WATCHMEN Movie Discussion (SPOILERS allowed)!

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What makes Watchmen "cool" is the gathering of such dysfunctional, damaged characters looking to do good in the world even though their own personal lives are in such disarray. They a flawed heroes and in 1985 we were coming out of a Silver Age of comics where heroes like Superman were out there being the big blue boy scout. The Batman was running around in light blue and grey partnering with Robin and driving cars with huge bats on them. Green Lantern, The Flash, Wonder Woman were all fluffy. Watchmen along with stories like Bryne's Man of Steel brought reality to DC Comics which had been missing that particular aspect for a while. The Comedian, Rorschach, Silk Spectre all very much anti-heroes, opposite to what was out there in pop culture. Dr. Manhattan the "Superman" for this world was amazingly uninterested in humanity while the actual Superman was dying to be a part of it.

That is what was cool, the complete 180 the original did on the Comic Book realm. That particular aspect will be lost though in the film simply because Comic Book films have already taken a darker, grittier tone.
 
And theres nothing wrong with rooting for the villian.

Meh. Go read Killer on the Road by James Ellroy and see if you feel the same.
It's got this rooting for the villain, whatever I think and feel is ok, self indulgent, hedonistic thing going on. It's one of the stories that helped open my eyes to the creepy "hurting people is fun" escapism you mentioned that is prevalent in so many stories today.
 
Well thats how I view it.

But this is half of what Moore is going for. Watchmen is a direct attack not just on superhero comics but also their fans. He knows there's going to be a percentage of people so deeply rooted in the genre they can't break free of the conditioning. I'm not saying you are one of these people, but you're probably not making this argument on a Ted Bundy message board.

There's a reason why all the characters in Watchmen are archetypes. We immediately grab on to them. And then Moore deconstructs the imagery and traditions that have built up over the course of superhero comic publishing. So of course the Captain America figure would be in Nam. The ultimate capitalist, thinking nothing of violence for money. Then it goes farther. He's a rapist. A murderer. A man who would rather kill the mother of his child than "interact" or have any kind of meaningful relationship with another human being. And killed not just because he could expose Ozymandias' plan, but because there's just no room for "heroes" like him in the new world order. They're counterproductive.

It's the ultimate joke in some ways, because Moore knows there will still be some people so conditioned by superheroes that even being shown these things, they still make excuses and buy Comedian action figures. I don't know. Maybe those people are buying Ted Bundy figures too. Maybe they're making excuses for Hitler in history class, because he probably cried during the long dark tea time of the soul too.

But I doubt it.

What's your take on Rorschach, barbelith? Certainly the man has snapped and suffers from mental illness but how insane is he? He is aware of both the nature and quality of his actions and he knows that society views his brutality as wrong and illegal.

But he doesn't view his actions as wrong, and so he tumbles into the abyss. This is a guy who drops people down elevator shafts. A guy who casually tortures someone who may be completely unrelated to his case to investigate his case. We might feel sympathy for his downward spiral, but we're certainly not supposed to like him.

Remember too that Rorshach was sane whilst adventuring with Nite Owl in the past. The Rorshach we see in the present sequences is insane.

Is there anyone or anything in the story to admire, emulate or point to as being "cool"?

This depends on how we define cool. I would say no in the colloquial sense. But I think Dan emerges reasonably well all things considered. He's the one guy to reach out to Rorshach through the illness. He's the one guy who came to adventuring through innocence; his gadgets are fun and defensive. His costume has become a fetish and I don't deny he's rather sad in a way.

But I think largely the entire point of Watchmen is to tell comic readers that superheroes are outdated relics their fans are dysfunctional. It's incredibly contemporary in a way, because many of its themes are directly tied to US torture operations and the way we perceive our imperialist foreign policy today. Moore wants us to take the mask off more than the characters.
 
Meh. Go read Killer on the Road by James Ellroy and see if you feel the same.
It's got this rooting for the villain, whatever I think and feel is ok, self indulgent, hedonistic thing going on. It's one of the stories that helped open my eyes to the creepy "hurting people is fun" escapism you mentioned that is prevalent in so many stories today.

Whatever. I'd rather not. I enjoy rooting for Jason Voorhees, the Predator, The Terminator, ect.

Hurting people is not fun. Watching someone else, pretend to hurt someone using special effects, is.
 
That is what was cool, the complete 180 the original did on the Comic Book realm. That particular aspect will be lost though in the film simply because Comic Book films have already taken a darker, grittier tone.

It will be lost in the film because the film doesn't bother to really explore what Moore was doing. Which wasn't to look at the bright fluffy comics and say, "We need a darker, grittier tone." At all.
 
That's the important thing. :rolleyes:

Well yeah. What, I cannot find these characters facisnating? Is that a crime? I cannot buy a Comedian action figure because he's a monster?

I cannot buy a Darth Vader action figure because he was a evil SOB? I cant buy a Predator action figure because he hunts people?

