Zack Snyder's Justice League

[a-dev]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

It's almost impossible not to make Superman boring for a modern audience. He can't fight anyone realistically because people complain about the destruction if he does have cool fights. If he just flies around and picks up stuff like in the old films or Superman Returns, most people call it boring, and I agree it's super boring. He also can't kill anyone or anything or else it's also a problem. He also can't have personal problems or any conflict or else he's emo or nOT SuPeRmaN! He's too holy of a character, so I think it's best to keep Superman in the Justice Leauge movies in a reduced role like Hulk in the MCU, where he just smiles, do some cool stuff and that's it. Anything deeper than that and people have a problem with Superman.

I don't have a problem with him having Super-fights that wreak havoc - it just didn't sit well with me that it happened in his origin movie, that this was his introduction to the world. If MoS had been a sequel to Superman Returns it all would have been completely acceptable to me. And the use of Doomsday and the death of Superman story in BvS would have been more palatable aswell because it would have been an established and well-loved Superman. It all would have had much more oomph.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

Blame Warner, not Snyder. Pretty sure he wanted a more gradual arc but the studio couldn't wait for its version of Avengers.

 

[xipotec]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

It's almost impossible not to make Superman boring for a modern audience. He can't fight anyone realistically because people complain about the destruction if he does have cool fights. If he just flies around and picks up stuff like in the old films or Superman Returns, most people call it boring, and I agree it's super boring. He also can't kill anyone or anything or else it's also a problem. He also can't have personal problems or any conflict or else he's emo or nOT SuPeRmaN! He's too holy of a character, so I think it's best to keep Superman in the Justice Leauge movies in a reduced role like Hulk in the MCU, where he just smiles, do some cool stuff and that's it. Anything deeper than that and people have a problem with Superman.

This exactly.

Superman is boring in the comics also. I mean what?s the challenge? The only interesting thing about Supermen is his internal conflict. Should he get involved? And what does getting involved do?

The only interesting DC book with him in it is Injustice. And we have yet to see a decent telling of that tale. That also a story not suited for a single film.


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[The Buffinator]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I don't have a problem with him having Super-fights that wreak havoc - it just didn't sit well with me that it happened in his origin movie, that this was his introduction to the world. If MoS had been a sequel to Superman Returns it all would have been completely acceptable to me. And the use of Doomsday and the death of Superman story in BvS would have been more palatable aswell because it would have been an established and well-loved Superman. It all would have had much more oomph.

Blame Warner, not Snyder. Pretty sure he wanted a more gradual arc but the studio couldn't wait for its version of Avengers.

I'm with a-dev on this one. Unlike in The Avengers (where Cap had them evacuate the city center), there was no consideration given to the loss of innocent life as a result of his final battle with Zod in MoS. He'd already stopped the terraforming machines, so Clark could/should have steered their battle away from populated areas. That simple change would have made him more heroic and MoS a better movie. No, choosing to stage their fight in the city (and destroying half of it) was on Snyder. Now the rushed character development and convoluted story of BvS was probably Warner - no doubt Snyder wanted it to be a five hour movie.

 

[hellgrammite00]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I'm with a-dev on this one. Unlike in The Avengers (where Cap had them evacuate the city center), there was no consideration given to the loss of innocent life as a result of his final battle with Zod in MoS. He'd already stopped the terraforming machines, so Clark could/should have steered their battle away from populated areas. That simple change would have made him more heroic and MoS a better movie. No, choosing to stage their fight in the city (and destroying half of it) was on Snyder. Now the rushed character development and convoluted story of BvS was probably Warner - no doubt Snyder wanted it to be a five hour movie.

Snyder had Superman kill more innocent people in MoS then the Zod and his army. And then in BvS the city builds a statue to Superman to honor him. Yeah right.

I mean there is so much better content for DC then the live action stuff right now.

 

[ironwez20]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I?m not a superman fan and I know how to make a movie of him. Give into his cheesiness, make him this good Boy Scout apple pie American guy that?s it?s almost a parody and people call him out on it. Make him aspire to be a hero cause he just wants to be a hero.

If marvel can make captain America work then superman can .

 

[ZE_501]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I?m not a superman fan and I know how to make a movie of him. Give into his cheesiness, make him this good Boy Scout apple pie American guy that?s it?s almost a parody and people call him out on it. Make him aspire to be a hero cause he just wants to be a hero.

If marvel can make captain America work then superman can .

Agreed. You can still have complexity and conflict -- quite a lot of it in our currently divided and comically belligerent culture -- without making Superman himself dark. Superman is the hopelessly naive straight man* vs. the Twitter hordes.

*I mean that in the comedic sense, nothing to do with orientation.

 

[ZE_501]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I'm with a-dev on this one. Unlike in The Avengers (where Cap had them evacuate the city center), there was no consideration given to the loss of innocent life as a result of his final battle with Zod in MoS. He'd already stopped the terraforming machines, so Clark could/should have steered their battle away from populated areas. That simple change would have made him more heroic and MoS a better movie.

