wars collaborating with big daddy Favreau, who seems more grounded. Seems like a great, organic collaboration which (most recently) reminds me of Neil Gaiman talking about his relationship with Sir Terry Pratchett. The calls back and forth in the middle of dinner, and so on.

So if Filoni wants to project stuff in hindsight - or maybe it's true but didn't come off that way in the PT - like, whatever:drink. So far, it's the audience that has benefited from all the Star Wars LUV:cool: re Mando. As opposed to the sterile business-by-corporate-committee approach which has failed so many potential blockbusters.:(

Post End Game, Post Pandemic, Post D+ MCU delays = Nothing BUT Star Wars!

SW hype, social media activity trends, toy sales, TCW being watched more than Stranger Things just feels great!

Shame Mando 2 is not a July release strike while the iron is hot!

DC is freaking DOA lol

Joker made HUGE noise BUT now is silent and is seems that TDK Joker stayed on the radar a heck of alot longer, no.

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BAM!!!! Perfectly put!!!!

:duff

After watching Clone Wars and then Rebels, I don't - he and whoever he's collaborating with can write and tell a story d*mn - something:clap that too often seems to be falling by the wayside in Hollywood *Captain Marvel*

I agree with that but only to an extent. I've always maintained that some of Filoni's choices are highly questionable and veer into fantasy for very, very young children, so he loses a lot of crossover appeal. I didn't know about stuff he's worked on prior to this, but knowing his creative background now it makes more sense.

I admire his commitment to storytelling and love of Star Wars, but I think he's very hit or miss and made some bad calls -- none of which is unusual for Star Wars, not since the beginning.


[...]Tho flat-out didn't believe him about Qui-Gon; or at least what he said never came across to me that way. Srsly he wasn't around Anakin long enough to have that kind of bond. IMO Qui-Gon DOES passionately believe that Anakin will balance the Force, but that's not the same thing as Mando's unexpected fatherhood.

Yeah, and it's that kind of thing that makes me want to smack a nerd. :lol


*Shrug* To me seems like Lucas is a true father figure/outright god in Filoni's eyes. So, u have a sensitive artist type (I guess) who lives and breathes Star Wars collaborating with big daddy Favreau, who seems more grounded. Seems like a great, organic collaboration which (most recently) reminds me of Neil Gaiman talking about his relationship with Sir Terry Pratchett. The calls back and forth in the middle of dinner, and so on.

It's a good team-up and I think Favreau dials down the 'deep nerd' and ramps up the 'cool crossover' aspects of Star Wars, which is sorely needed. I think Filoni needs Favreau *a lot* more than the other way around, but it seems to work most of the time.


So if Filoni wants to project stuff in hindsight - or maybe it's true but didn't come off that way in the PT - like, whatever:drink. So far, it's the audience that has benefited from all the Star Wars LUV:cool: re Mando. As opposed to the sterile business-by-corporate-committee approach which has failed so many potential blockbusters.:(

This is true. Even The Mandalorian has its low points, but I can forgive those easily because it's very good overall and a breath of fresh air.

I loved most of the art direction in Rebels, but I was always aware it was aimed right at kids most of the time, that is to say even more so than other Star Wars media.

The Clone Wars is confusing. It has genuinely dark, violent moments, as well as cartoon fare for little kids that I can't sit through, and plenty of hack writing. But every now and then it hits hard. I just watched the final season and it was a microcosm of the whole series for me: as the season began I questioned my life choices, but the way it closed lent gravitas to the PT (which I still can't sit through, but the story behind it has become ingrained in my head by this point) and had exceptional production values and scripting for this series. They ended with a bang.
 
Welcome to Sideshow Freaks 2020, where lifelong OT Star Wars fans are favorably comparing TROS with ROTJ:slap
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That nightmarish alternate 1985 in BTTF II is what I've often compared the ST to. Like, damn, everything turned to ***t for our heroes, this is horrible. Time travel caused this and time travel must fix it.
 
That nightmarish alternate 1985 in BTTF II is what I've often compared the ST to. Like, damn, everything turned to ***t for our heroes, this is horrible. Time travel caused this and time travel must fix it.

Yes sir. Maybe Doc and Marty can do something to fix this. Perhaps steer a young Kathleen Kennedy towards a career better suited to her talents like performing vasectomies or cleaning the toilets at Lucasfilm.
 
So if you fail once you just quit.. They font have to run to Coruscant again.. But they can help the Rebellion against the Empire. They would have made for some great Generals. Again this is because of how Lucas wrote them in the PT had he made them more of what he had written and planed set up in the OT then no issues..

