The Official "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey" movie thread *SPOILERS*

[K07]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

But they aren't supposed to be a different species. Goblin and Orc are synonymous in Tolkien's works.

Huh. Where did the term "Orc" come from? Is that Tolkien original? All the other species and creatures for the most part are found in other culture's folketales and myths, but I never heard of an "Orc" until playing BioWare's Baldur Gate series (which is based on the 2nd Edition of AD&D).

 

[Fritz]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

In the time between the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings the Orcs/Goblins that occupied Moria are basically cleaned out so it's possible that a different breed of Orc/Goblin would move in.

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

But they aren't supposed to be a different species. Goblin and Orc are synonymous in Tolkien's works.

The words mean the same thing. From whats out there they're the same but different. You can read what CP has below and that's what I'm talking about. Same species but there is going to be some variance in it. I thought I read it someplace that Tolkien or his son mentioned it but I'd have to go digging for it.

I think he means, like people, we're all different. Same species, but we do have different looks from each other.

This^^

And I believe, personally, that the orcs in Moria (in the Fellowship of the Ring) ARE Goblins.

They're underground, they're smaller than regular orcs, live in caverns, have slave trolls and Legolas even sees their arrows and states, "GOBLINS".

I mean, they're from the Misty Mountains are they not?

They are. Orcs/Goblins are all part of the same species but they are a little bit different. I remember reading someplace they're like cousins the ones in Moria, Mordor, and in Goblin Town.

 

[Adolfo]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Goblins for me always meant those that lived in total darkness like underground, caves, Inside mountains and only venture out when it's completely night/dark...Now orcs stayed outside in camp sites,Towers etc and can venture outside during the day...They hate sun but on those cloudy days they do better...That's my interpretation and the way I see it...The Goblins did fight in the battle of the 5 armies so I think it will be a night time battle

 

[Njits]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

I thought "Goblins" were just what Hobbits call "Orcs". They're one and the same. But like any species, they have variance in intellect and physicality. Same with Gundabad orcs, they're still "orcs," but they're very different from the orcs in Mordor for instance. Gundabad orcs vary in size a lot, some are as big as Uruk-Hai or as small as a "goblin" they have beards and look a lot more like viking's then other orc species. Azog was a freak of nature, like Gothmog. They don't fit anywhere.

 

[Snadinator]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Huh. Where did the term "Orc" come from? Is that Tolkien original? All the other species and creatures for the most part are found in other culture's folketales and myths, but I never heard of an "Orc" until playing BioWare's Baldur Gate series (which is based on the 2nd Edition of AD&D).

Yup. It originated with Tolkien. It then got popularized in Dungeons and Dragons and later in video games like Warcraft

 

[TheProcrastinator]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

For Tolkien himself, Goblins and Orcs were without a doubt one and the same thing.

However in popculture fantasy its normal to distinguish the two as separate species. The movies often draw as much for Tolkien as they do from fantasy clishes and archetypes that came after him. I actually think its a good thing. I like my Goblins to be smaller than orcs. Beside's, one could argue, that since nobody ever makes any literal distinction between orcs and goblins in the movies, PJ technically didn't make any lore mistakes in this regard.

I also like the new visual designs for goblins in PJ's Hobbit. Not just becouse of variety which is good, but also couse I think this gnarly, twisted, bulbous, sickly-white look is very fitting image for a Goblin. Moria Orcs from FOTR were even better, but this is also very nice.

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Goblins for me always meant those that lived in total darkness like underground, caves, Inside mountains and only venture out when it's completely night/dark...Now orcs stayed outside in camp sites,Towers etc and can venture outside during the day...They hate sun but on those cloudy days they do better...That's my interpretation and the way I see it...The Goblins did fight in the battle of the 5 armies so I think it will be a night time battle

I think its supposed to be a night time battle. That's how I always played it out in my head.

I thought "Goblins" were just what Hobbits call "Orcs". They're one and the same. But like any species, they have variance in intellect and physicality. Same with Gundabad orcs, they're still "orcs," but they're very different from the orcs in Mordor for instance. Gundabad orcs vary in size a lot, some are as big as Uruk-Hai or as small as a "goblin" they have beards and look a lot more like viking's then other orc species. Azog was a freak of nature, like Gothmog. They don't fit anywhere.

Exactly

 

[NAZGUL-KING]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

I always took goblins to be a variation of orc just like there are different variations of trolls. I figured goblins to be a smaller breed of orc that hates sunlight and prefers living underground in deep caverns.

 

[NAZGUL-KING]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Heres how I see the orc food chain from top to bottom:

-Uruk-Hai - The largest variety of orc. (Uruks cross-bred with humans by Saruman)

-Uruk - The great orcs of mordor.

