X-Men: Apocalypse - May 27, 2016

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The Russos didn't set out to adapt "Civil War" and nothing else (thank God as it was a pretty crappy comic)

That "pretty crappy comic" is Marvel's highest selling book ever that everyone and their mother knows about. Its a story in Marvel lore as powerful and recognizable as the Infinity Gauntlet.

For a person who seems to love these comics, I don't understand how you're in complete agreement with a film studio like Disney (one more time, its a film studio) completely wasting the premise of something like Civil War in a Cap film that barely resembles the comic, even if you didn't care for it.
 
Great job darthkistis. :rock :clap :bow

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Trying to explain comics to SNIKT1950 is like watching the trolls try to tell Elsa's parents how to raise her:



Still using Disney related movies to prove your point? Well, you better prepare for the inevitable rant you MOUSE-****-SUCKING SELLOUT WITH **** FOR BRAINS. Ahem...

I see everyones point... MCU has had some amazing films but has also had some run of the mill crap fests.

I think Fox and DC are in the same boat.

The one thing that I think is the biggest issue with MCU is their lack of great villains, which is of course my opinion. I'm hoping that changes with Thanos, or the villains in either (or hopefully all) Guardians 2, Thor 3, Spidey or Black Panther top the villains from the past.

But all of the studios have their issues at the end of the day and none of them are the go-to for CBM films IMO. They have all made great films and I enjoy all of the artistic differences.

Eh, nobody's saying that all the MCU stuff are great, or that all the Fox stuff are bollocks. It's just that there's a certain person around here who can't take a different opinion, and resorts to name-calling. Dissagreeing is one thing, not taking into acount scans and articles, yet clinging onto your personal opinion, using it as fact and insulting others, that's definitely a problem.

PS: Liking the Herc-as-Thor icon!
 
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Still using Disney related movies to prove your point? Well, you better prepare for the inevitable rant you MOUSE-****-SUCKING SELLOUT WITH **** FOR BRAINS. Ahem...



Eh, nobody's saying that all the MCU stuff are great, or that all the Fox stuff are bollocks. It's just that there's a certain person around here who can't take a different opinion, and resorts to name-calling. Dissagreeing is one thing, not taking into acount scans and articles, yet clinging onto your personal opinion, using it as fact and insulting others, that's definitely a problem.

PS: Liking the Herc-as-Thor icon!

Nah, never insulted you on here, but nice attempt to elicit sympathy from others on your part.

Its interesting that you flaunt your love for the comics so much but don't see that I'm the guy saying respect the comics TO DISNEY.

Because that's the real argument here. Alot of comic lovers on here but not enough comic defenders.

This giving a pass to Disney shtick that started after The Avengers is internet poison. Discussions on MCU films always goes sideways because people end up defending Feige and Disney instead of the comics.

"Disney can do no wrong." Bollocks.
 
I see everyones point... MCU has had some amazing films but has also had some run of the mill crap fests.

I think Fox and DC are in the same boat.

The one thing that I think is the biggest issue with MCU is their lack of great villains, which is of course my opinion. I'm hoping that changes with Thanos, or the villains in either (or hopefully all) Guardians 2, Thor 3, Spidey or Black Panther top the villains from the past.

But all of the studios have their issues at the end of the day and none of them are the go-to for CBM films IMO. They have all made great films and I enjoy all of the artistic differences.
Take out the DC reference (unless you're referring to Nolan), and I agree with your overall sentiment. Though I would actually argue that the MCU haven't had a crappy movie yet. I've enjoyed every one. With Fox, I have really disliked a couple, and didn't really enjoy the Wolverine that much. Credit to Marvel Studios, they haven't sunk that low. Though on the other hand, I think the best of the non-Nolan comic films are also from the X-Men franchise and one from Sony.

Also, I've never completely agreed with the consensus view that there aren't good villains in Marvel Studios. I thought Red Skull was fantastic, Loki is better than he is in the comic, and I even liked some of the lesser villains like Tim Roth, Obadiah Stane, and Sam Rockwell, though they had fairly limited roles in the films (which is a warranted criticism IMO). But beyond that, they do seem to be a bit generic. Hopefully Zemo will have an opportunity to go beyond that. But I do worry about Thanos. He seems to roughly have the same MO as the villains in Thor 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers/Avengers 2 (I guess technically he was behind Avengers, and several others in one way or another, but still). Monster threat who wants to destroy planets/the universe isn't really new in Marvel Studios. So what about Thanos really could be all that different? We'll see!

But obviously, Fox is responsible for the best villain of them all in Magneto. Whether it's McKellen or Fassbender, movie Mags has wiped the floor with everybody else thus far.
 