Where in the PT would they have had time to explore this? There are time restraints. In the immediate aftermath, there was no established rebellion anyways. It would be an easy retcon to make during a Kenobi show, went to exile, but dragged back into the fight.



But it was that change that George made that made Yoda a bit of a coward. Like I said because of how Lucas chose to ignore what he set up.. When exactly was Ben supposed train Luke? When was he going to take him to see Yoda. Keep him as only a teacher and Yoda is just doing what Yoda does. Waiting to train jedi.. Make him a general and he is just hiding not caring for what is happening in the galaxy

I hope you view Luke as a coward then.

Yoda: All his former pupils die, his order collapses, the Republic collapses, he fails to kill the man responsible, Sith rule the galaxy... goes into exile. Fairly reasonable response give his grand failure. Yoda is far from a coward.

Luke: Couple kids die, nephew turns, galaxy still at relative peace... goes and cries and hides for no reason whatsoever.

At least Yoda in exile served a purpose, stay alive to train Luke. Luke being a coward serves no purpose whatsoever other than to **** all over the character.


Well, Ben was training Luke in ANH until he sacrificed himself for them to escape. Then Yoda trained him but Luke runs away. They trusted in the living force and it ultimately worked out.

Look out.. Your getting close to how Rey might have been getting her training ;)

Nah. Luke struggled to lift a lightsaber. Rey could do mind tricks an fight Kylo all because she believed :gah:

I kinda already covered that. IMO George over complicated things with PT. With the years of training and starring the training as a child. Vader doesn't know he has kids, two of the best jedi ever just give up etc..

They had a purpose, to watch over and train Luke.


Same can be said that if you can protect others but value your own life over others.. Like Yoda and Ben.

As I said above, Luke's exile served no purpose. Literally none. Yoda and Ben exile served to train Luke which saved countless lives and restored the galaxy.



It was the way he was written and intended.. Simple as that. What are you missing here ?

Nothing. He was a teacher in the PT too. But he could fight too. Why don't you like that? You know how stupid it would be if this dude was some grand teacher and couldn't even fight?


Luke and Han were put into a situation that none of us saw coming. Han and Leia lost a child to the Dark Side. Luke lost a student to the dark side because of Manipulation by Snoke/Emperor. Thus sending everyone in a downward spiral. They were who they were until the dark even of Ben Solo going to the dark side happened. Tragedy changes people. Even so.. Han was the same guy.. Much like a couple who lose a child.. Very often the relationship does not survive. Han did the right thing and tried to save his son and bring him back.

I'm not going to cover the whole Fleeting instincts of Luke standing over a 25 year old Ben Solo and weather that is in character or not.. It works for me because IMO Luke was never perfect and in an instant he felt shame... He was manipulated by Snoke/ Emperor himself.. Because of his error with his nephew he could not go on..

Again Tragedy changes people.

Luke and Han were put into a situation that none of us saw coming. Luke and Leia lost Han to the bounty hunter. Leia lost billions of her people, planet blew up. Luke lost a teacher/aunt/uncle to the Empire. Thus sending Luke and Leia in a downward spiral. They were who they were even AFTER TRAGEDY.

In the OT we see these characters bounce back and now they just collapse into utter do nothing failures? Come on. ST goes completely against their characters.


As for Yoda.. Again I just go back to the original intent and how he was portrayed in the OT... There was a reason I felt that way and Lucas himself admitted that that is the way he envisioned Yoda. Because of the change Lucas made to the character he ends up betraying who he was in the OT (not a teacher) and the PT (runs and hides while people in the galaxy suffer)

Yoda literally taught every Jedi. How can you say he wasn't a teacher?



However My biggest issue with RJ was Holdo, Rose and all the dumb battle plans, boring space chase, and stupid Canto Bight scene.

All of that is much worse then anything in the entire SW saga.

Agreed.



That home world was the worst looking planet in the entire trilogy.. And Freaking Lucas brought back the Tarzan yell. It was just an awful sequence.


Kashyyyk is beautiful. It was in the middle of a war when we see it anyways :lol


That my friend was not fan service.. It was, as we all know, JJ being painted into a real corner. Plus the emperor had a major role in TROS and not a throwaway scene.

That was 1000% fan service to get OT/PT fans to bite and they hooked you right in.

Going all in on Kylo and not shoe horning Palpatine in for some last ditch nostalgic hail mary would have been far better.