-Orc - The regular everyday working grunt variety like Saruman uses.

-Goblin - The runts of the species. Hate sunlight and only come out from their caves if they must.

 

[The Josh]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Pretty much how I see it.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Nazgul King - that makes sense, and I actually see it like that as well, but its more of a personal interpretation. There were different sizes and flavours of Orcs in Middle Earth, but nowhere in LOTR or Hobbit is it said or even suggested that Goblins are the smaller ones.

Tolkien used the word Goblin as kind of english tranlation for the word Orc. He never implied the two were different in any way. But that's just a bit o technical lore trivia for those who care about such ****. I actually like that PJ went with the general public depiction of Goblins as something runtier, weaker. It fits the word.

BTW: Does anyone have a link to some close up pictures of the new Elven Helmets designs? Not the updated High Elf version, I mean the one that Thranduil's army was using.

 

[K07]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Heres how I see the orc food chain from top to bottom:

-Uruk-Hai - The largest variety of orc. (Uruks cross-bred with humans by Saruman)

-Uruk - The great orcs of mordor.

-Orc - The regular everyday working grunt variety like Saruman uses.

-Goblin - The runts of the species. Hate sunlight and only come out from their caves if they must.

Works for me. Thanks! I didn't realize Uruk-Hai were half-orcs. I just saw they were HUGE.

 

[Njits]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Wait, Uruk-Hai weren't cross-bred with humans were they?

 

[NAZGUL-KING]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Yeah, You have a point Procrastinator. I kind of blur the line of Tolkien's version and PJ's Version. When I read anything Middle-Earth now all I see is how PJ envisioned it (which is fine by me). Unfortunately my mind wasn't a clean slate when I first read The Hobbit and LOTR as a kid, so I pictured everything as the Rankin-Bass cartoons.

 

[NAZGUL-KING]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Wait, Uruk-Hai weren't cross-bred with humans were they?

Yup.

 

[TheProcrastinator]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Yeah, You have a point Procrastinator. I kind of blur the line of Tolkien's version and PJ's Version. When I read anything Middle-Earth now all I see is how PJ envisioned it (which is fine by me). Unfortunately my mind wasn't a clean slate when I first read The Hobbit and LOTR as a kid, so I pictured everything as the Rankin-Bass cartoons.

Actually that a very touchy subject for some Tolkien fans. Becouse, while Peter Jackson love and passion for the source material is undeniable, it's also true that many of the things depicted in his movies, were probably nothing like what Tolkien envisioned. PJ and his team at Weta Workshop very often drew from different elements of popcutural fantasy, that were introduced through various RPG games and fantasy literature that came after Tolkien, but which many people came to associate with Middle Earth.

I actually thing its a good thing. All those fantasy tropes, archetypes and cliches are something that I love, and the designers at Weta Workshop have brought it all to never before seen level. But it has the be said, that some of it is clearly non-Tolkien. But I have absolutely no problem with most of it.

 

[Fritz]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

My interpretation was that although Goblins were a breed of Orc, they were smaller and lived underground while Orcs were larger and typically lived above ground.

For Tolkien himself, Goblins and Orcs were without a doubt one and the same thing...

I agree although it's debated because it's never actually been said or written by Tolkien definitively.

 

[NAZGUL-KING]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Actually that a very touchy subject for some Tolkien fans. Becouse, while Peter Jackson love and passion for the source material is undeniable, it's also true that many of the things depicted in his movies, were probably nothing like what Tolkien envisioned. PJ and his team at Weta Workshop very often drew from different elements of popcutural fantasy, that were introduced through various RPG games and fantasy literature that came after Tolkien, but which many people came to associate with Middle Earth.

I actually thing its a good thing. All those fantasy tropes, archetypes and cliches are something that I love, and the designers at Weta Workshop have brought it all to never before seen level. But it has the be said, that some of it is clearly non-Tolkien. But I have absolutely no problem with most of it.

Yeah, a very touchy subject indeed. Just ask Christopher Tolkien. I know everyone has their opinion and I'm not a Tolkien scholar by any means, but having read The Hobbit, LOTR and appendicies (many times), Unfinished Tales, and most of The Silmarillian (someday I'll get through it dammit) - I feel that PJ really hammered home the best of it. There's a couple of things that I wish he could have inlcuded, but for the most part agree with everything that was omitted or changed.

 

[Fritz]

Re: The Official "The Hobbit" movie thread *SPOILERS*

Wait, Uruk-Hai weren't cross-bred with humans were they?

Yup.

I'm not sure that's actually been written anywhere or set in stone.