The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Comic and Un-aired Spoilers unwelcome!)

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Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

I try my best not to be condescending or belligerent.

I think someone would have to put a lot of effort into being offended by your posts.

Murdered by Carl in issue #6. :lol

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

Carl didn't murder Shane, and neither did Rick. Murder is not the taking of a life. That's what killing is. Murder is the killing of another human being without the justification of protecting the one's own life from the threat of death by that same human being. Killing in self-defense, or in self-defense of another is not murder.

What Shane did to Otis and Randall was murder. What Rick did to the guys in the bar, and their friends, and to Shane was not murder. But if he had killed Randall, he would be guilty of the same crimes as Shane.

These characters are living in a state of nature. There is no legal authority for dealing with crime. That is what has changed in the world. They did not lose moral law. Moral law exists in a state of nature; it is natural law, applied to the lives of rational animals (animals which must choose their actions, hence need a standard by which to choose them). Law protects them from predation by those who achieve their goals by way of physical force, overriding the ability of others to choose. Physical force removes the efficacy of thought and volitional action. The forced and the chosen are opposites; the latter makes the former impossible.

Human beings cannot survive long range without morality. There is no situation, real or imagined in which they can survive by opposing the demands of their nature. A dog cannot live as a fish. A cat cannot live as a bird. A fly cannot live as an elephant. An organism can only survive if it acts according to it's identity. Nothing in human nature requires that they murder to survive.

Shane did not adapt to the 'new world'. He failed miserably. He saw the legal structures collapse and used it as an excuse to act inhuman. I think it's pretty obvious how that worked out for his survival.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

I was talking about the comic, bud. :lol

And Shane killing Randall being murder is incorrect (don't forget, Daryl was about to do the same before Dale's scream). He was just as justified in doing so as Rick was for shooting the guys in the bar. Again, you gotta live in a situation where others actually present a heavy risk to the safety of yourself, your family and/or your friends before you can understand the judgement call (otherwise, you're no different than the politicians and their supporters that you always jump all over for their kneejerk reactions and inability to properly access the situation they're commenting on). And we already know Shane was right, anyway. Randall was a rapist with bad intentions so your continual point there is wholly obstinate.
 
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Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

It's been years since I've read the comics, but didn't Carl kill Shane to protect his dad? I thought that's how I remembered it.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

It's been years since I've read the comics, but didn't Carl kill Shane to protect his dad? I thought that's how I remembered it.

Like the series, it'd be a matter of perception. Rick had a gun pointed at him but there was no promise that Shane would shoot him. It seemed like Shane was just trying to get his POV across to Rick. By Devil's argument, Carl should've shot him in the leg, or in the arm but instead, shoots him through the throat, causing him to bleed to death. In that instance, his death would've been uncalled for and in today's society, Carl would've been tried and likely convicted (as a child, with all the limitations of the juvenile courts, but convicted nonetheless). But overall, Shane is largely unappreciated in the comic as well for his contributions, but was given even less opportunity for character development than he was in the series.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

You draw, you better be ready to answer for it. Deadly threat calls for deadly force. Carl was fully justified.

It's been years since I've read the comics, but didn't Carl kill Shane to protect his dad? I thought that's how I remembered it.

He did.

And Shane killing Randall being murder is incorrect (don't forget, Daryl was about to do the same before Dale's scream).

Dale was right. Killing Randall was wrong. Rick was wrong, Daryl was wrong, Hershel was wrong. He posed no immediate threat to them, and was actually worth more to them alive than dead.

They were going to kill him because they didn't know what else to do with him. Dale's identification of that as an insane, stupid and immoral act was dead on.

He was just as justified in doing so as Rick was for shooting the guys in the bar.

He wasn't. If Rick didn't kill them, they would have killed him. No time, no room for error. Randall on the post? Lots of time, and lots of room for error.

Again, you gotta live in a situation where others actually present a heavy risk to the safety of yourself, your family and/or your friends before you can understand the judgement call (otherwise, you're no different than the politicians and their supporters that you always jump all over for their kneejerk reactions and inability to properly access the situation they're commenting on).

No, I don't, otherwise I couldn't know what I should do before I need to know it. What the hell good would it be for me to only be able to know what to do when it's too late to do it?

And if that experience was going to magically confer upon me knowledge of what I had been ignorant of just moments before, I couldn't come to the conclusion that killing Randall was not just wrong, it was dumb. It was not the right thing to do, whether he deserved it or not. Not if the survival of the people on the farm was important.

