Avatar: The Way of Water

[Khev]

So I’m guessing he’s a clone or they downloaded his consciousness into an android or the like. Seems to undermine the dramatic climax of the first film, but I guess killing him over and over again could be Cameron’s way of taking “repeating himself” to yet another level. I think that will get rather routine come the 5th sequel lol.

For me Quaritch was like the water environment. I initially rolled my eyes when I heard he was coming back but then ended up really liking how he was used.

 

[Mandible]

I fear these will be my feelings if I even see this.

But I am curious what did work for you, what you liked.

What works is the nostalgia and being swept up in the moment. When the kid connects with the whale and hugs it, you'd have to be a pretty heartless mongrel not to feel something, even though it's contrived sentimentality. But that's about it.

Story wise it's as dull as dishwater... and NOTHING on the first film (and I'm not a huge fan of the first - as I've mentioned a 7, maybe 8/10). But the story of the first is a complete narrative that hits all the clear beats/structure; Act 1,2,3 - defintive plot points, clearly defined characters, etc. Even though we've seen the same story in Dance With Wolves and a hundred other films - they/it works for a reason.

There's a hundred things I could point out, but as an example; this has ZERO character development and the antagonists very existence is such laughable, lazy Hollywood writing. Unobtainium, was the reason they were there before, but now seems to have zero value in this one as they've had to invent the new beaut "thingy." I laughed out loud at this scene.

It's just so blah from a story point, and again SO derivative of the first. It's like The Force Awakens to A New Hope, but 100 times worse.

I didn't hate it by any means, but it'd be a 5/10, and completely forgettable.

This will be like so many other hyped sequels (The Matrix 2 comes to mind), where people suck up the cool aid and say it's amazing when it comes out, then when they leave the collective mass hysteria and get their senses back, it'll be; "yeah, it was okay."

Again, I wish I could switch my brain off and just lap it all up... but, yeah...

 

[Mandible]

ESB totally ripped off ANH... I still can't get past it.

Yeah, I don't know what film Khev saw - but this comparison is beyond my grasp and understanding.

I'm happy people like it, but let's wait a few years and see if these sorts of statements hold up. I remember people saying this when Attack of the Clones came out, then again when The Last Jedi came out.

 

[Wor-Gar]

What's interesting about Saldana is, in a timeline of about half a decade, she entered into three major franchises. Not as a bit player, but an integral part of them - Avatar, Guardians of the Galaxy (MCU) and Star Trek.

Have you not played this game before? A mere three franchises...

Mads Mikkelsen (Star Wars, Bond, Indy, MCU, Harry Potter)
Julian Glover (Star Wars, Indy, Bond, GoT)
Hugo Weaving (Matrix, LOTR, Transformers, MCU)
Arrrrr-nuld (Conan, Terminator, Batman, Expendables)
Sam Jackson (Star Wars, Jurassic Park, MCU, Kingsman)

There's more, the guys on here will remember...

But also a young guy named Harrison Ford, inside 5 years, did Star Wars, Raiders and Blade Runner. 1977-1982. Not bad.

 

[Khev]

Yeah, I don't know what film Khev saw - but this comparison is beyond my grasp and understanding.

I guess if you're like Wor-Gar in that you always thought ESB and ANH were the same movie then I could see why you'd feel the same about Avatar 1 and 2.

I've never really felt that way though. Yes both SW films involve one side attacking the other's "base," feature Han in the Falcon being chased by four TIE Fighters and Princess Leia needing to be rescued but the way those pieces are rearranged with regard to structure, environment and tone always made them feel like two very different movies to me. And I feel similarly about Avatar. But your mileage may vary obviously.

I also think that the Avatar 2 is less derivative of its predecessor than both ALIENS and T2, respectively. Maybe that will change after future viewings, who knows.

Now I'm not saying that Avatar 2 is as good as ALIENS or ESB, just no more derivative, that's all.

And this may sound strange but I think one of the things I actually like the most about A2 is that it isn't some earth shattering cinematic epic and is instead just a "really good" Cameron flick. I really miss those and am frustrated because he could have spent the last 25 years cranking out like 10 of these. I miss the days when he wasn't "King of the World" and was just the guy who made really cool and solid sci-fi action flicks. Stuff like The Abyss that is nobody's favorite movie, not even anyone's favorite Jim Cameron movie, but is solid, intense, with great visuals, engaging characters and a really cool vibe. I feel similarly about this movie.

I must not be understanding you mentioning AOTC or TLJ, because those films both had huge in your face moments that were at best divisive and at worst universally reviled. I can understand people saying A2 is dull, boring, familiar, or what have you but I can't think of a single scene even remotely in the same ballpark as the fireplace scene in AOTC, "I hate sand," Luke tossing the saber, Leia Poppins, and so on. But maybe I was completely missing the point of you mentioning those flicks and if so my bad.

