Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[Alatar]

Alatar loves Snyder and, despite his eloquent manner, often can't see the forest for the trees. It's fine. The generic response that "everything's been done" is often used as an excuse for the unoriginal.

I mean no disrespect to Alatar, he's always been nice, thoughtful and well-spoken, so I hope the above isn't read as harshly as it may sound.

We‘re good my man, the respect is mutual! Diversity of opinion is a good thing.

 

[Wor-Gar]

You're a good man, Alatar.

 

[histrionics]

Sci-Fi Fantasy has become so common, derivative and tedious. It all looks like Star Wars. All of it (as Han would say)! We're so overdue for the next Great Leap (like Star Wars did back in 1977) to blow us all away... but I fear we're still a decade or two away from that innovation.

Can that even happen now? Sometimes a medium, genre or style hits a kind of critical mass where everything has been done. Innovation is followed by repetition and tedium and we're left settling into a lifetime of tropes. Notwithstanding the fact that cinematic storytelling has changed over the past quarter-century so even if we're given "innovation" anywhere it's tempered with derivative storytelling that renders anything new to feel merely familiar again.

Northrop Frye wrote about this in "The Educated Imagination", where he explained that every form of literary fiction (i.e. drama, comedy) has been done and perfected and has a functional script to its form. It can be a tough pill to swallow in the academic and imaginative sense - to believe that there can't be anything new - but it's actually quite true. History is sometimes difficult to break from, or break through, to find true idealized rogue innovation. To be fair, any and all sci-fi films we think of as "innovative" weren't and tended to borrow heavily from the past. We're merely seeing a long lineage of familiar and relatable storytelling, some done better and more thrilling than others. Most films we think of as innovative where simply "different" and fresh and likely a mix of the right things at the right time, like a perfect storm, that suggested a new typology. Star Wars did that and we're still seeing that form repeated today.

The last time a sci-fi film felt somewhat unique and different to me was when I watched District 9. What was that, like over a decade ago? No one since has picked up on what that film did. It was fresh and different, but then the last act of that film turned into an all too familiar glorified video game. Didn't really alter the path of sci-fi cinema.

 

[Rotfish]

This is why I'm looking forward to Cavill's Warhammer 40K project. That's a particular flavor of sci-fi fantasy we don't see much of in the film world.

 

[Wor-Gar]

a mix of the right things at the right time, like a perfect storm,

All things ultimately come down to that.

However, I don't subscribe to the theory that every story has been told. I think that's nonsense unless you are condensing a fully developed story down to its base essence. Yes, all 'shoes' are shoes, but there is an endless amount of shoes to be worn. I do believe there are familiar structures that people tend to default to and rely on. Also, the bigger part of the problem, especially at certain times like now, is that "the powers that be" want things that are quantifiable and want things that are easily recognizable. They are selling 'seats' or 'clicks', that is all. Innovation is difficult to sell. And most of the time, it does not. So its risky.

Yes, we all know how the elements that make up Star Wars were not new or truly innovative, just a lot of borrowed ideas slammed together in a new way. But in its day, at its time, I'd say it was unique. Both in the way it borrowed (plagiarized) many elements but then also added so many new ones there were genuinely innovative, right from the first card -- "a long time ago..." a future movie from the past -- or having the used, filthy universe style -- or, on a technical level, the deliberate, at-the-time impossible, pace of the editing at the end (a game Lucas said to see how short a shot he could use and have it still read) -- there was as much in that first movie that was different as there was that was 'borrowed'. Of course, you really have to have been there in 1977 to really be hit by it all, to really have the sensation that you never had seen anything like it.

 

[Alatar]

You're a good man, Alatar.

You too, appreciate you bro!

I was around for the theater release of what is now called A New Hope, and I totally agree that it did blow our minds at that time because it so beautifully melded sci-fi with fantasy in a way that hadn’t been done before. A little more backstory on it is that George Lucas was at the time strongly influenced by Transcendental Meditation and Carlos Castaneda’s books about Yaqui shamanism, and along with Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey those were sort of the bedrock for the Jedi religion/philosophy about “the Force.” And ANH also had a very strong Arthurian Knights flavor as well, the grail myth and all that.

