bumblebee
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which had nothing to do with your post about Mace underestimating Sidous
Sious manipulation skills had nothing to do with it
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Who had the upper hand, Mace or Palpatine?
- Thread starter Prime Clone
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which had nothing to do with your post about Mace underestimating Sidous
Sious manipulation skills had nothing to do with it
This thread rated
Outer_Rim
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No, Mace realized Palpatine had too much control over the Senate and the Courts. That is the reason why he was too dangerous to be kept alive.
bagelsncheesey
Super Freak
lerath666
Super Freak
Hurray for SLJ hero worship
hairlesswookiee
PALPATINE CRUSADER!!!!
lerath666
Super Freak
but what about stephen hawkins beating the hell out of chuck norris?
DouglasMcc
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Wow. 42 pages in a week ... and nary an open mind in the bunch (admittedly, I stopped reading after 45 minutes so I only got to the mid 30's ... did it take a turn for the better at the end?)
What I am about to say will probably offend more than anything that has come before it but so be it: Star Wars and it's movie sequels/prequels are Art. Yeah, some will claim that "popcorn" flicks are not art, but I don't agree. Thousands of talented people, from computer F/X people to costume designers to actors, etc. up to Lucas himself invested enough creative energy that I consider the works "art". And the best art is interpretive in nature. I look at a Picasso, I take away something personal. You look at the same work, you could see something else entirely. Both points of view are valid and "right".
To be truthful, the question itself is flawed. At which point in time are we deciding who had the upper hand? At the beginning of the fight? After Mace disarmed him? After Anakin enters? What elements are we considering? Just Palpatine's powers of fighting/force or are we including Anakin's manipulation into the equation? Without pinning the debate to more specifics, it's not really a valid discussion.
I am going to share my opinion (opinion Josh, just my OPINION ... j/k). Let me say upfront, it's based on EU and Movie details combined. A lot of people seems to think that George Lucas hates the EU. Most of that stems from an interview with TV Guide back in the early 2000's. Here's the part everyone likes to quote:
Lucas: Oh, sure. They're done outside my little universe.
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world.
When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one.
Most people look at the terms "intrude" and "parallel" along with the Star Trek reference and assume that means that Lucas hates the EU. But, I don't see it that way. Hell, if Lucas hated the EU, why would he mention Quinlin Vos in ROTS (one of the most notable EU characters created by Dark Horse)? Why would he pay 100's of people to analyze every bit of EU work before it releases for inaccuracies and content? It all makes no sense from that standpoint. After the Clone Wars cartoon came out, and Lucas loved it so much, he was quoted as saying, "the events in the cartoon were canon" to him. To me, he basically was saying, "if I decide to reverse something or contradict something in a future work or project, my work supersedes all previous materials." Even his quote up above seems to be, "these other works fill in the spaces between my movies - the events run parallel to my movies." Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I approach things.
Lets go over a few guidelines - my presumptions if you will:
I really couldn't care less what Nick Gillard thinks. He was a stunt coordinator, not a writer. If the costume designer told you that Palpatine's tunic was made of Cortosis and therefore was impervious to lightsabers, would you accept that as fact?
I accept Vaapad as a real element of the Star Wars universe. It has been cover enough in the Star Wars EU to have credence. It's also included in the official sites Star Wars database, so it's canon to me.
So, with those two caveats out of the way, here's my opinion:
If you are talking about fighting ability, Mace was clearly more powerful than Palpatine. Some of you have stated that Palpatine/Sidious was a master swordsman. No where in the EU or movies is that really explored. Does he kill the other Jedi rather easily? Yes. But I have always interpreted that as a result of his deception. Palpatine's entire career as a Sith is based upon deception and strategy, not brute strength. He's the tactician, whereas Maul, Dooku, Vader were his blunt instruments. The other Jedi did not expect Palpatine to attack them. Look at their reactions, placement of their sabers, etc. Palpatine was a good fighter, but there is no way he could have defeated all 4 Jedi under normal circumstances. He needed the element of surprise. After Mace reacted to his assault and realized what Palpatine was capable of, the element of surprise was gone. It then became a one-on-one saber fight and I don't believe Palpatine could have won under those circumstances.