I've seen it twice now(?) and don't think MoS was as bad as people made out, but there are three massive flaws IMO:

• Pointlessly suicidal dad and Clark letting it happen.
• Supes allowing the fight to continue in the city.
• Overly long, overly CG end fight is boring.

Without those three anti-Superman events, it would have been a very solid film.

 

[Bravomite]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

Superman is much more difficult to write a good story for than batman. Even though I way prefer superman as a character, my comic book collection has many more batman issues than superman because most superman stories are fairly lame, poorly thought out and try to match him up and with an equally impossibly strong villain to punch.

Writers for superman seem struggle to come up with any meaningful threats and situations for him to tackle. How do you make an invulnerable god vulnerable ... the answer has to be through his humanity. Man of steel did get that right partially having him make a morale decision to choose between Krypton and his adoptive planet Earth, that was a good idea.

I agree that superman is a lot like Captain America in that both always strive to do the right thing, they each have a strong moral compass and will not compromise their beliefs (will never cross that line). Cap is easier to write though because he is 'just' a super soldier and has physical weaknesses. Whereas superman is only truly vulnerable because he cares for people, for Jimmy, for Lois and yes 'Martha' 'Why did you say that name!'. You don't threaten superman, you threaten his world, his adopted people, his values and his family. Superman is best when he has an intelligent villain.

As mentioned, I think Man of steel did get a lot of this right but it struggled with the following aspects:
(1) Kal-el was too slow to show his love for humanity (it was hard to buy);
(2) it needed to have him save people before the final showdown with Zod.
(3) he should not be questioning why he should help humanity, it is who he is (perhaps beyond Jonathan and Martha teaching him right from wrong as a kid). Instead have others (like Lois or reporters) question why he does it when the world as a whole and the media seem so ready to condemn him as a threat like the other kryptonians. What makes him do it, why is he different to them? We know why as the audience, but the people in Zac's cynical DC world don't.
(3) It didn't raise the stakes enough in the final battle with the actual people that Clark Kent cared about i.e. Lois, his mother - the threat never felt credible to them directly. They are a bigger weakness to him than kryptonite. Zod (as a genius general) and should have looked to exploit this weakness more.
(4) as others have said, have superman actively trying to save people during the final showdown with Zod at the expense of his advantage in the clash or even to his detriment.
(5) don't have him choose to kill Zod! Even if it is the logical option that everyone else would take in that situation, Superman would find a way to do it differently.

The death and birth of superman is (in my opinion) a poor superman arc, as is the dark knight returns (a good one to show an unhinged oldman bruce sure but not much of a showcase for superman). Both very poor choices as follow ups to the man of steel and i suspect that these were dictated to Snyder rather than him chose to re-tell them so soon.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I?m not a superman fan and I know how to make a movie of him. Give into his cheesiness, make him this good Boy Scout apple pie American guy that?s it?s almost a parody and people call him out on it. Make him aspire to be a hero cause he just wants to be a hero.

If marvel can make captain America work then superman can .

Cap America kills people, lies to Tony about his parent's death, went against Shield, crashed a bunch of flying ships full of people, became a wanted criminal....he's far from a boy scout when compared to the "ideal Superman." His heart is on the right place, but people don't hold it against him when he does shady things. If a modern Sups did any of that, critics would say Christopher Reeve never made mistakes....because Superman is infallible.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I've seen it twice now(?) and don't think MoS was as bad as people made out, but there are three massive flaws IMO:

• Pointlessly suicidal dad and Clark letting it happen.
• Supes allowing the fight to continue in the city.
• Overly long, overly CG end fight is boring.

Without those three anti-Superman events, it would have been a very solid film.

I would add having Jor EL beat Zod in a fight in the first 10 minutes of the film and Superman kissing Lois on ground zero with all that destruction around.

As for the fight in the city, I just have one problem, and that's when Zod throws the truck at Sups and he jumps over it and the truck explodes behind him. Superman wouldn't just jump over it and let it explode a building, he would stop the truck, but Snyder is a little boy that likes COOL STUFF like explosions. Other than that, it was the villains doing all the destruction and I don't know how Superman could have stopped it or taken the fight somewhere else, when the villains were literally trying to destroy the earth.

 

[hellgrammite00]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I would add having Jor EL beat Zod in a fight in the first 10 minutes of the film and Superman kissing Lois on ground zero with all that destruction around.

As for the fight in the city, I just have one problem, and that's when Zod throws the truck at Sups and he jumps over it and the truck explodes behind him. Superman wouldn't just jump over it and let it explode a building, he would stop the truck, but Snyder is a little boy that likes COOL STUFF like explosions. Other than that, it was the villains doing all the destruction and I don't know how Superman could have stopped it or taken the fight somewhere else, when the villains were literally trying to destroy the earth.

There is also the awkward ending when Superman destroys that drone, and basically infers he is above the law, and will do things on his own terms. The general says we have a right to take precautions, which Superman dismisses.

Christoper Nolan produced this film, so he might have been able to temper back Snyder just a little to give us MoS. By BvS, it was full Snyder, and his wife was the main producer.

I can't really blame Snyder, because Warner's is the one that gave a guy like this the power to make pretty crappy films. I think during the start of Justice League they fully realized their mistake, but didn't know how to handle it.