We’d never seen “special effects” done quite as effectively to create a sense of the world. We also hadn’t really seen the level of worldbuilding for a franchise baked into a first film like that. Although that being said, just in terms of realism Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey a decade earlier took a completely serious approach to what space travel to Jupiter would look like, and it looked totally gorgeous as well. Like Kubrick’s special effects were brilliant in that film as well. (Note: They used scale models a lot in those days.)

Unpopular opinion, but I actually love ANH the most for all 10 of the films—precisely because it was such a breath of fresh air, and a revelation at the time. But I also feel like even with ESB I started to feel a more heavy handed and self-conscious use of tropes and formulas for the franchise. Myself I wanted them to go hard, all-in, with developing the mythology of the Jedi in exquisite detail. To tell stories more like Castaneda’s books. But no, they went where the money was in a much more mainstream way. But fair enough, I get that cinema’s a biz!

I totally get what you mean, though, about what an impact Star Wars had. Those are gigantic shoes to fill. In literature we saw it with Tolkien’s Middle Earth. We’re not going to get that very often, of course.

I’m okay with updating what Star Wars created with a more adult aesthetic, though. And with widening the various pool of genre inspirations that it draws from. That’s what I’m expecting from the Rebel Moon franchise. And I’m very much down with that. It’s okay with me if it’s not a revolutionary form. But again, i respect the wish for what you’re hoping for from some filmmaker out there.

 

[wormlander]

You're a good man, Alatar.

Get a room guys...

 

[wormlander]

After the disapointment that was "The Creator" I sure hope this doesn't suck

 

[Wor-Gar]

I totally get what you mean, though, about what an impact Star Wars had. Those are gigantic shoes to fill. In literature we saw it with Tolkien’s Middle Earth. We’re not going to get that very often, of course.

That's basically what I mean when I say sci-fi (and Zach's movie) all feel derivative and, well, like Star Wars. I think more effort should be made at trying new things -- take each element and really think it out, somewhere in all those insane ideas is another gem. It's dangerous, it doesn't always work, I know... but still. No one thought Star Wars in 1977 before release was anything more than a kiddie Disney movie. And look what happened.

But yeah, these things take many decades to happen, that's also why I said I don't see it happening for another decade or so. New talent, new ideas, new FX, new way of "filming"... alot of it is the medium too in how the message is delivered.

 

[histrionics]

However, I don't subscribe to the theory that every story has been told.

Never said every story has been told. It's every form of storytelling that has been established and effectively scripted to create typologies that we feel familiar with. There will always be new stories within every genre.

I just don't think there's any real "innovation" as we like to imagine it. Even if there was, we're too knowledgable and jaded as a generation to not deride anything that might be new. No one is redefining or reinventing the genre in any pure way, we simply have instances and waves of narrative and stylistic changes that propel the genre, urging it to be better and somehow feel new and more exciting.

I remember when Star Wars came out and what it felt like. I was into film/tv sci-fi so it shouldn't have been anything new, but it was and it became the gateway drug that took me away from my staples of Star Trek and Doctor Who.

More importantly, I also vividly remember the first time I saw the trailer for Star Wars on our 26" wood cabinet no-remote (get up and turn the dial to change channel) TV. With no knowledge of what this film was, the trailer alone was a mind-blowing jaw-dropping curiosity experience. It made no sense at the time, but I remember being absolutely stunned and thinking I had to see what this weird crazy loud fast-paced sci-fi "thing" was.

In 1977 Star Wars wasn't so much the film itself, but the whole cultural (and marketing) shift that came with it. It happened simultaneously with the disco craze and we had loads of Star Wars disco stuff happening everywhere. My friends and I instantly became huge Star Wars fans, knew the story inside out and bought all the books, comics, magazines, trading cards, t-shirts, lunchboxes, but most of us only saw the actual film months or up to a year later. And a year later our obsession with Star Wars was supplemented with the buying of action figures.* It didn't even matter if one saw the film or not, or considered what effect it had on sci-fi cinema, it was the cultural shift/wave that we rode hard for many years. Even as kids who grew up on Star Trek, Doctor Who and other sci-fi classics, we knew Star Wars wasn't pure science fiction, but more of a sci-fi western for big screen mass audience appeal.

