Zack Snyder's Justice League

[The Buffinator]

Stop making me feel conflicted! You're like a Sith lord.

Good! Good! I can feel your anger.

 

[The Buffinator]

View attachment 509478

 

[e30ernest]

Second watch done. I think I like it better this time around. The Aquaman Sweater Sniffing Cult and the Wonder Woman murder spree in front of kids scene are still both horribly cringey for me though.

 

[jal76]

Feige is the visionary behind the interconnected Marvel universe, but part of his genius has been to recognize talent and then let them go to work. Sure, he's undoubtedly stepped in when someone's ideas don't jive with his overall plan (see Edgar Wright & Ant-Man), but you're just being disingenuous by not crediting Whedon for his writing and directing contributions on the first two Avengers films. Hell, back then Feige was probably doing cartwheels after landing someone with Whedon's rep within the comic/sci-fi community. Before The Avengers exploded onto the scene not many people even knew the name Kevin Feige lol.

So I suppose in your eyes the Russo brothers don't deserve any credit either? How about Ryan Coogler on Black Panther? Your apparent hatred for Whedon is blinding you to the facts. I'll grant you that he's done nothing of note since AoU, but your revisionist history is laughable.

I don?t hate Joss Whedon. I happen to be sane, and like most sane people I don?t think I?ve ever actually hated another human in my life.
Due to my pesky sanity I am actually incapable of hating a complete stranger over a movie that they made.
But if that?s your thing, good luck with it.
I simply think that Whedon is like that rock band that used to be really great a decade ago and now all of their new stuff is terrible, so terrible that it makes you start to question their old songs that you loved, so you wish they would just go away. That?s all.
As for Feige and creative control, like I mentioned, it?s situational. I think he probably didn?t think that it would go over well if word got out that he was telling Ryan Coogler how to make a movie about African Kings and Queens, so yeah, Coogler probably enjoyed a bit more freedom than Whedon did. Russo brothers proved themselves with WS so were probably given some leeway with IW.
I?m skeptical that Feige saw something in Serenity and it?s dismal box office returns that convinced him that Whedon was a guaranteed success who required no oversight whatsoever.

 

[The Buffinator]

I don?t hate Joss Whedon. I happen to be sane, and like most sane people I don?t think I?ve ever actually hated another human in my life.
Due to my pesky sanity I am actually incapable of hating a complete stranger over a movie that they made.
But if that?s your thing, good luck with it.
I simply think that Whedon is like that rock band that used to be really great a decade ago and now all of their new stuff is terrible, so terrible that it makes you start to question their old songs that you loved, so you wish they would just go away. That?s all.
As for Feige and creative control, like I mentioned, it?s situational. I think he probably didn?t think that it would go over well if word got out that he was telling Ryan Coogler how to make a movie about African Kings and Queens, so yeah, Coogler probably enjoyed a bit more freedom than Whedon did. Russo brothers proved themselves with WS so were probably given some leeway with IW.
I?m skeptical that Feige saw something in Serenity and it?s dismal box office returns that convinced him that Whedon was a guaranteed success who required no oversight whatsoever.

Well that's good to hear. Your dismissive/contemptuous comments about Whedon suggested otherwise, but then you probably think I hate Snyder too and that's not the case either. I like a lot of what he brings to the table, but IMO he needs better writers as well as a strong executive producer to rein him in when he gets overly indulgent. You obviously see things differently and that's fine by me.

I think your rock band analogy is quite apt, as it seems most artistic types tend to have their greatest bursts of creativity while they're younger and open to all possibilities, then eventually that fire smoulders / goes out due to any number of reasons (the demands of fame, complacency, life's distractions, etc.). Plus as time passes and new generations take over their work becomes less relevant. It's inevitable.

 

[ironwez20]

A few years ago people loved the guy and now everyone hates him. They love you til they don?t

Now people love snyder after hating him. So weird.

 

[ajp4mgs]

I finished my second viewing, and tried to make better sense of the Darkseid plot this time because Junkion's posts about forgetting where Earth was (and that it had the Anti-Life Equation) had been bugging me. After this second viewing, I think the whole thing might actually make enough sense just by using a few simple assumptions.

Darkseid and his minions use Boom Tubes for interstellar travel, and in the comics that requires a Mother Box. So, Darkseid and his army might've gotten to Earth those thousands of years prior only via Boom Tube. In other words, they wouldn't have flown to Earth by way of those ships that they escape in after being defeated by the Old Gods. Those ships could've just been sent through the Boom Tube as well for the purpose of being troop carriers and weaponry, rather than as transportation.

Upon defeat, and with all three of Darkseid's Mother Boxes going inert and remaining on Earth, they couldn't take their ruler back by way of a Boom Tube. But the trip back to the Fourth World (and Apokolips specifically) should've been impossible just using those ships. Therefore, the fact that they eventually made it back at all might mean that there was some mystical assistance involved that we'll just never know about. Or it involves something weird about doing things "the old way."