Only reason Palps returned was because fans liked him.

You want to talk about original intentions, Lucas original intentions for Palps was for him to stay dead as told to us by the actor of Palps himself.

1000% fan service.

Chewie being in the PT for no real reason, having the Tarzan yell by another Wookie to harken back to Jedi.. now that is true fan service.

Again I would not have an issue with this. PT and ST are filled with fan service .. BUT... Because Han was 14 when the Clone wars was going on and Chewie had first hand knowledge of this.. Well it makes the conversation of the Falcon a bit less believable.

Han is known to be arrogant and stubborn. Him not believing it is not a stretch. Besides, he was still just a kid, I doubt he paid attention half way across the galaxy.


General Ducky Yamamoto infamous quote on JAWS after TROS release:

I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.


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BANZAI!

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Anyone who has a problem with Luke in the ST should equally have a problem with Obi-wan and Yoda of the PT deciding to take themselves out of the fight.

Kenobi/Yoda served a purpose going into exile, Luke didn't.

You can't say it was so they could train Luke because they weren't even training him. They waited till Obi-wan became elderly and till Yoda became even more elderly. They waited till Luke was 20 - which was too late by PT rules - and only certain happenstance events even seemed to bring Luke to Obi-wan in any case. I don't get the impression from ANH that Luke was in regular contact with the guy he knew as Old Ben. Meanwhile the situation had gotten much worse because the Emperor had strengthened his armies, fleets and hold over the galaxy and developed the Death Star. We're supposed to believe they thought Luke was going to fare better against all of that than they could have against the early Empire? As far as they knew at the time Vader was out of the picture and there wasn't yet any planet-destroying superweapon. Seems to me they had much better odds than Luke.

In the ROTS novelization, they explain that they wanted to trust in the Living Force to give Luke the self-discipline he needs. It worked. After seeing Anakin fall and collapse, it's surprising why they took a different route this time.

Luke did fare better than all of that though, with the assist from his father.

And remember they were expecting Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor - if they weren't confident that they could do it - 2 jedi masters/accomplished war generals - what possible hope did they think a single farmboy-turned jedi trainee had?

He is a Skywalker.

I can actually buy their going into exile in the immediate aftermath of the Jedi purge; with the exception of a select few like Bail Organa and Palpatine's collaborators, no one left in the Republic was clued into his being anything but the Supreme Chancellor. When the war is fought between a droid army and a now mind-controlled clone army, it was pretty easy for Palpatine to control the narrative and continue duping the people going forward. What I don't buy is Yoda and Obi-Wan staying in exile for so long. Based on how Lucas fleshed out their characters in the PT, any reasonable person would expect them to develop an underground network to identify & recruit kids with potential Force gifts before the Empire either killed them or snatched them up to be stormtroopers.
This. :lecture

That would be dangerous for them, and impractical. They would have to go from planet to planet and hope they sense a kid strong in the force.
 
That's all very good ajp. A shame so much of it wasn't actually IN the PT movies - other than the bit about Palpatine turning public opinion against the Jedi. The rest was left offscreen for pure speculation and that is the major failing of those movies for me. The Lars family stuff and the Organas were hugely important, least they should have been. When old Ben was talking about it it sounded like it had some pretty rich dramatic potential, moreso than making us watch Anakin/Padme/R2 and Threepio navigate through a CG droid factory environment dodging mechanical arms and falling off things into other things.

But... ajp literally pulled all that from the movies using simple logic :lol

We don't need every single little thing spelled out. If so, I got a long list for the OT then.

What wasn't in the movies?

"All Jedi were considered public enemies because the Chancellor-turned-Emperor declared that they attacked him and were corruptly trying to take power for themselves." - Stated in ROTS

"So, how would Yoda and Obi-Wan go around collecting kids from their families? Why would families be willing to give up their children to the declared enemy? In the past, the Jedi were hailed and glorified, so it'd be considered an honor. But after ROTS? Not the case at all. These families would be putting targets on their kids' backs. So, were Obi-Wan and Yoda supposed to steal them away? That would be a problem." - Simple logic

"Luke and Leia were the only hope because Yoda had managed to hide their lineage and potential power (offspring of the mighty Skywalker bloodline). Palpatine and Vader didn't know about their existence after the PT canon revision. We can come up with lots of reasons why they weren't trained sooner and still make it fit with the OT." Stated in movies