* Note: BTW I was the first kid in my entire school with a Star Wars action figure. I brought my Kenner Luke Skywalker to school the next day, showed it off to friends at recess and created a huge sensation in the schoolyard. A crowd of kids gathered to form the largest circle to marvel at this amazing tiny Luke in my hand. The school bully then "politely" asked if I would give it to him to keep. No, my friends fortified and insulated my circle and I never brought my figures to school again.

 

[Sachiel]

Now that I think about it ZS Cavill Superman was the best steak i’ve ever had!

 

[ironwez20]

Alatar loves Snyder and, despite his eloquent manner, often can't see the forest for the trees. It's fine. The generic response that "everything's been done" is often used as an excuse for the unoriginal.

I mean no disrespect to Alatar, he's always been nice, thoughtful and well-spoken, so I hope the above isn't read as harshly as it may sound.

Yup I respect alatar. Even though I disagree with his takes. I’ve gone on several Snyder tangents and he kinda just shrugs his shoulders and moves on. Wish the rest of the fanbase just followed his example

 

[Alatar]

Thank you Wez! I appreciate the way you behave too in the back and forth. And there’s more folks like me out there, I think. Snyder fans with chill personalities, I mean. Thankfully they don’t write longwinded intellectualizing posts like I do.

More broadly, I’d like to add another point related to what Wor-Gar expressed about hoping for some true innovation in the sci-fi genre.

I did let my hopes rise somewhat in recent years for at least a very satisfying standalone sci-fi movie with both Jupiter Ascending and Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets. Strictly from a visual standpoint they both looked really nice. But the appeal of the story and the characters just wasn’t there. Like I didn’t care what happened to the characters, or frankly the story itself.

And as I continue to keep my eye out for great sci-fi I have to add that personally I’m disappointed with Villenous’ Dune. It’s not entirely objective and I totally respect that some would have a very different experience. But I just don’t buy Timothee Chalemet as Paul Atreides aka Muad’Dib. For me it’s a huge miscasting that my brain can’t get past. And that breaks immersion for me, badly. I can’t get past it. From the books, in my mind’s eye I picture a much more charismatic personality and robust physical presence for that character. But that’s a personal issue for me. Otherwise I think the first movie was respectably well made. Just in terms of craft. Nothing that wowed me anywhere near the level of Peter Jackson’s Lord of the Rings, let’s say. It did hold my interest. I’m not hyped for it though. And it’s not fresh. As Wor-Gar has noted we haven’t seen anything really original in a very, very long time now.

There was one bright spot in the last 15 years or so, where I did connect with a sci-fi franchise. Although the third film of the trilogy disappointed, I absolutely love Vin Diesel’s Riddick trilogy overall. Especially Chronicles of Riddick. As a D&D aficionado I totally get what Vin was doing there. That’s Vin’s own home brew setting as a tabletop Dungeon Master. And his player character Riddick is baddass.

I would add that I like that much of what we see in CoR is left unexplained via dialogue or flashbacks. Instead it just lives organically with a presumed backstory for the viewer to ponder and imagine. Like the lore of the mercs, Necromongers, Furians, and Elementals. There’s actually a ton of lore and backstory for them in Vin’s head. But he just makes a casual reference to that lore, and shows the characters that are connected to those themes as they exist in that world. I like that! (And not for nothing the real world is like that! It doesn’t tell us everything, lol. Far from it. The world forces us to make inferences all the time, practically speaking. Anyway, imho showing things that have a rich backstory but not explaining it per se is not “bloated” or “poor storytelling.”)

Anyway, I’m not worried about the story formula for Rebel Moon. That is, I’m specifically not worried that the story will be weak or unsatisfying in itself. It’s the Seven Samurai, Dirty Dozen, Magnificent Seven… 300… i.e., team building by a charismatic lead character to defend against a hugely powerful enemy, in a battle that will be epic.

