WATCHMEN Movie Discussion (SPOILERS allowed)!

[The Mike]

I suppose you could cut Laurie and Dan too, and everything else that isn't Rorschach finding out that Ozy killed Comedian. But most stories can be boiled down to 3 characters.

You can't. Dan helps Rorschach find out the overall plan and breaks into the computer for information. Without Dan, Rorschach wouldn't have been able to figure it out, remember he isn't exactly technosaavy, not to mention he'd still be locked up in prison. Laurie serves as a catalyst for Dan's reinvolvement. The Death of the Comedian did not push him back in. The requests of his old partner did nothing. It was his relationship with Laurie that got the old juices flowing, without her he'd just be sitting around mourning Hollis.

Regardless of whether it was planned for 6 issues or 24 issues I'm still arguing that when you look at the end result of the comic series that you can't really have the same story without all characters involved. The added Dr. Manhattan scenes give you insight into the character and do not really move the story along but that does not make the character unneeded to the grand scheme of the storyline itself.

 

[The Mike]

Then there is Dr. Manhattan. You don't have to be Einstein to play "Which one Doesnt Belong". I can't say it enough...I like Dr. Manhatten. He deserves an entire story all to himself.

I don't think you dislike Manhattan other than getting his name wrong what I think is that you aren't giving the character his due. Essentially if Moore wanted to flex the Manhattan power it'd be over in two panels. It'd have gone 11 issues with the 12th just having him flick his hand and return the world to status quo. His leaving the novel and telling Adrian that "Nothing ever ends" is just another sign of disstain for humanity allowing them to live with what Veidt did to it. Its an irony because just a few moments before through Laurie he realizes how much humanity has to offer...

 

[Hulksmashed]

This is where I think you are absolutely 100% wrong. The same story couldn't have. Remove Manhattan from the book. Its his technology and help that allows Adrian to create the squid. Its also because he has to rid himself of Manhattan that he goes through the charade. The entire focus of the world is on whether Manhattan causes cancer or whether Manhattan can be trusted so he continues his work unfettered. If you remove Manhattan what does the world focus on? Where does Veidt get the technological advances? It would be a completely different novel altogether. The Comedian would have died, Veidt would have staged the assassination attempt but for what? You have to remember that half the technological advances are credited to Dr. Manhattan and without them the smartest man on the planet would still be the smartest man having to figure out another angle. My argument is not that Manhattan's action or inactions are his only focal and that he is just background fodder, I'm telling you that without him there would be no plan. Essentially no character can be removed and tell the same story.

Well its ok to agree to disagree. You argue though, that its Manhattans tech that allows Adrian to do the things he does. Still though you are looking only at how the story was written. The Marvel universe has technology way beyond ours...they credit that to the smartest men in the marvel universe... In other words, if the story was written without Dr. Manhatten, everything could have been explained away with things that already exist in the same world.

ALL of the Manhattan inspired Tech can be explained away by Adrian devolping things cause hes the smartest man in the world.

Winning Nam wouldnt even have to be touched on

Only a small part of Adrians plan included Dr. Manahattan. Get rid of Manhattan and get rid of Adrian's plot to get RID of Manhattan and nothing changes.

To sum up my opinion on Manhattan...I liken him to Santa Clause. I for one LOVE the idea of Santa Clause. Whats his real purpose though? Why do we explain to our children that gifts are brought by a jolly red suited man with flying rain deer (I understand the roots of Santa Clauses origin). He is useless... Do you stop buying gifts for a person as soon as they stop believing in santa clause? Likewise, does Christmas cease to exist without the idea of Santa Clause? Christmas might have a slightly different feel/execution but its still Christmas.

Similarly Manhattan is a great idea. A fun character to explore. But, get rid of him and you can still tell the "Watchmen" story effectively. You just don't have a figure head standing above it all looking down.

 

[Fubeca]

Saw it, only 30 minutes was good the rest was...forgetable!

 

[The Mike]

You can't Agree to Disagree and then continue to argue with open ended points that bate a response. So instead of engaging in further banter that really has proven at this point to desway either of us, I'll just leave it to that. Agree to Disagree.

Although I will say this before move on if you look strictly on the film adaptation of it, you could essentially tell the same exact story without Adrian Veidt. In the film his active role has been taken down with the increase of the nuclear angle from Dr. Manhattan.

 

[Entropy]

You can't. Dan helps Rorschach find out the overall plan and breaks into the computer for information. Without Dan, Rorschach wouldn't have been able to figure it out, remember he isn't exactly technosaavy, not to mention he'd still be locked up in prison.

all minor story points. Rorschach finds the info on a piece of paper, a thug tells him, or he simply figures out the password himself, etc. He obviously would have broken himself out of prison, etc.

The argument was 'what is the crux of the story' - 1 character discovers the villain's plan, is murdered and the investigation of his death by another character reveals the master plan and why the murder occurred. But the plot is much more than just the mystery story McGuffin so I agree that no characters are superfluous.

 

[teemu]

Watchmen = New World Order propaganda

 

[The Mike]

I'll definitely give you that, some characters have more importance than others and many of Dan and Laurie's actions could be considered minor story points but if you go by the idea that Veidt's plan was to enact this on a particular day and time that while Rorschach most likely would have gotten himself out of prison and figured out how to get the Veidt information without Dan it would have taken longer and may have missed the deadline....if you look it at that angle of course.