"Luke's training could've been forbidden by Owen. If he was being asked to raise a child not his own, he should get to say no to allowing that child to end up like his father. He'd consider Kenobi a part of the problem, and someone obsessed with war. And Obi-Wan would have to respect Owen's wishes with Luke. The Lars family would have every right not to want the eyes of the Empire fixed on their farm. Look what happened to that family when Kenobi's role as a general brought the Empire to their door." - Stated in ANH

"Maybe Leia was initially being groomed to rise in the senate and lead an overthrow of Palpatine that way (government led vs. military uprising). Who knows? That seems plausible to me. The people of Alderaan were peaceful, and perhaps Leia was seen as someone whose Force-guided intuition would change the tide peacefully. Or maybe Leia's adopted mom refused to let Bail turn her daughter over to the Jedi out of fear for her safety in their company (since they were targeted as public enemies). It could be as simple as a husband trying to do right by his wife." - Implied in ANH, Leia was in the senate and a rebellion leader.

What exactly in ajp's post wasn't shown? It all was.
 
Yoda hid while millions were being slaughtered but because it wasn?t jedi being slaughtered anymore Yoda just decided it was ok to play absentee protector.

Maybe he was protecting baby yoda on dagobah lol


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Luke hid while TRILLIONS were slaughtered and he hid for no reason, no purpose.

At least Yoda's exile paid off and saved the galaxy.
 
Welcome to Sideshow Freaks 2020, where lifelong OT Star Wars fans are favorably comparing TROS with ROTJ:slap
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Pretty sure they are all going through grief for the death of Star Wars they once knew. They haven't reached acceptance yet.

Stage 1 - Denial - The first reaction to learning about the death of a cherished franchise is to deny the reality of the situation. ?This isn?t happening, this can?t be happening,? people often think. It is a normal reaction to rationalize our overwhelming emotions.

Denial is a common defense mechanism that buffers the immediate shock of the loss, numbing us to our emotions or entrenching ourselves with the denial. We block out the words and hide from the facts. We start to believe that the ST is good, and is of value. For most people experiencing grief, this stage is a temporary response that carries us through the first wave of pain, although in special cases like this one, denial can last many years.

Stage 2 - Anger - As the masking effects of denial and isolation begin to wear, reality and its pain re-emerge. We are not ready. The intense emotion is deflected from our vulnerable core, redirected and expressed instead as anger. The anger may be aimed at inanimate objects, complete strangers like Ducky, friends or family.

Anger may be directed at other trilogies, such as the PT. Rationally, we know the PT is not to be blamed. Emotionally, however, we may resent the PT for causing us pain or for leaving us. We feel guilty for being angry, and this makes us more angry.

TheDucky who diagnosed the illness and was unable to cure the disease might become a convenient target. Star Wars professionals deal with hate and haters every day. That does not make them immune to the suffering of their patients or to those who grieve for them.

Do not hesitate to ask your Ducky to give you extra time or to explain just once more the details of the ST illness. Arrange a special appointment or ask that he telephone you at the end of his day. Ask for clear answers to your questions regarding diagnosis and treatment. Understand the options available to you. Take your time.

Stage 3 - Bargaining - The normal reaction to feelings of helplessness and vulnerability is often a need to regain control through a series of ?If only? statements, such as:

If only we had realized the ST was garbage sooner?

If only we got a second opinion from another PT fan?

If only we had tried to be a better person and not support the ST?

This is an attempt to bargain. Secretly, we may make a deal with George Lucas or our higher power in an attempt to postpone the inevitable, and the accompanying pain. This is a weaker line of defense to protect us from the painful reality that the ST is garbage.

Guilt often accompanies bargaining. We start to believe there was something we could have done differently to have helped save our franchise.

Stage 4 - Depression - There are two types of depression that are associated with mourning the franchise. The first one is a reaction to practical implications relating to the loss. Sadness and regret predominate this type of depression. We worry about the costs and future of the franchise. We worry that, in our grief, we have spent less time with others that depend on us. This phase may be eased by simple clarification and reassurance. We may need a bit of helpful cooperation and a few kind words.

The second type of depression is more subtle and, in a sense, perhaps more private. It is our quiet preparation to separate and to bid our franchise farewell. Sometimes all we really need is a hug, but it won't come from Chewbacca.

Stage 5 - Acceptance - Reaching this stage of grieving is a gift not afforded to everyone. ST reminders may be sudden and unexpected or we may never see beyond our anger or denial. It is not necessarily a mark of bravery to resist the inevitable and to deny ourselves the opportunity to make our peace that the ST was garbage. This phase is marked by withdrawal and calm. This is not a period of happiness and must be distinguished from depression.

