WATCHMEN Movie Discussion (SPOILERS allowed)!

[YoNoSe]

Well....if he actually had sex with her, would pretty much be rape...and starting to have sex, but then getting your ass kicked by a homosexual guy in a purple hood with a noose around his head, would be attempt.

Oh he bonked her later...but on better terms methinks.

Yes, I've read the book.
My point is if you're attempting a rape you are a rapist. Period.

 

[plasmid303]

Regardless, is there any reason to distinguish between an attempted rapist and a successful rapist?

For some fans, deciding whether The Comedian is a likable character hinges on that extrication.

 

[CelticPredator]

Yes, I've read the book.
My point is if you're attempting a rape you are a rapist. Period.

Alright...but still. Thats what makes the character so great. He does these awful awful things....but yet you cant hate him entirely... You do feel he has some good in him...he just doesnt quite know how. Best Comedian scene is right after the party. When he talks to Laurie, and Sally drives away. The look on his face tells all.

 

[YoNoSe]

For some fans, deciding whether The Comedian is a likable character hinges on that extrication.

You're right. Which is another case of people missing the point.

 

[plasmid303]

Right. I think most people are mistaking or unconsciously switching "attempted" with "alleged." It's some sort of odd justification for liking this flawed character. Doesn't mean you have to hit them over the head with it.

 

[Bloodsport]

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I just love this guy!!!! He passionate about his ^^^^.

 

[YoNoSe]

I think it definitely merits discussion. If a someone has to downplay the fact that the character is a rapist because they want to identify him as the Kick-Ass Hero then I believe the themes of the story are pretty much lost on them. I don't think pointing that out is out of line for a discussion of this film.

 

[plasmid303]

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I just love this guy!!!! He passionate about his ^^^^.

"people, Watchmen...(long, protracted pause)...is not entertainment. It's not there to entertain you, for your pleasure. Watchmen is trying to educate you to the world of today..."

"Watchmen is like the bible."

Get off your ^^^^ing high horse, you pretentious ^^^^^^^. What's with this guy? He did the same thing with Terminator: Salvation.

 

[barbelith]

I think it definitely merits discussion. If a someone has to downplay the fact that the character is a rapist because they want to identify him as the Kick-Ass Hero then I believe the themes of the story are pretty much lost on them. I don't think pointing that out is out of line for a discussion of this film.

Seriously. It's telling too that discussion always winds up centering on this point when the Comedian casually murders a pregnant woman elsewhere in the book. You're not supposed to like him. His fans are a sign of how lost our culture is, really. I'm sure Hitler was fun at tea parties.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

"yoooooooooooou will sufer!"

 

[CelticPredator]

Seriously. It's telling too that discussion always winds up centering on this point when the Comedian casually murders a pregnant woman elsewhere in the book. You're not supposed to like him. His fans are a sign of how lost our culture is, really. I'm sure Hitler was fun at tea parties.

Well, the reason I like him, isnt because he's "badass" or "cool". Its because you can tell he wants to be a part of the social world, he wants to fit in, but his view on the world is so cynical. And he has his moments of humanity, such as after the party, and like I said, theres this panel and you can see the emotion.

And especially when he's at Moloch's, crying his eyes out.

The book pretty much says "Hey, you should hate all these characters..."

Well I cant. Rorschach is a pathetic loser, and you feel for the guy, Dan is a whiney boring man, but you want him to succeed. Thats why this book is so great. You can identify with all these characters (hopefully to a point....).

 

[Entropy]

Seriously. It's telling too that discussion always winds up centering on this point when the Comedian casually murders a pregnant woman elsewhere in the book. You're not supposed to like him. His fans are a sign of how lost our culture is, really. I'm sure Hitler was fun at tea parties.

Exactly.

he wants to be a part of the social world, he wants to fit in

I never got that vibe at all. To varying degrees, these characters revel in not fitting in, find and define themselves in their distance from normal life.