Doesnt matter. I can do whatever I want to. I can think how I want to, and I can buy a toy of whoever I want to.

These characters, visually, are appealing. Thats a fact.
 
I can do whatever I want to. I can think how I want to, and I can buy a toy of whoever I want to.

Yes. I just find it baffling people can like the book enough to spend all kinds of additional money on toys and such without actually understanding it.

These characters, visually, are appealing. Thats a fact.

And the Nazis wore Hugo Boss.
 
Whatever. I'd rather not. I enjoy rooting for Jason Voorhees, the Predator, The Terminator, ect.

Hurting people is not fun. Watching someone else, pretend to hurt someone using special effects, is.

In this day and age, people do tend to emulate what they see on a daily basis and what they view as "fun". Tis a slippery slope. Finding joy and fun in rooting for death and pain doesn't seem to be a healthy pursuit however you cut it. But as you pointed out, the great hedonism machine continues to whir and we are all free to think and indulge in whatever we choose.
 
In this day and age, people do tend to emulate what they see on a daily basis and what they view as "fun". Tis a slippery slope. Finding joy and fun in rooting for death and pain doesn't seem to be a healthy pursuit however you cut it. But as you pointed out, the great hedonism machine continues to whir and we are all free to think and indulge in whatever we choose.

Only crazy people.

I've never, ever gotten into a fight with someone. And I dont plan to. In fact, i'll probably find a way out of a fight, because I dont want to hurt anyone.

And I dont see how it is not healthy or healthy...it doesnt effect me. I know its all fake, and its all made up, and I also enjoy the special effect aspect of it.

If I saw some guy in a hockey mask kill a bunch of teenagers right in front of me, I can tell you, that would not make me happy. In fact, i'll probably be scarred for life. I'm not intrested in watching real people die. But actors, using effects, and fake blood? Oh yes!
 
Only crazy people.

I've never, ever gotten into a fight with someone. And I dont plan to. In fact, i'll probably find a way out of a fight, because I dont want to hurt anyone.

And I dont see how it is not healthy or healthy...it doesnt effect me. I know its all fake, and its all made up, and I also enjoy the special effect aspect of it.

If I saw some guy in a hockey mask kill a bunch of teenagers right in front of me, I can tell you, that would not make me happy. In fact, i'll probably be scarred for life. I'm not intrested in watching real people die. But actors, using effects, and fake blood? Oh yes!

but subconsciously you do enjoy it. In a matter of fact, we all do. I dont care what anybody says we enjoy real life violence. Not to the extreme degree of watching somebody dies or get horrible mutilated. We all watched sports, boxing, UFC, wrestling (please no its fake comments), documentaries on violence. People love violence. Freddy Kreuger is a child murderer mostly a child rapist too but he have millions of fans worldwide.
 
Well...I dont enjoy watching real people really die in a horrible way.

But yes. I enjoy violence...but I dont like sports so....
 
Only crazy people.

And I dont see how it is not healthy or healthy...it doesnt effect me.

Sadly, this isn't true.

What you put into your body and mind affects you, whether you want to believe it or not.

Of course there isn't a one to one corollary, watch a slasher flick turn into a serial killer. But if you honestly believe people don't become more like those they hang out with or emulate what they see in popular culture then nothing's going to change your mind except age and experience. The subtext that violence is fun is juvenile, simplistic and not a cool message to put into people's heads.
 
It will be lost in the film because the film doesn't bother to really explore what Moore was doing. Which wasn't to look at the bright fluffy comics and say, "We need a darker, grittier tone." At all.

By Moore's own words was to reflect contemporary anxieties and to deconstruct the superhero concept. The original idea was to show what superheroes would be like in the real world. As the story became more complex, it became about about the superman complex both visually through Dr. Manhattan and through the individual Superman complexes within each of the characters to certain degrees.

The darker, grittier tone was a natural side effect of the attempt to show realism is what I was implying.
 
The subtext that violence is fun is juvenile, simplistic and not a cool message to put into people's heads.

I don't even think it's a conscious thing; certainly I don't believe normal people watch this stuff and decide to shoot up the school or whatever. But it does have an unconscious numbing effect. Look how little anyone cares when they see actual destruction in Gaza, for example.
 
I can watch Friday the 13th all day. And when i'm done, I have no intention of hurting people.

However, your view on the people your with, is true. But not all the time. I try NOT to be like the people I hang out with...but thats a different story. I'm talking strictly movies. I dont want to kill anyone, or steal, or do horrible things, after watching a movie. Because the movie already filled my desires. Escapism.
 
The darker, grittier tone was a natural side effect of the attempt to show realism is what I was implying.

Gotcha. I agree. In fact this was the major failing of almost every single "gritty" comic to follow, which thought darker tones were an end in themselves.
 
I would have to agree with you 110% barbelith. Unfortunately people think that darker and gritty mean to be edgy and cutting edge.
 
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