This scenario would make it just as difficult to then return to Earth (or even know where it is) without an active Mother Box to generate a Boom Tube. Only when Superman's death awakened the Mother Boxes was the portal to Earth created, and Steppenwolf was dispatched to go through it. Since he hadn't been to Earth with Darkseid the first time (because Steppenwolf had been banished/cut off in punishment), he wouldn't have known about Darkseid discovering the Anti-Life Equation there all those years ago.

Not the most streamlined and well-explained plot points, but at least not really a plot hole as far as I can tell. Why the banished/punished Steppenwolf was the one sent to follow the Boom Tube is what I can't figure out.

 

[jye4ever]

Nope too convoluted.

next

 

[The Buffinator]

I finished my second viewing, and tried to make better sense of the Darkseid plot this time because Junkion's posts about forgetting where Earth was (and that it had the Anti-Life Equation) had been bugging me. After this second viewing, I think the whole thing might actually make enough sense just by using a few simple assumptions.

Darkseid and his minions use Boom Tubes for interstellar travel, and in the comics that requires a Mother Box. So, Darkseid and his army might've gotten to Earth those thousands of years prior only via Boom Tube. In other words, they wouldn't have flown to Earth by way of those ships that they escape in after being defeated by the Old Gods. Those ships could've just been sent through the Boom Tube as well for the purpose of being troop carriers and weaponry, rather than as transportation.

Upon defeat, and with all three of Darkseid's Mother Boxes going inert and remaining on Earth, they couldn't take their ruler back by way of a Boom Tube. But the trip back to the Fourth World (and Apokolips specifically) should've been impossible just using those ships. Therefore, the fact that they eventually made it back at all might mean that there was some mystical assistance involved that we'll just never know about. Or it involves something weird about doing things "the old way."

This scenario would make it just as difficult to then return to Earth (or even know where it is) without an active Mother Box to generate a Boom Tube. Only when Superman's death awakened the Mother Boxes was the portal to Earth created, and Steppenwolf was dispatched to go through it. Since he hadn't been to Earth with Darkseid the first time (because Steppenwolf had been banished/cut off in punishment), he wouldn't have known about Darkseid discovering the Anti-Life Equation there all those years ago.

Not the most streamlined and well-explained plot points, but at least not really a plot hole as far as I can tell. Why the banished/punished Steppenwolf was the one sent to follow the Boom Tube is what I can't figure out.

You know, I didn't have a problem with their traveling to and from Earth UNTIL I read your explanation. Stop helping!

I didn't think their ability to travel through worm holes ("boom tubes?') required mother boxes - I figured they had that capability as well as the ability to detect a MB's energy signature via long range scanners. It's not as if they had one on hand in order to initiate opening a worm hole to send Steppenwolf - all 3 were on Earth.

 

[The Buffinator]

Also...

 

[jye4ever]

What is a 3 Doors Down lol

 

[ajp4mgs]

Nope too convoluted.

next

You know, I didn't have a problem with their traveling to and from Earth UNTIL I read your explanation. Stop helping!

I didn't think their ability to travel through worm holes ("boom tubes?') required mother boxes - I figured they had that capability as well as the ability to detect a MB's energy signature via long range scanners. It's not as if they had one on hand in order to initiate opening a worm hole to send Steppenwolf - all 3 were on Earth.

Hey, it works for me.

Boom Tubes require a Mother Box in the comics. All the Boom Tubes we see in the movie happen *after* the Mother Boxes awaken. To me, that makes it possible that the comics and Snyderverse have similar logistics for interstellar travel. When Darkseid mentions doing it the old way, that must mean some reason it can't be done the "new way." Maybe this is what it is.

Just throwing it out there because I don't like the notion of Darkseid being able to travel to Earth via sophisticated starships and then just forgetting how to get there. I'll take the lesser of two evils, no matter how convoluted it may seem (which isn't all that convoluted to me, but I make a mess when trying to explain things).

 

[The Buffinator]

Hey, it works for me.

Boom Tubes require a Mother Box in the comics. All the Boom Tubes we see in the movie happen *after* the Mother Boxes awaken. To me, that makes it possible that the comics and Snyderverse have similar logistics for interstellar travel. When Darkseid mentions doing it the old way, that must mean some reason it can't be done the "new way." Maybe this is what it is.

Just throwing it out there because I don't like the notion of Darkseid being able to travel to Earth via sophisticated starships and then just forgetting how to get there. I'll take the lesser of two evils, no matter how convoluted it may seem (which isn't all that convoluted to me, but I make a mess when trying to explain things).

The part of your explanation that I don't get is what tethers the Boom Tube at the Darkseid end? Is it like ET phoning home - i.e., the MBs are products of Apokolips and are preprogrammed to signal their homeworld when awakened? If so that would explain why they don't know how to get to Earth, but it would raise questions about the stuff they DO know about it, like the fact that there were no Lanterns or Kryptonians there to defend it.