Franchises that are terminally ill or aging appear to go through a final period of withdrawal. This is by no means a suggestion that they are aware of their own impending death or such, only that decline may be sufficient to produce a similar response. Their behavior implies that it is natural to reach a stage at which social interaction is limited. The dignity and grace shown by our dying franchise may well be their last gift to us, sadly, for Star Wars franchise, dignity and grace has been loss due to KK and RJ.

Coping with loss is ultimately a deeply personal and singular experience ? nobody can help you go through it more easily or understand all the emotions that you?re going through. But others can be there for you and help comfort you through this process. The best thing you can do is to allow yourself to feel the grief as it comes over you. Resisting it only will prolong the natural process of healing.
 
But... ajp literally pulled all that from the movies using simple logic :lol

We don't need every single little thing spelled out. If so, I got a long list for the OT then.

What wasn't in the movies?

"All Jedi were considered public enemies because the Chancellor-turned-Emperor declared that they attacked him and were corruptly trying to take power for themselves." - Stated in ROTS

"So, how would Yoda and Obi-Wan go around collecting kids from their families? Why would families be willing to give up their children to the declared enemy? In the past, the Jedi were hailed and glorified, so it'd be considered an honor. But after ROTS? Not the case at all. These families would be putting targets on their kids' backs. So, were Obi-Wan and Yoda supposed to steal them away? That would be a problem." - Simple logic

"Luke and Leia were the only hope because Yoda had managed to hide their lineage and potential power (offspring of the mighty Skywalker bloodline). Palpatine and Vader didn't know about their existence after the PT canon revision. We can come up with lots of reasons why they weren't trained sooner and still make it fit with the OT." Stated in movies

"Luke's training could've been forbidden by Owen. If he was being asked to raise a child not his own, he should get to say no to allowing that child to end up like his father. He'd consider Kenobi a part of the problem, and someone obsessed with war. And Obi-Wan would have to respect Owen's wishes with Luke. The Lars family would have every right not to want the eyes of the Empire fixed on their farm. Look what happened to that family when Kenobi's role as a general brought the Empire to their door." - Stated in ANH

"Maybe Leia was initially being groomed to rise in the senate and lead an overthrow of Palpatine that way (government led vs. military uprising). Who knows? That seems plausible to me. The people of Alderaan were peaceful, and perhaps Leia was seen as someone whose Force-guided intuition would change the tide peacefully. Or maybe Leia's adopted mom refused to let Bail turn her daughter over to the Jedi out of fear for her safety in their company (since they were targeted as public enemies). It could be as simple as a husband trying to do right by his wife." - Implied in ANH, Leia was in the senate and a rebellion leader.

What exactly in ajp's post wasn't shown? It all was.

This is clearly a difference of expectation and what we each wanted to see from the prequels. Yes the last two paragraphs you're quoting were stated in ANH but I expected and wanted it shown in the prequels. It was not. That's why I said to ajp that what he was talking about wasn't IN the prequels. Showing something trumps merely stating something. Showing is how you create emotional connection. And for me that massively hampered my ability to feel a connection between the trilogies - among other things like the overuse of CGI creating a jarring visual disconnect and the, IMO, significantly worse dialogue and acting. We'd probably disagree on that too but anyway...

We don't need every single little thing spelled out.

Come on man. I don't need something as insignificant as, say, 'Vader got in a shuttle and moved from Cloud City back to his Star Destroyer' spelled out as Lucas felt the need to do in the ESB Special Edition in 1997. The stuff I'm talking about carried a great deal more story & character drama importance than that.

The reason the Owen Lars stuff was so important to me is because for over 16 years (felt like an eternity back then) those pieces of dialogue in ANH were the primary strong references back to the PT era. Of course I was gonna draw from them what I expected to see play out in the prequels. Obviously not limited to that but it had to be in there somewhere for goodness sake.

We knew for well over a decade that Prequel movies were coming because ANH had been called Episode IV, ESB was called Episode V etc. These factors created hopes and expectations - arguably a great deal moreso than anyone had for a sequel trilogy which, when finally announced - and once we knew they weren't going to follow the existing EU - became a total open book as it were. And yeah, I don't like what they did there either. To use a cliched line 'we aren't so different you and I'. I just dislike one more Star Wars trilogy than you do.
 