That "pretty crappy comic" is Marvel's highest selling book ever

Not even close. But lets run with this new logic. The Avengers, AoU, Captain America: Civil War, and Iron Man 3 have the highest box office of all superhero films (all of them beating the full TDK trilogy, every X-Men film, etc.) I guess those are the best then huh? Glad that's settled.
 
Three issues of Civil War make the all time Top 10 Highest Selling Marvel Comics list.

If sales equated to quality, then Avengers would be, by far, the highest quality superhero movie yet. Do you agree with that?

I actually read Civil War for the first time fairly recently, and did not care much for the writing at all. It felt unnatural, lots of scenes were forced, the character interactions weren't very good. And I'm a fan of some of Millar's work (Authority), but he's no Warren Ellis. And Ultimates was pretty lackluster across the board.
 
Three issues of Civil War make the all time Top 10 Highest Selling Marvel Comics list.

Hardly. Three Civil War books cracked the Top 10 of comics sold *in the last decade.* And still none of them even cracked the Top 3. If you want to go "all time" then their sales of 370,000 are a joke compared to the 8 million copies sold of X-Men #1 in 1991, 1 million copies of Spawn #1 (guess that's the movie we should all be watching, huh?), 2.5 million copies of Spider-Man #1, 3 million Death of Superman, 5 million copes of X-Force #1, etc. Marketing events and series reboots sell big but they are rarely the most celebrated stories.

And even as far as those "events" go, yeah, the comic version of Civil War pretty much sucked. Nice art though.
 
If sales equated to quality, then Avengers would be, by far, the highest quality superhero movie yet. Do you agree with that?

I actually read Civil War for the first time fairly recently, and did not care much for the writing at all. It felt unnatural, lots of scenes were forced, the character interactions weren't very good. And I'm a fan of some of Millar's work (Authority), but he's no Warren Ellis. And Ultimates was pretty lackluster across the board.

Even though I loved the comic, I never said sales meant quality.

I was making a point to said poster that Civil War is a comics arc everyone versed in Marvel lore would know, so to call a movie "Civil War" and not have it resemble said arc in any way is a huge slap in the face to Marvel comics.

I've said this before, there was no need to call the film Civil War. It was a sales tactic by the studio (like those dark, brooding trailers) to get people in the theater. This could have just been a true Cap 3, but they wanted bigger numbers so they threw in Tony and wasted the title on an inconsequential film.
 
Nah, never insulted you on here, but nice attempt to elicit sympathy from others on your part.

Dunno pal, these seems pretty insulting to me:

Since your brain ain't big enough to grasp what I'm suggesting, here it is in its most simplistic form: [...]

Me: Person with a legitimate point worth looking into.

You: Moron.

The End

Those are from the BvS thread. BTW, good job deleting the originals, thankfully I had them quoted...

Its interesting that you flaunt your love for the comics so much but don't see that I'm the guy saying respect the comics TO DISNEY.

Look pal, you're the guy who ignores the panels and the scans. I brought mine. I borught them now, I brought them last time. Or did you forget your whole "they're totes doing Injustice" rant? Because I remember. You show no comic book knowledge whatsoever. You only rant about the MCU and that's it. You never show scans or articles, you never point to certain stories or issues, you never name writers, all you do is disregard other people's evidence as faulty.

I don't need to justify my love of comics to you. I have a pull-list in this day and age, while living outside of the US. I think that says enough about my "devotion" to them.

Because that's the real argument here. Alot of comic lovers on here but not enough comic defenders.

So just because we enjoy what Marvel's doing, does that mean we're not real fans? Real mature thinking right there. I mean, Class-A job. Teach us how to be "real" fans oh, Holy One. Please, we need your guidance...

This giving a pass to Disney shtick that started after The Avengers is internet poison. Discussions on MCU films always goes sideways because people end up defending Feige and Disney instead of the comics.

Maybe people, dunno, like the films? The comics ain't always great bud. But I guess you wanted to see Nazi Aliens, a racist Captain America and a traitor Black Widow, right? Because the MCU is very influenced by the Ultimate Universe. Lest we forget, Loki as Baron Zemo, Cap's son as Red Skull and Killer Hawkeye. I mean, these are comics as well. These are the source material as well. I mean, who are you to judge which one is the "proper" source material?

"Disney can do no wrong." Bollocks.

Nobody here has said that, but please, go on believing what validates your warped POV...
 
Even though I loved the comic, I never said sales meant quality.

I was making a point to said poster that Civil War is a comics arc everyone versed in Marvel lore would know, so to call a movie "Civil War" and not have it resemble said arc in any way is a huge slap in the face to Marvel comics.