Edit: Wasn't it actually the Unity that was needed for the Boom Tube? The MBs were still present, they'd just gone dormant after being separated.

 

[jye4ever]

Hey, it works for me.

Boom Tubes require a Mother Box in the comics. All the Boom Tubes we see in the movie happen *after* the Mother Boxes awaken. To me, that makes it possible that the comics and Snyderverse have similar logistics for interstellar travel. When Darkseid mentions doing it the old way, that must mean some reason it can't be done the "new way." Maybe this is what it is.

Just throwing it out there because I don't like the notion of Darkseid being able to travel to Earth via sophisticated starships and then just forgetting how to get there. I'll take the lesser of two evils, no matter how convoluted it may seem (which isn't all that convoluted to me, but I make a mess when trying to explain things).

I thought old ways meant space ships lol

 

[Prime Clone]

IIRC Snyder was quoted as saying that he left in part because he simply didn't have the energy to keep fighting for his vision of the movie, so that and his daughter's death were why he decided to leave. If he's stayed I think WB still would have eventually forced a parting of the ways over "creative differences", so no I don't think it would have played out much differently.

If only the announcement that Whedon was only brought on to help with the script was true. If they actually collaborated on it I think it could have been amazing, what with Zack's visuals & action scenes and Joss's ability to construct a tight narrative. The two of them together probably could have convinced the suits that a 2hr 30min to 2hr 45min run time was required. The result probably would have rivaled IW in terms of quality, and we'd now be discussing our theories for the COVID delayed JL2 release this summer. If only...

Yes, that would be a nice alternative reality.

Where the Snyder die hards start to lose me is with them saying that the Batman Joker show down in ZSJL is the most epic showdown between the two characters ever

sigh

It's close.

 

[ajp4mgs]

The part of your explanation that I don't get is what tethers the Boom Tube at the Darkseid end? Is it like ET phoning home - i.e., the MBs are products of Apokolips and are preprogrammed to signal their homeworld when awakened? If so that would explain why they don't know how to get to Earth, but it would raise questions about the stuff they DO know about it, like the fact that there were no Lanterns or Kryptonians there to defend it.

First of all, we need to keep in mind that the Mother Boxes are sentient. They can initiate activity on their own. And I do think that the MB in the movie is what is initiating the Boom Tube.

The part about no Lanterns makes sense because every sector of the galaxy has a dedicated Green Lantern to help protect it. Darkseid and his crew would've been encountering them on other planets. When Steppenwolf reports to Desaad that Earth has no Lantern, he's using two Mother Boxes to communicate back to Apokolips in the first place. So, it could be as simple as using that same tech to scan for Lantern energy signatures.

Or, he could've also made a safe assumption about no Lantern on his own... based on the fact that he arrived via a Boom Tube (not exactly inconspicuous ) and wasn't eventually confronted by one.

As for mentioning that there's no Kryptonian, that one confused me right from the first viewing. I don't understand why Desaad would expect a Kryptonian to be protecting Earth, so I have no idea how or why that came up from Steppenwolf. That's something I remain totally lost about.

Edit: Wasn't it actually the Unity that was needed for the Boom Tube? The MBs were still present, they'd just gone dormant after being separated.

Unity was needed for terraforming Earth (or any planet) into a new version of Apokolips. That's Darkseid's goal. Unity of the Mother Boxes would allow this terraforming, and would enable utilization of the Anti-Life Equation.

In the comics, a Mother Box can open a Boom Tube portal on its own; no unification necessary. The same seems true in ZSJL.

I thought old ways meant space ships lol

Yes! That's the point: space ships instead of a Boom Tube. Meaning navigation rather than instant travel via wormhole portal.

Could also involve other "old school" means of destruction upon arrival on Earth.

 

[jye4ever]

Ok I approve of your theory

 

[Khev]

Actually didn't Wonder Woman say that Darkseid and his minions were "from another universe?" That to me implies another dimension, and with reference to "controlling the Multiverse" later in the film suddenly I'm realizing that them losing track of Earth doesn't seem so far fetched if we're talking a needle in a potentially infinite number of haystacks.

Also what is a "Boom Tube"? Those glowy cylinders that Steppenwolf would teleport around in?

And I took his "no Kryptonians" line as simply making reference that Earth *had* a protector that could have stood up to him, not that he automatically expected there to be one on every world.

 

[jye4ever]

What made them know that a kryptonian being near a yellow sun would make them powerful.

Last time they were on earth Superman didn’t exist

 

[Khev]

What made them know that a kryptonian being near a yellow sun would make them powerful.

Last time they were on earth Superman didn’t exist

If Superman's death is what woke up the Mother Boxes why didn't they call to Steppenwolf/Darkseid in the thousands of years prior to Clark's arrival?