 

[Hulksmashed]

I don't think you dislike Manhattan other than getting his name wrong what I think is that you aren't giving the character his due. Essentially if Moore wanted to flex the Manhattan power it'd be over in two panels. It'd have gone 11 issues with the 12th just having him flick his hand and return the world to status quo. His leaving the novel and telling Adrian that "Nothing ever ends" is just another sign of disstain for humanity allowing them to live with what Veidt did to it. Its an irony because just a few moments before through Laurie he realizes how much humanity has to offer...

My only argument there is that he kills Rorshach before he goes. So if he truly wanted to forsake humanity and let them live with what Adrian did...there is no reason for him to have killed Rorshach. Because that is taking a pretty strong hand in humanity....

 

[Fubeca]

Why the hell was the stupid plugged in car at the end put in there?!?!?

 

[Hulksmashed]

You can't Agree to Disagree and then continue to argue with open ended points that bate a response. So instead of engaging in further banter that really has proven at this point to desway either of us, I'll just leave it to that. Agree to Disagree.

Although I will say this before move on if you look strictly on the film adaptation of it, you could essentially tell the same exact story without Adrian Veidt. In the film his active role has been taken down with the increase of the nuclear angle from Dr. Manhattan.

Oh agree to disagree was just mean to show that I'm not arguing with you because Im angry at what your saying. I enjoy discussing from different view points.

I agree that you you can tell the same story without Adrian in the movie. Thats why I liked the Dr. Manhattan story more in the movie. Because it tied Manhattan in to a point where he definately can't be viewed as pointless. And since I love the idea of his character I enjoy a world where he has more influence (whether voluntary or involuntary).

 

[Shai]

Watchmen = New World Order propaganda

 

[The Mike]

Actually you would say that if he loved humanity he would have let Rorschach go, expose Veidt and then taken a hand in the clean up and restructuring. I saw it more as a last bit of allow humanity to sink, a kind of you've hung yourself with your own noose so I'm going to let you hang not allow someone to cut you down. He was planning on leaving so he could have just left and allows things to play out but it was the lesser of two evils. To allow Veidt's charade instead of exposing it and having things become more complicated. If you really look deep into it once the experiment was completed and the interference was ceased could Manhattan see the journal at the New Frontiersman and if so it makes it more poetic that he'd kill Rorschach considering that the words of a dead man in modern society are often given more creditability that someone who can be argued and proven wrong face to face.

You could really turn yourself in circles if you really pick apart the actions of each character and looking at the possible ramifications.

 

[The Mike]

Why the hell was the stupid plugged in car at the end put in there?!?!?

I thought this was a nod to the Electric Car conversation Manhattan had in the comic. :

 

[Kabukiman]

Why the hell was the stupid plugged in car at the end put in there?!?!?

Because Doc Manhattan helped the technology of that world progress faster than our world.

It's in the book.

 

[The Mike]

Oh agree to disagree was just mean to show that I'm not arguing with you because Im angry at what your saying. I enjoy discussing from different view points.

Ah got it. :

 

[Hulksmashed]

Actually you would say that if he loved humanity he would have let Rorschach go, expose Veidt and then taken a hand in the clean up and restructuring. I saw it more as a last bit of allow humanity to sink, a kind of you've hung yourself with your own noose so I'm going to let you hang not allow someone to cut you down. He was planning on leaving so he could have just left and allows things to play out but it was the lesser of two evils. To allow Veidt's charade instead of exposing it and having things become more complicated. If you really look deep into it once the experiment was completed and the interference was ceased could Manhattan see the journal at the New Frontiersman and if so it makes it more poetic that he'd kill Rorschach considering that the words of a dead man in modern society are often given more creditability that someone who can be argued and proven wrong face to face.

You could really turn yourself in circles if you really pick apart the actions of each character and looking at the possible ramifications.

Now THAT is a point of view I like! I argued the fact that Manhattan was able to see the journal, so why kill rorshach off. Maybe it was his Swan Song for humanity. Killing Rorshach is no more then stepping on an ant to Manhattan....interesting.

 

[Fubeca]

Because Doc Manhattan helped the technology of that world progress faster than our world.

It's in the book.

Ah so it is ok to build an electric car as long as you keep a hoax quiet? FOr humanities sake?!??!?!? Like I said ....FORGETABLE!

Sorry, just ended up not liking the movie like I thought I would...

 

[ProgMatinee]

Again, this is without knowledge of the book, but I saw Rorshach dying because they were long time friends and Manhattan was helping his friend out because Rorshach was asking to die because he accomplished what he needed to accomplish and didn't want to live with all his emotional scars anymore. But I was drunk by the end.

 

[YoNoSe]

Again, this is without knowledge of the book, but I saw Rorshach dying because they were long time friends and Manhattan was helping his friend out because Rorshach was asking to die because he accomplished what he needed to accomplish and didn't want to live with all his emotional scars anymore. But I was drunk by the end.

That's an interesting point. Moore has said that Rorschach clearly had a death wish. He was in constant emotional pain but wanted an honorable death. Putting aside the plot requirements, I thought it was evident on his face in the film that he wanted it. Such a great performance.