I've said this before, there was no need to call the film Civil War. It was a sales tactic by the studio (like those dark, brooding trailers) to get people in the theater. This could have just been a true Cap 3, but they wanted bigger numbers so they threw in Tony and wasted the title on an inconsequential film.

Buddy, did you open that spoiler tag or are you just choosing to ignore it? The only who knows jack-**** about the Marvel Lore here, is you. I'm posting it again, just in case you "missed" it...

Copy Pasted from a month or so back, from the CW thread. I'm too bored to re-structure it...

Man, this just shows you did not read the comics you're "quoting". So, as a comic fan:

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1) The entirety of the Civil War began from Nitro detonating due to the carelessness of the New Warriors. They were filming a TV-Show, they rushed in and they lost. Nitro detonated and killed about 600 people. I don't see the difference between the catalyst being a school, and the catalyst being an international incident.

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2) The villains in question were already established super-villains that Tony had been amassing alongside Zemo over at Thunderbolts. At the time, they had over 100 imprissoned villains, and only used the deadliest. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, Zemo was creating his "own" Thunderbolts Army in order to win against the Grandmaster, an Elder of the Universe.

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3) The Prison in the Negative Zone was Project #42 from Richards' 100 Ideas Initiative. They were basically 100 Ideas that Richards, Stark and Pym came up with Post-Stanford, in order to make the world a better place. But with all of them being kinda nuts, and Hank Pym being a Skrull in disguise, they went overboard. After the CW had ended, it was left abandoned, and Blastaar took over, which led to Jack Flag joining the GotG.

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4) The casualties you speak of were Black Goliath, Jack O'Lantern and the Jester. The former was killed by Ragnarok, a Thor clone which was created since Thor was dead at the time, fullfilling the prophecy of Ragnarok. He went haywire and killed him. The Jester, Jack O'Lantern and 2 other Z-List villains were killed by the Punisher during his rescue of Spider-Man and inside Cap's hideout. So, yeah, the only "major" death, was equilavent of "the black guy dies first". Yay... Afterwards, Herc smashed his head in.

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5) The fight you all love to say "that was a war!" was still not as brutal, because people were still not really rying to kill each other. All the fights took place in mostly evacuated areas, and the last one, which took place in the city, was halted by Cap as soon as he saw that they were simply fighting just for the hell of it. If they were bloodlusted, he'd have just let Cloak and his team drop the other to their deaths. Not to mention that the final scene with Cap looking as he was gonna kill Tony was straight from the page.

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Here, Sue Storm is in the opposite side of Reed, but as soon as he gets hurt, she rushes to save her husband. So no, she's not "bloodlusted".

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These are all the heroes and villains. Wow, they have Solo, the Shroud, Tigra, Nightawk, etc, etc... I'm sure all of them played a huge part in the comic. Oh, wiat, they didn't! The major characters were Cap, Tony, Vision and the like! Huh, I never would've guessed...

6) Wanna know why Tony was so adamant about the SHRA? Because he and some of his buddies formed a club called "The Illuminati", which was there to "govern all affairs". Black Panther refused to join them, and he was damn right. He stayed out of the conflict and only, in the end, aided Cap.

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Here's a nice read-up on Reed, Hank and Tony: https://goodcomics.comicbookresources...istration-act/

6.5) Still on the Illuminati, these boys went to the Skrull homeworld, wrecked **** up and warned them never to try and invade the Earth again. So, what do the Skrulls do? Abduct Pym, replace him and put him there as a sleeper. His job? Try and divide the Avengers from the inside, hence why "Hank" was so supportive of the SHRA. Thus, CW paved the way for Secret Invasion.

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7) And here we come to the biggest "issue", Cap's Death. Newsflash: Cap didn't die in CW. He died in Fallen Son. Cap didn't die because of the events of Civil War, he died because of the Red Skull and Faustus. That info aside, plans for Cap's death were already in stone, as Brubaker wanted to write Bucky-Cap. CW was just the perfect time. And besides, Cap didn't "die", he got stuck in a space-bullet. The whole deal involved Lukin, Red Skull, Faustus and even Burnside.

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So yeah, here's your precious source material. To translate Civil War correctly, you need:

1) The New Warriors (Nitro can just be a minor, newly introduced villain)
2) The F4 and Negative Zone
3) The Illuminati and the Skrulls
4) Red Skull, Faustus, Doom and the Osborn administration
5) Zemo, his Moonstones and his amry, plus the Elders of the Universe
6) Ragnarok, the event and the clone
7) More minor, D-List characters

Wait, you mean these things don't exist in the MCU? Well, I never would have guessed. But here's my view:

-Stanford = Lagos
-New Warriors = Wanda
-Nitro = Crossbones
-Prison 42 = Raft
-Red Skull/Faustus/Skrulls/outside force which made the war inevitable = Zemo
-Villains = Spider-Man (person/people brought over to turn the tide)

It's not a perfect adaptation you say? Of course it's bloody noy, cause otherwise you'd need 20 damn years of the MCU an God knows how many damn movies. Now, you'll say "they could keep some stuff", which would then bring us to "they're changing stuff". Honest truth? The movie is damn faithful to the comic.