In my opinion Mace bested him and disarmed him. As others have mentioned, the book gives a clear picture that Mace was winning the saber fight and Palpatine knew it. So, Palps fell back on his old standby, force lightning. Which Mace reflected back on him. In my view, the force lightning DID disfigure him. As someone else has pointed out, Luceno has gone on record as saying Lucas himself told him this. I also point out another fact that some people are ignoring. When Darth Sidious appears in Hologram form in Phantom Menace, he is not deformed. Why would he take the time to camouflage himself in a Sith "Palpatine suit" when he was acting as Sidious? In all honest, it would have made more sense to remove the glamor to avoid the chance the Nemoidians might recognize him under the hood. Add that to his attempt to restore his looks in Dark Lord, as mentioned before, and I see no other interpretation. Back on topic. As the force lightning was failing him, Palpatine picked up on Anakin's presence. It was at this moment that Palpatine adapted. He turned the situation to his needs. But, I do not believe he planned it out to function like this. EU has set up the idea that Jedi and Sith visions of the future are hazy outlines, not clear visions of exact actions. So, he knew he was going to rise to power and Anakin was going to fall, but he didn't know how. And, let's not forget that his knowledge of this future could easily have altered the future he perceived. But, I just don't see Palpatine as stupid enough to gamble that Anakin would show up at that particular moment and time. Once Palpatine started playing on Anakin's fears and manipulating him, that's when he took control and had the "upper hand". So, in a sense, you could say that he used his defeat in battle to win the war. But, I don't believe that defeat was premeditated. I believe it was a battlefield improvisation that shows how smart and conniving Palpatine really was.
I would like to add my own element to this debate. Vaapad is based on tapping into elements of the Dark Side - anger, rage, etc. Well, I believe Mace was forced to tap much farther into the Dark Side during his battle with Palpatine than he had even attempted before. This was what help him best Palpatine in the saber duel. This corrupted him to an extent. What is my reasoning for this? The ease at which he suddenly changed his stance from "let's take Palpatine prisoner" to "I will end this" by killing Palpatine. Am I the only one who saw the shades of Anakin killing Dooku at the beginning of the film in these actions? Jedi don't murder people. Anakin said that himself. Then, he let Palpatine rationalize it for him. It was the best way to eliminate the threat. It was the only way to win. Hmm ... sounds a whole lot like Mace's speech to Anakin. I think the only reason Mace hesitated to kill Palpatine, other than dramatic license, was his internal struggle with the Dark Side. So, in a way, you could say that, while Mace had the advantage at the start of the fight, he lost it as soon as he let the Dark Side control his actions.
What I am about to say will probably offend more than anything that has come before it but so be it: Star Wars and it's movie sequels/prequels are Art. Yeah, some will claim that "popcorn" flicks are not art, but I don't agree. Thousands of talented people, from computer F/X people to costume designers to actors, etc. up to Lucas himself invested enough creative energy that I consider the works "art". And the best art is interpretive in nature. I look at a Picasso, I take away something personal. You look at the same work, you could see something else entirely. Both points of view are valid and "right".
To be truthful, the question itself is flawed. At which point in time are we deciding who had the upper hand? At the beginning of the fight? After Mace disarmed him? After Anakin enters? What elements are we considering? Just Palpatine's powers of fighting/force or are we including Anakin's manipulation into the equation? Without pinning the debate to more specifics, it's not really a valid discussion.
I am going to share my opinion (opinion Josh, just my OPINION ... j/k). Let me say upfront, it's based on EU and Movie details combined. A lot of people seems to think that George Lucas hates the EU. Most of that stems from an interview with TV Guide back in the early 2000's. Here's the part everyone likes to quote:
Lucas: Oh, sure. They're done outside my little universe.
"There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe - the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."
LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world.
When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one.
Most people look at the terms "intrude" and "parallel" along with the Star Trek reference and assume that means that Lucas hates the EU. But, I don't see it that way. Hell, if Lucas hated the EU, why would he mention Quinlin Vos in ROTS (one of the most notable EU characters created by Dark Horse)? Why would he pay 100's of people to analyze every bit of EU work before it releases for inaccuracies and content? It all makes no sense from that standpoint. After the Clone Wars cartoon came out, and Lucas loved it so much, he was quoted as saying, "the events in the cartoon were canon" to him. To me, he basically was saying, "if I decide to reverse something or contradict something in a future work or project, my work supersedes all previous materials." Even his quote up above seems to be, "these other works fill in the spaces between my movies - the events run parallel to my movies." Maybe that's wrong, but that's how I approach things.
Lets go over a few guidelines - my presumptions if you will:
I really couldn't care less what Nick Gillard thinks. He was a stunt coordinator, not a writer. If the costume designer told you that Palpatine's tunic was made of Cortosis and therefore was impervious to lightsabers, would you accept that as fact?