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This is clearly a difference of expectation and what we each wanted to see from the prequels. Yes the last two paragraphs you're quoting were stated in ANH but I expected and wanted it shown in the prequels. It was not. Simple as that. The reason this stuff was so important to me is because for over 16 years those pieces of dialogue in ANH were the primary strong references back to the PT era. We knew for most of that same time that Prequel movies were coming because ANH had been called Episode IV, ESB was called Episode V etc. These factors created hopes and expectations - arguably a great deal moreso than anyone had for a sequel trilogy which once we knew they weren't going to follow the existing EU became a total open book as it were. And yeah, like you I don't really like what they did there either.

I agree with Adev. Star Wars and Terminator have both failed most of us fan's for what we wanted see and it really was simple overall to do. I liked Qui-Gon but he was unnecessary. Lucas went back too far in the prequels with Anakin. They should have shown him from episode 2 on up. First movie would have been Kenobi finding him and training him. Second movie would have been the clone wars and his fall. Third movie Vader hunting Jedi Knights and such. Terminator just needed to show the future war and end with Conner sending Reese back in time. Most fan's expected these things and would have been happy. The sequel trilogy is glittery crap. You put lipstick on a pig and it is still a pig, not something you show off at the prom.
 
Finally watching the Disney Gallery thing now. LOL...Filoni's full of crap. Qui-Gon "hasn't given up on the fact that Jedi are actually supposed to care -"

Anakin: "Have you come to free the slaves-"
Qui-Gon: "NO!"

:rotfl

I lose more respect for Filoni every time he opens his mouth.

:lol :lol :lol

Yeah, I appreciate how much Filoni loves the PT, and I salute him for trying make it seem deeper/better - but you can't just ignore characterizations on screen while trying to attach unfounded significance to things. Even the slightest bit of scrutiny can make his argument laughable, IMO. Hell, any asswipe can make stuff up and seem convincing if nobody is willing to question it. That's the key.

Here, let me try to do my own version of Filoni b.s. now. Remember, *don't* question any of it! Just believe it.

*Puts on cowboy hat*

The beautiful thing about the Duel of the Fates scene is that it's actually a metaphor for Anakin's destiny. Not only is it a foreshadowing battle between the light side (Jedi) and the dark side (Maul), much like the one Anakin will face personally, but it goes beyond that.

Think about Anakin's journey, and how that duel plays out in a symbolic way of heralding his destiny. It matches up exactly: first the light side dies in Anakin (as with Qui-Gon dying), then the dark side dies when Vader redeems himself (as when Maul falls), and what's left at the end is the light portrayed with Jedi Anakin's ghost (as with Kenobi surviving the duel).

Wasn't Phantom Menace sooooo deep, and intentionally symbolic on so many nuanced levels?

See? That's how easy it is to make a nonsensical association to something in order to pretend it meant more than it did.
 
Luke hid while TRILLIONS were slaughtered and he hid for no reason, no purpose.

At least Yoda's exile paid off and saved the galaxy.

Okay, I get that you don't like Luke's exile, but could you please stop pretending that a purpose for it wasn't clearly and explicitly presented on screen?

As per TLJ, Luke exiled himself not merely out of grief, and not just to "hide." I admit that's what most (including myself) would've assumed after TFA, but thankfully the story was handed off to someone who didn't want it to be a cowardly act. After Ben turned on Luke, killed his students, and torched his academy, Luke was confronted with the perception that every time this happened (Dooku, Anakin, Ben Solo) was because the Jedi arrogantly believed they could monopolize the Force without consequences.

Luke's exile was in an effort to end the Jedi religion in order to finally break that cycle. He gathered the Jedi texts that had been the foundation of that religion, he cut himself off from the Force, and he knew that his eventual death on that island (along with burning those books) would equal the end of the Jedi. And thereby an end to monopolizing the Force in a way that kept leading to upsetting the balance (peace).

He was wrong in his conclusions, and it was because his grief and guilt took him too far. He eventually snapped out of it. And then he ended his journey by embodying everything he was ever taught about what it means to be a Jedi: become one with the Force, use it for defense and not for attack, and help those who cannot help themselves. If you don't like that, then maybe you should ask yourself what a Jedi should actually be and see if it lines up with what Yoda taught in ESB. Please do that.

It's one thing to say you don't like the exile itself (I don't either), but it's absurd to suggest that there wasn't *an entire ****ing movie* dedicated to explaining its purpose. With Yoda and Kenobi after the PT, you have to draw upon inferences to explain their inaction for years; with Luke in the ST, you *don't* need to do that. It's spelled out!
 
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