I’m also not worried about the worldbuilding for the setting. Zack has put a tremendous amount of thought, time, and energy into creating a highly detailed setting with an extensive history. I love that the setting includes a version of many diverse types of creatures and mythologies that we find all throughout real world human imagination and fantasy. This setting is an entire universe with presumably millions of habitable planets and moons. So why not? Go for it!

The big questions for me are

1) whether Sofia Boutella has the acting chops to carry the lead,

2) whether Sofia’s performance of physical stunts registers in my brain as fully believable (she does her own fight choreography), and

3) just how likable the characters in the team that Kora assembles are, and then how attached I become to them. I can accept that nearly all of the team are going to die—if the movie follows its source inspirations, that is. Probably only Kora and Kai… and Jimmy… are going to survive. But in order for that to work really well, I have to care about the characters. They have to matter to me! The film has to make me instinctively invest emotionally in the relationship with them.

Regarding point 2 above, Sofia had a career as a professional dancer, so evidently Zack felt that she had the ability for every bit of fighting and physical stunts she does. Here’s hoping. For her to be able to execute what we see in the trailers the character in that story world, Kora, must be a martial artist master. That’s the only way. At 5’ 5” and maybe 120-130 lbs she simply doesn’t have the size, strength, and mass of male soldier that’s built like a NFL football linebacker. So if her fighting style is one that uses Judo principles, then cool, it can work.

 

[Johnny Utah]

She's not a great actress. But good actors have always ranked far down the list after visuals in Snyder's movies.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Jupiter Ascending

That's funny, I almost used this movie as an example of "something visually different" that didn't work but I couldn't remember the name.

Chronicles of Riddick

I'd also agree here -- I saw this fairly recently again (like a year ago) and I was more impressed with it then when it first came out. I also like that it was a hard right turn from Riddick's first adventure -- much like Road Warrior was to Mad Max.

 

[jye4ever]

Sure this movie might suck as bad as Sucker Punch but visually it’s off the freaking charts, I just might go see this on a big screen first, shame it’s not the R cut first.

Visually it’s ZS on steroids, cocaine and 5 hour energy lol

 

[Shai]

Hope its not as bland as sucker punch. All style, no substance.Well have to see. Its ESG score though is at an all time high

 

[wormlander]

I just might go see this on a big screen first, shame it’s not the R cut first.

Just pretend the first cut isn't happening and wait for the R-rated to be released. Getting a space saga embracing the grittiness and violence of a real military conflict is maybe the biggest appeal for me going into this. Here's hoping it matches District 9 in terms of out-of-body alien guts

 

[Alatar]

Sucker Punch was ideologically ambitious af, and it ended up being a fair example of Zack Snyder, with his usual exuberance and enthusiasm, overdoing.

This article is I think pretty good at summing up what the movie is trying to do: ‘Sucker Punch’ a Feminist Perspective - The Bottom Line UCSB.

In general it’s good for the viewer to have to work a bit at ciphering out what a movie’s deeper messages are. Real life forces that, and it’s perfectly fair that a film does as well. And it’s actually a good story and set of messages that Zack is telling with Sucker Punch. The problem is that it asks too much of the casual viewer. Especially one that would rather not have to work at all to understand the ‘meta’ layers.

Sucker Punch is also visually lush and extravagant, and in that sense it can easily appear that it’s all “style over substance.” There’s substance there. But again the problem is that the average viewer is forced to work too hard to ferret it out.

I think Rebel Moon will very different in the sense that the deeper messages it contains (perhaps commentary on the evolution of the space opera genre, nuances of Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey) will be far more accessible and instantly familiar to the average viewer. And it will of course be a wild ride visually and in terms of action, which is the main thing the audience wants from it.

 

[Alatar]

One thing I’m beginning to sense from Rebel Moon is that the lead character, Kora, will definitely not be a Mary Sue in the sense that she’s going to be heavily flawed. She’s ”a child of war” and there’s a meta commentary on what war does to damage the psyche of soldiers and civilians who are also casualties of it. So it looks like she’s going to be pretty messed up.