BvS feels like a Michael Bay film except you remove the T&A, and insert the dark energy that Toby Maguire unleashed in Spider-Man 3...

Snyder should have directed a few episodes of The Boys. I think it would fit him better.

Blade is better than MoS and BvS IMHO

 

[ZE_501]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I would add having Jor EL beat Zod in a fight in the first 10 minutes of the film and Superman kissing Lois on ground zero with all that destruction around.

As for the fight in the city, I just have one problem, and that's when Zod throws the truck at Sups and he jumps over it and the truck explodes behind him. Superman wouldn't just jump over it and let it explode a building, he would stop the truck, but Snyder is a little boy that likes COOL STUFF like explosions. Other than that, it was the villains doing all the destruction and I don't know how Superman could have stopped it or taken the fight somewhere else, when the villains were literally trying to destroy the earth.

Well, that's the script painting him into a corner to an extent, but it seems to be his standard operating procedure in the comics to lure assailants away from populated areas. Problematic when they would (logically) conclude that's the best place to fight him due to his concerns for collateral damage, but that's not really what happened in the film as I recall.

 

[ZE_501]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

There is also the awkward ending when Superman destroys that drone, and basically infers he is above the law, and will do things on his own terms. The general says we have a right to take precautions, which Superman dismisses.

That could be Edge-y Modern Superman taking his privacy seriously, but it's still property damage. Like smashing a cop car for driving past your house.

 

[Prime Clone]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

I've seen it twice now(?) and don't think MoS was as bad as people made out, but there are three massive flaws IMO:

• Pointlessly suicidal dad and Clark letting it happen.
  [*]Supes allowing the fight to continue in the city.
• Overly long, overly CG end fight is boring.

Without those three anti-Superman events, it would have been a very solid film.

Don't know how much of it was Supes and how much of it was Zod. Zod obviously wanted to maximise loss of life, Supes obviously had to stop him.

The Donnerverse had the luxury of the Kyptonian trio stopping their rampage when Supes flew away.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

There is also the awkward ending when Superman destroys that drone, and basically infers he is above the law, and will do things on his own terms. The general says we have a right to take precautions, which Superman dismisses.

Christoper Nolan produced this film, so he might have been able to temper back Snyder just a little to give us MoS. By BvS, it was full Snyder, and his wife was the main producer.

I can't really blame Snyder, because Warner's is the one that gave a guy like this the power to make pretty crappy films. I think during the start of Justice League they fully realized their mistake, but didn't know how to handle it.

BvS feels like a Michael Bay film except you remove the T&A, and insert the dark energy that Toby Maguire unleashed in Spider-Man 3...

Snyder should have directed a few episodes of The Boys. I think it would fit him better.

Blade is better than MoS and BvS IMHO

Oh yeah, I forgot about the drone. Another explosion. Imagine that same scene handled by a better filmmaker, we see the military trucks, cut to their POV, and we see the drone perfectly fine on the ground, then we see Sups in the middle of the road. Or why not just have Sups be there leaning next to it waiting or holding it with one arm...but no, he had to destroy it.

 

[hellgrammite00]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

Oh yeah, I forgot about the drone. Another explosion. Imagine that same scene handled by a better filmmaker, we see the military trucks, cut to their POV, and we see the drone perfectly fine on the ground, then we see Sups in the middle of the road. Or why not just have Sups be there leaning next to it waiting or holding it with one arm...but no, he had to destroy it. ��

If you really think about it, Superman in Snyder verse is more like Homelander from The Boys than his comic book counterpart. Explosions, reckless damage, neck snaps....

 

[ZE_501]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

Oh yeah, I forgot about the drone. Another explosion. Imagine that same scene handled by a better filmmaker, we see the military trucks, cut to their POV, and we see the drone perfectly fine on the ground, then we see Sups in the middle of the road. Or why not just have Sups be there leaning next to it waiting or holding it with one arm...but no, he had to destroy it. ��

That was a perfect opportunity for him to give 'em a gosh-darn-it grin and hand them their equipment back.

"Good morning! I think you misplaced this!"

Instead of trashing expensive government equipment like a grim warning.

 

[hellgrammite00]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

That was a perfect opportunity for him to give 'em a gosh-darn-it grin and hand them their equipment back.

"Good morning! I think you misplaced this!"

Instead of trashing expensive government equipment like a grim warning.

Your not thinking violent and explosive enough....

 

[ironwez20]

Re: Zack Snyder's Justice League coming in 2021

Cap America kills people, lies to Tony about his parent's death, went against Shield, crashed a bunch of flying ships full of people, became a wanted criminal....he's far from a boy scout when compared to the "ideal Superman." His heart is on the right place, but people don't hold it against him when he does shady things. If a modern Sups did any of that, critics would say Christopher Reeve never made mistakes....because Superman is infallible.

See the thing is cap is a soldier. That?s fine he kills people. Superman is made to be the perfect virtuous hero who doesn?t mess up. When I say Boy Scout I mean cap usually is usually the American way hero but will get his hands dirty. Superman always looks to do good and never wants to destroy or kill