Zack Snyder's Rebel Moon

[Alatar]

If he's acknowledging and saying where the basic idea came just like Lucas did, how is it plagiarism?

Where do we draw the line with this? I’ve posted numerous times the Wikipedia link for all the sources and analogs that George Lucas himself said he was consciously and intentionally drawing from to cobble together Star Wars. Zack is taking the same idea and doing it more self-consciously which normally happens as a genre evolves. The films become increasingly self-aware and self-conscious about the genre’s themes and conventions, and the genre itself more intentionally comments on those elements in a dialogue with the audience that is becoming more mature in their appreciation of the things at the heart of the genre—or at least so familiar that they’ll easily get bored if they just keep getting the same standard fare. They need to feel some novelty to the stories they’re watching. It often shows up in a self-parodying way, e.g., Space Balls. And sometimes in an elegiac way, like with a kind of sadness and sense of loss that we’re not innocent anymore about how and why this entertains us, like The Unforgiven.

It’s interesting to me that Zack Snyder has referred to Sucker Punch as a satire of the feminist themes that film is dealing with. Like he was making a film that was at its core extremely cynical about those issues and themes. Again, there’s an almost Asperger’s-ish disconnection quality to it. Or there’s a strong analogy to whatever is going on with him to that. There’s more I could say about that, but it gets into theoretical territory that I realize will sound pretentious to many folks. So I’ll just leave it there for now. Stuff that by its very nature very hard to either prove or disprove.

 

[MxBxM]

I guess, for me, it comes down to this: if ideas of other material serve as inspiration for something, make it entertaining. This film just fails at that.

Space Balls destroys Rebel Moon completely.

 

[Alatar]

I guess, for me, it comes down to this: if ideas of other material serve as inspiration for something, make it entertaining. This film just fails at that.

Space Balls destroys Rebel Moon completely.

I love Space Balls! And I love Rebel Moon thus far. Obviously for very different reasons. They’re coming from completely different places. It’s an apples and oranges comparison, to be fair.

 

[Frenchy]

How should I explain my take on it takes itself too serious?
It was a term I also did not get at first when I heard it many years ago.
Then I saw this movie and finally understood it.
This movie is just that, a serious movie, no inside jokes, no bonding of characters, it is just brooding plot, "cool" action/fight scene with slow motion, introducing broken/cliche character, unsurprising plot twist or event till the end. Not one fun character in the movie. All of them and all of it is just way too serious.
View attachment 682604

This description works on many of snyder's films...

 

[T8OO]

I guess, for me, it comes down to this: if ideas of other material serve as inspiration for something, make it entertaining. This film just fails at that.

Space Balls destroys Rebel Moon completely.

Do you think the intention was not to entertain?
How could a filmmaker who wants to use material as inspiration know ahead of time if it will connect with the audience?

 

[T8OO]

I love Space Balls! And I love Rebel Moon thus far. Obviously for very different reasons. They’re coming from completely different places. It’s an apples and oranges comparison, to be fair.

I used to love Spaceballs when I was younger. Some scenes are still great but as a movie, it doesn't work for me anymore.
So with that said, it's used to pay homage to Star Wars but now I don't think it's very good anymore, it's plagiarising it

 

[MxBxM]

Do you think the intention was not to entertain?
How could a filmmaker who wants to use material as inspiration know ahead of time if it will connect with the audience?

I think everything has the purpose to entertain you, otherwise, what is the point, right?
And you are correct, no one can possibly know the outcome of a product ahead of time.
I guess my main problem with the film is that all the marketing and push the movie got for being a new franchise, it did not live up to expecatations.
They should have just put it out there and if it is good, it will become big. Right now, i could care less for part 2.

Give me a sequel to District 9 instead

 

[Frenchy]

Do you think the intention was not to entertain?
How could a filmmaker who wants to use material as inspiration know ahead of time if it will connect with the audience?

Snyder :

 

[T8OO]

I think everything has the purpose to entertain you, otherwise, what is the point, right?
And you are correct, no one can possibly know the outcome of a product ahead of time.
I guess my main problem with the film is that all the marketing and push the movie got for being a new franchise, it did not live up to expecatations.
They should have just put it out there and if it is good, it will become big. Right now, i could care less for part 2.

Give me a sequel to District 9 instead

So it was more just a comment on what you think of the movie, not on homage vs plagiarism?

 

[Mondragon]

You know, after thinking about it, I don't know why people associate 7 Samurai with Star Wars,

Most don't, while there is some loose parallels people tend to reference Kurosawa in general as influence, if anything Hidden Fortress, all which Lucas well acknowledges and celebrates.
As to 7 Samurai specific, if you read 1977 Eight from Aduba aka; the saga of the StarHoppers? The first Lucas/Marvel expanded U tale? It's literally the first thing Lucas begrudgingly aproved they did with the franchise, and most laughed at/with it then.
This is why Lucas rejected, or wasn't interested, it'd already been done, not to mention Battle Beyond the Stars.
Snyder's great "idea", wasn't ever going to be new, interesting or innovative to Lucas, it'd be like someone going through his discarded scraps and declaring look I have a great new idea.