They have 30 heavily armed men approximately 5 miles away, looking for their farm. If Randall is as bad as suspicions have him, he told them all about it already.

Why would you kill the only source of information you have about a credible, imminent threat? All they had to do was let him escape, see where he goes, and drop him before he can give away their advantage.

But I guess the world has changed and letting yourself be ambushed is not as important as letting Shane feel like he's right.

And we already know Shane was right, anyway. Randall was a rapist with bad intentions so your continual point there is wholly obstinate.

I'm obstinate because you're wrong.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

Would it not have been more cruel and more inhuman to keep Randall the way they were than to simply execute him? I think cows waiting to be turned into Big Macs are probably treated more humanely than Randall was being treated.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

I'm obstinate because I'm far too proud to admit when I'm wrong.

Fixed for accuracy. :lecture:lecture:lecture

You have a well armed group of 30 men looking for the individual leading them to your farm. In your possession is a rapist who's told you just about all he's willing to. Keeping him around means an ever present risk of him escaping as well as the issue of lower security around the farm because at some point, every minute of the day, someone has to be watching him. Additionally, you have another mouth that needs to be fed 2,000 calories a day (a precious commodity in a post apocalypse with a harsh winter on the horizon), which is capable of screaming when uncovered, so not only is he depleting provisions, but in the process of caring for his well being still presents a security risk.

Now, "drop him off" you might say. Well, let's assume Rick and Daryl go to drop him off. You're running the risk of leaving the camp short of security again, with two of the heavy hitters in the group on escort duty. As we saw, taking him a short distance is out of the question given he's familiar with the landscape and can find his way home. So that would force them to be out longer, driving further. There are an immeasurable amount of risks involved with that including them running across a herd which permanently separates them from the farm. This doesn't even account for the lower security back at the farm with two main shooters and their weapons gone.

So in the end, you weigh the pros, the cons, and the risk. Randall is an expendable security risk who, from what we've seen, wouldn't hesitate to rape and murder. Only a complete incompetent totally incapable of truly accessing the situation would keep him around and said rapist isn't worth risking the lives of two people to procure his safety elsewhere.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

Ok. Sit and wait for the thugs to move in. I'm sure they'll let you know when they're coming so you'll have time to bake them a cake.

Would it not have been more cruel and more inhuman to keep Randall the way they were than to simply execute him? I think cows waiting to be turned into Big Macs are probably treated more humanely than Randall was being treated.

Would you rather get beaten or killed?
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

Who was responsible for the situation Randall ended up in?

Rick, because he wouldn't just leave the boy to be eaten alive. He basically prolonged someone's agony in an effort to make him feel good about himself. Or he did it because he wanted information. I would be more comfortable with the latter.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

I think his first reaction was that it was better in general to save the life than to let it go. I don't think he had a clear idea of why.

Information would be invaluable.

It's still not really Rick's fault though. He was acting as an enemy and he was captured. He has to worry about his survival at their hands because he was who he was and did what he did.

I don't think Randall's welfare was what made the choice to execute him wrong.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

Devil aked who was responsible for Randall's situation you responded that it was Rick.

I think you need to reread it for context. The "situation" we were talking about was Randall being in the barn. Not Randall ending up stuck like a pig on a fence.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

Randall was in the barn because he got stuck on the fence.

Wait, huh? Rick was responsible for Randall shooting at them and falling off a roof onto a fence?

Exactly. :lecture

i.e. His decision was inept. Even Hershall said leave the boy. :lol

Hershel is suddenly the light of wisdom?

They had access to a survivor who knew infinitely more about the people who were trying to kill them and find the farm than they did. Leaving him would have been stupid for that reason alone. Rick did the right thing, and probably could have figured it out fully if he didn't have panic (and ambition) screaming in his ear.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

I think you need to reread it for context. The "situation" we were talking about was Randall being in the barn. Not Randall ending up stuck like a pig on a fence.

But the "situation" exists because he fell off a roof. Rick took him there but Randall put himself there.
 
Re: The Walking Dead - TV Series on AMC ( Spoilers!!)

But the "situation" exists because he fell off a roof. Rick took him there but Randall put himself there.

What was first? The Chicken or the egg? Your argument is circular and goes nowhere. Randall was begging for help, but still Rick made the decision to save him. Randall was powerless.
 
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