He's a monster and knows it, a gun for hire, which is certainly one reaction to a corrupt world but not a healthy one. These are flawed, broken people. They do good things, they do bad things. Like most people, you can find things to like or dislike about them, no one is 100% anything, but to brush aside or rationalize the horrors and concentrate on the cool lone cowboy Marlboro Man machismo is disturbing.

Personally, the only character I come close to admiring is Rorschach. I never get the impression he is a "loser" at all. Because he has chosen not to pursue wealth or comfort, chosen the homeless vigilante path instead of a "normal life" he's a loser? His "never surrender, never despair" refusal to compromise his beliefs is an attractive philosophy on the surface, like Ayn Rand or Batman, but ultimately is too rigid, too black and white for practical life. Plus, he has abandoned his humanity and joy to become this spirit of vengeance, so that's not something one would particularly care to emulate.

 

[CelticPredator]

I got the vibe from both the Moloch part, and the "Old friends daughter." He wanted to interact with her, but he couldnt.

 

[barbelith]

Well, the reason I like him, isnt because he's "badass" or "cool". Its because you can tell he wants to be a part of the social world, he wants to fit in, but his view on the world is so cynical. And he has his moments of humanity, such as after the party, and like I said, theres this panel and you can see the emotion.

Hitler loved his puppy.

The Comedian doesn't want to fit in or be a part of the social world. It's stated multiple times in the book in various ways. He's a sociopath.

 

[CelticPredator]

But there is a longing to interact. IMO

Or thats how I view the guy. But I cant actually defend him.

 

[Entropy]

I got the vibe from both the Moloch part, and the "Old friends daughter." He wanted to interact with her, but he couldnt.

So because he drunkenly cries and says "forgive me" to Moloch and that he wants to communicate with his daughter it implies that he wants to be "a part of the social world and fit in"? I don't see it. Sure it humanizes the monster a bit, but is really just more of his self centered myopia. Selfishness doesn't score points.

As barbelith pointed out, I'm sure Hitler cared about his family and cried from time to time. Who knows if he ever drunkenly asked the dark for forgiveness? Doesn't make the man or his deeds any more likable or does it?

 

[barbelith]

But there is a longing to interact.

Ted Bundy had that too.

This is half of what Watchmen is about, and the sheer number of fans who hold up Rorshach and the Comedian as "cool" characters is just a colossal Missing Of The Point.

 

[CelticPredator]

Well thats how I view it. You dont have to agree.

And I never said that made him a good person. I told you, I cant defend the guy.

 

[Entropy]

Ted Bundy had that too.

that's why he's such a likeable "badass".

just a colossal Missing Of The Point.

I think we'll see a lot more of this once the film comes out, assuming the film doesn't miss the point as well.

What's your take on Rorschach, barbelith? Certainly the man has snapped and suffers from mental illness but how insane is he? He is aware of both the nature and quality of his actions and he knows that society views his brutality as wrong and illegal. Surely he would not be effective in his pursuit if he were not violent and uncompromising.

Is there anyone or anything in the story to admire, emulate or point to as being "cool"?

What I find so interesting about stories like this and characters like Rorschach, Dr. M, Comedian, Ozy, even Nixon is this notion of how much evil are you willing to commit in order to do good? It's conversation I've always wanted to have with Prick Chaney.

 

[CelticPredator]

Exacly.

And theres nothing wrong with rooting for the villian. Heros bore me. If I go to see Friday the 13th, I'm not seeing the film to see the kids win. I want to see Jason do his thing. Why? Because. Its escapism. Everyone has had thoughts of doing horrible things to others. But most of us dont. We are all flawed human beings. All of us. Not one person is purely good, or purely bad. We have our ups and downs.

And thats what makes Watchmen interesting. You can in some way relate to each and everyone of these characters. So you can tell me i'm missing the point all you want, but this is how I feel.

And by the way, i'll buy a 150 dollar figure of a rapist murder because he LOOKS cool. Yeah...he does. And so does Rorschach.