Which is exactly what this feels like, though I'll admit despite the horrible dialogue, and shamelessly reused tropes, is still a lot of fun to watch.

 

[The Buffinator]

If he's acknowledging and saying where the basic idea came just like Lucas did, how is it plagiarism?

Where do we draw the line with this? I’ve posted numerous times the Wikipedia link for all the sources and analogs that George Lucas himself said he was consciously and intentionally drawing from to cobble together Star Wars. Zack is taking the same idea and doing it more self-consciously which normally happens as a genre evolves. The films become increasingly self-aware and self-conscious about the genre’s themes and conventions, and the genre itself more intentionally comments on those elements in a dialogue with the audience that is becoming more mature in their appreciation of the things at the heart of the genre.

The difference is Lucas drew inspiration from those sources but he didn't replicate their basic plots, nor did he shamelessly crib ideas from other movies. That Honest Trailer was obviously made for laughs but nonetheless many of the points made with respect to the lack of originality ring true. Whether Snyder did it deliberately or unconsciously (like a rock band unknowingly reusing someone else's riff in a song), it's still a form of plagiarism. Not that anyone's going to be up in arms over that in the movie industry, but when the foundation for this franchise is a patchwork quilt of previously seen plots, tropes and character types the desire to see more of it wanes considerably.

 

[T8OO]

The difference is Lucas drew inspiration from those sources but he didn't replicate their basic plots, nor did he shamelessly crib ideas from other movies. That Honest Trailer was obviously made for laughs but nonetheless many of the points made with respect to the lack of originality ring true. Whether Snyder did it deliberately or unconsciously (like a rock band unknowingly reusing someone else's riff in a song), it's still a form of plagiarism. Not that anyone's going to be up in arms over that in the movie industry, but when the foundation for this franchise is a patchwork quilt of previously seen plots, tropes and character types the desire to see more of it wanes considerably.

I haven't watched the Honest Trailer. I do enjoy them but if I like the movie even a little bit I tend to avoid them.
I think if he's openly discussing what parts he is using and giving the due credit to what he is homaging as Lucas has, that's not plagiarism.

 

[ironwez20]

It has a lightsaber in the movie. Yea that’s not subtle at all

 

[T8OO]

It has a lightsaber in the movie. Yea that’s not subtle at all

I don't think anyone is saying it's subtle.

 

[MxBxM]

So it was more just a comment on what you think of the movie, not on homage vs plagiarism?

Yes. I really don't care if a work is copied or imitated because it is hard to come up with something original without risk.
If you liked the film, were entertained and want part 2, great.

My point is that this movie is doing nothing I have not seen before and does it worse. And before the movie came out, I kept seeing all this marketing trying to set it up as an epic, must see movie with a toy line in the works and other merchandising. Dune was like that, but it delivered.

 

[The Buffinator]

I haven't watched the Honest Trailer. I do enjoy them but if I like the movie even a little bit I tend to avoid them.
I think if he's openly discussing what parts he is using and giving the due credit to what he is homaging as Lucas has, that's not plagiarism.

Strictly speaking the action of replicating Seven Samurai plot points qualifies as plagiarism regardless of what he said, but again in this industry simply changing locations/genres is enough to get away with it. If he had openly stated beforehand that that RB Part 1 was "SS or The Magnificent Seven in space" (rather than just "influenced by" them) he probably would have received considerably less flak than having critics and the audience discover the overt similarity themselves. But then whoever owns the rights to those films would probably want a cut if he did that so IF he copied from them intentionally I can see why he'd leave that tidbit out lol...

 

[T8OO]

Strictly speaking the action of replicating Seven Samurai plot points qualifies as plagiarism regardless of what he said, but again in this industry simply changing locations/genres is enough to get away with it. If he had openly stated beforehand that that RB Part 1 was "SS or The Magnificent Seven in space" (rather than just "influenced by" them) he probably would have received considerably less flak than having critics and the audience discover the overt similarity themselves. But then whoever owns the rights to those films would probably want a cut if he did that so IF he copied from them intentionally I can see why he'd leave that tidbit out lol...

Like this?

 

[Wor-Gar]

If I make Indiana Jones in Space, and literally replicate the story of Raiders of the Lost Ark is that still "homage" to you?

 

[Mondragon]

If I make Indiana Jones in Space,...

Careful, you know Disney story group is trawling for "new" ideas, you just helped one of them fail upwards.

 

[Wor-Gar]

They are welcome to it -- best idea to get to them in years.