There. You know how sick and ****ing tired I am of "comic book purists" saying they didn't follow the source material, pretending that just remembering Cap on the stairs counts? Here's your gosh-darn source material. You want that? You want all this convulted storyline with branches everywhere? Be my guest. But do not tell me that there's no "resemblance" to the comic.

Just admit that you wanted Cap to die. Well, tough luck, the protagonists never die, be it comics or movies. Guess we should campaign for Batman to die in JL ala Final Crisis and have him return through time as Batman-Pirate, Batman-Cabeman and Batman-Knight... Either, boom, here are your scans, here's your source material, here's everything!

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You show no comic book knowledge whatsoever. You only rant about the MCU and that's it. You never show scans or articles,

In fairness he did show that one scan of Cap dying in Brubaker's book as reason why the MCU should have included it in a film adaptation of a different story written by Mark Millar.
 
eh I loved the civil war comic book, don't see what's so bad about it. ANYYWHOOO for those who prefer to talk about the x-men, I've been looking for a nice thick trade to read as I just finished the first part of age of apocalypse and wanted a different story to read (a complete one that I could actually finish without buying 100 books) and after doing some googling I picked up the messiah complex. Really enjoying it so far, the art is really striking. Is there anything I should know before continuing reading?
 
Dunno pal, that seems pretty insulting to me. Those are from the BvS thread. BTW, good job deleting the originals, thankfully I had them quoted...

I'm not your pal, and they're from the Justice League thread.

Never deleted anything. So try again on whatever failed attempt that was to make me look bad.

In summary, debating you always ends with you crying, so let's stop now while we're ahead.

I'll ignore you from here on out and you can do the same for me.

Cheers.
 
In fairness he did show that one scan of Cap dying in Brubaker's book as reason why the MCU should have included it in a film adaptation of Mark Millar's completely separate story.

While ignoring the fact that Brubaker planned all this years before. The guy has a major hard-on for Bucky, which is natural, since he's essentially his "OC" after bringing him back. Buck becoming Cap was always his plan. And even then, brubaker stayed on for another volume of Cap AND wrote the Winter Soldier solo. Cap's death wasn't part of CW, it was part of Brubaker's story. But yeah, "scans out of context" is a great strategy... I mean, Civil War worked so well, that Tony got mindwiped, Pym was revealed as a Skrull and Cap was sent trekking through time and space. Oh, and then there's OMD, which was more of an editorial thing but hey, if Cap's death counts as part of CW, so does OMD... Eh, at least we got Dark Reign and Secret Warriors out of it...
 
I'm not your pal, and they're from the Justice League thread.

Whaaa- I thought you were my best bud, buddy... And no, they're from the BvS thread, Page 3845. You're welcome to check... Either way, you insulted me back then. And you've done it to other users, as well. Those are some pretty heavy insults as well. "Moron", "Ain't got a big enough brain". These ain't the kind of words that showcase a good debater...

Never deleted anything. So try again on whatever failed attempt that was to make me look bad.

I don't need to do that pal, you do that all by yourself...

In summary, debating you always ends with you crying, so let's stop now while we're ahead.

Dunno, pal, it seems to me it's the opposite here. I mean, I'm the one with the scans, the articles, the quotes and the like, while you're the one with "hollier than thou" attitude, no scans, and a sense of superiority. I've got proof to back up my claims, what do you have? I don't see any "debating" here, just me offering evidence and being a good sport while you only "allude" to your "evidence". That ain't debating...

I'll ignore you from here on out and you can do the same for me.

Cheers.

Yeah, well, see, now, that's not easy. You disrupt threads, you call out people, you call them sellouts just because of a different opinion. It seems to me it's you who should change your a ways a bit.
 
eh I loved the civil war comic book, don't see what's so bad about it. ANYYWHOOO for those who prefer to talk about the x-men, I've been looking for a nice thick trade to read as I just finished the first part of age of apocalypse and wanted a different story to read (a complete one that I could actually finish without buying 100 books) and after doing some googling I picked up the messiah complex. Really enjoying it so far, the art is really striking. Is there anything I should know before continuing reading?

Civil War was a great comic.

Of course these days people say it wasn't in an effort to excuse Disney for butchering it onscreen.

To those people I say "Why would Disney even adapt such a bad comic then?"

Its an endless argument.
 
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