I accept Vaapad as a real element of the Star Wars universe. It has been cover enough in the Star Wars EU to have credence. It's also included in the official sites Star Wars database, so it's canon to me.
So, with those two caveats out of the way, here's my opinion:
If you are talking about fighting ability, Mace was clearly more powerful than Palpatine. Some of you have stated that Palpatine/Sidious was a master swordsman. No where in the EU or movies is that really explored. Does he kill the other Jedi rather easily? Yes. But I have always interpreted that as a result of his deception. Palpatine's entire career as a Sith is based upon deception and strategy, not brute strength. He's the tactician, whereas Maul, Dooku, Vader were his blunt instruments. The other Jedi did not expect Palpatine to attack them. Look at their reactions, placement of their sabers, etc. Palpatine was a good fighter, but there is no way he could have defeated all 4 Jedi under normal circumstances. He needed the element of surprise. After Mace reacted to his assault and realized what Palpatine was capable of, the element of surprise was gone. It then became a one-on-one saber fight and I don't believe Palpatine could have won under those circumstances.
In my opinion Mace bested him and disarmed him. As others have mentioned, the book gives a clear picture that Mace was winning the saber fight and Palpatine knew it. So, Palps fell back on his old standby, force lightning. Which Mace reflected back on him. In my view, the force lightning DID disfigure him. As someone else has pointed out, Luceno has gone on record as saying Lucas himself told him this. I also point out another fact that some people are ignoring. When Darth Sidious appears in Hologram form in Phantom Menace, he is not deformed. Why would he take the time to camouflage himself in a Sith "Palpatine suit" when he was acting as Sidious? In all honest, it would have made more sense to remove the glamor to avoid the chance the Nemoidians might recognize him under the hood. Add that to his attempt to restore his looks in Dark Lord, as mentioned before, and I see no other interpretation. Back on topic. As the force lightning was failing him, Palpatine picked up on Anakin's presence. It was at this moment that Palpatine adapted. He turned the situation to his needs. But, I do not believe he planned it out to function like this. EU has set up the idea that Jedi and Sith visions of the future are hazy outlines, not clear visions of exact actions. So, he knew he was going to rise to power and Anakin was going to fall, but he didn't know how. And, let's not forget that his knowledge of this future could easily have altered the future he perceived. But, I just don't see Palpatine as stupid enough to gamble that Anakin would show up at that particular moment and time. Once Palpatine started playing on Anakin's fears and manipulating him, that's when he took control and had the "upper hand". So, in a sense, you could say that he used his defeat in battle to win the war. But, I don't believe that defeat was premeditated. I believe it was a battlefield improvisation that shows how smart and conniving Palpatine really was.
I would like to add my own element to this debate. Vaapad is based on tapping into elements of the Dark Side - anger, rage, etc. Well, I believe Mace was forced to tap much farther into the Dark Side during his battle with Palpatine than he had even attempted before. This was what help him best Palpatine in the saber duel. This corrupted him to an extent. What is my reasoning for this? The ease at which he suddenly changed his stance from "let's take Palpatine prisoner" to "I will end this" by killing Palpatine. Am I the only one who saw the shades of Anakin killing Dooku at the beginning of the film in these actions? Jedi don't murder people. Anakin said that himself. Then, he let Palpatine rationalize it for him. It was the best way to eliminate the threat. It was the only way to win. Hmm ... sounds a whole lot like Mace's speech to Anakin. I think the only reason Mace hesitated to kill Palpatine, other than dramatic license, was his internal struggle with the Dark Side. So, in a way, you could say that, while Mace had the advantage at the start of the fight, he lost it as soon as he let the Dark Side control his actions.
Last edited:
lerath666
Super Freak
i can't argue with this post in any way. I like it, and it seems to make the greatest degree of sense to me. Doug, you win the internet. 
DouglasMcc
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i can't argue with this post in any way. I like it, and it seems to make the greatest degree of sense to me. Doug, you win the internet.
Not sure if you are being serious or sarcastic, but I accept either way. Please send me a quarter royalty everytime you log on Lerath ...
DouglasMcc
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Hey Doug
Thanks Kit. Speaking of which, I really wish they hadn't punk'd out your namesake in the matter we are speaking of ... but what's done is done
Customikey
Super Freak
lerath666
Super Freak
i'm serious. No sarcasam at all, I genuinly do approvie of how you see the scene. it covers all corners, and makse a great degree of sense. I will yeild to this, as it makes sense.
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