Okay there was one part of Avatar Way of Water that was genuinely silly and even made some people in the theater laugh out loud:

Spoiler

When what's his name asked the whale why he was an exile and the whale replied "It's too painful" with subtitles. That was just so out of left field, both the whale actually speaking with subtitles and then that phrase being his melodramatic response, lol. I still wouldn't put that moment up there with the worst of the PT and ST though since for SW it was always like Anakin or Luke which is way worse than a kid and a whale.

But I digress.

Wor-Gar's statement that this could have easily been a two hour flick is an interesting one, and may very well have merit. I'm sure Cameron could have cut out a ton of characters and still ended up with a very compelling story. Like maybe

Spoiler

give Jake just one kid--a son, and then lean into the parallels between Jake and son and Quaritch and Spider.

<---don't read if you haven't seen it yet.

But with so many characters and entire sequences devoted to Jake learning new stuff, Quaritch learning new stuff, Jake's kids learning new stuff and their adopted daughter learning new stuff, yeah just a lot of characters that demand a longer running time in order for all of those elements to properly breathe.

 

[JMT1979]

I just got back from seeing it and it was really enjoyable. Visually it is spectacular, and the CGI and 3D has really improved - you really can't tell the humans and Na'vi apart when they're interacting. Score wise, it didn't really stand out and basically did the job.

The plot is nothing like the first one, and as Khev has stated, it isn't derivative of its predecessor. The storyline is not complicated, but for this movie it is appropriate as a lot of the three-hour run time is devoted to building out the new characters and the world building out in the ocean. Jake is still the main character - just - but the focus moves around between the family.

It's definitely an amazing spectacle and I really liked it, but it isn't the type of movie that I think I will rewatch all the time and it isn't going to enter my favourites list, unlike Aliens and T2 from Cameron. If you can, I do highly recommend you all watch it in 3D at the cinema, and even if you don't like the story, the visuals and the world building make it worthwhile.

 

[Rotfish]

I liked it.

The first had the benefit of being the first, so even though the plot is Pocahontas/Dances With Wolves in space, you're hit with a whole lot of new -- the planet, the military, the Avatar technology -- to make up for it and keep things exciting. Not a lot of new in this one, but what was there was well-executed. Water scenes were indeed fantastic.

This is really more about the vibe than anything else. It's escapism and only escapism. Three hours of chilling with blue aliens. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece of storytelling, but I'm willing to check in with the Sully tribe every few years to see what's changed. And I'd still probably buy a Neytiri if Hot Toys come to their senses and make one. Maybe the Metkayina chief as well, he has a cool look.

My two biggest complaints:

The HFR or rather the variable HFR. I've never been a fan of high frame rate, but The Way of Water makes it worse by cutting back and forth between 24 and 48 FPS. I heard this was done selectively, but having now seen the film, I must say it feels arbitrary. Doesn't matter if it's an action or dialogue shot. A character will pick something up in one shot, then we'll see a slightly different angle performing the same action in a different frame rate. When jumping between the two, it makes the traditional 24 FPS look choppy as hell. Cameron of all people should've realized this. Pick a frame rate and stick with it. This isn't Spider-Verse where the animation style lends itself to switching back and forth.

The fact that

Spoiler

Quaritch still isn't dead. I wasn't thrilled with them bringing him back in the first place, but to have him live after the second movie? Uh, uh. Lame. He's not interesting enough to be a recurring Big Bad for this franchise. I never want to see him again. Let's get some proper drama and conflict between the Na'vi, assuming Cameron is capable of writing non-derivative drama.

And why was Zoe’s character so aggressive toward the human kid – there wasn’t any foreshadowing of her ill will toward him?

She never thought he belonged, this was shown in the beginning.

 

[davejames]

What works is the nostalgia and being swept up in the moment. When the kid connects with the whale and hugs it, you'd have to be a pretty heartless mongrel not to feel something, even though it's contrived sentimentality. But that's about it.

Story wise it's as dull as dishwater... and NOTHING on the first film (and I'm not a huge fan of the first - as I've mentioned a 7, maybe 8/10). But the story of the first is a complete narrative that hits all the clear beats/structure; Act 1,2,3 - defintive plot points, clearly defined characters, etc. Even though we've seen the same story in Dance With Wolves and a hundred other films - they/it works for a reason.

There's a hundred things I could point out, but as an example; this has ZERO character development and the antagonists very existence is such laughable, lazy Hollywood writing. Unobtainium, was the reason they were there before, but now seems to have zero value in this one as they've had to invent the new beaut "thingy." I laughed out loud at this scene.

It's just so blah from a story point, and again SO derivative of the first. It's like The Force Awakens to A New Hope, but 100 times worse.

I didn't hate it by any means, but it'd be a 5/10, and completely forgettable.

This will be like so many other hyped sequels (The Matrix 2 comes to mind), where people suck up the cool aid and say it's amazing when it comes out, then when they leave the collective mass hysteria and get their senses back, it'll be; "yeah, it was okay."

Again, I wish I could switch my brain off and just lap it all up... but, yeah...

Yeah I would pretty much agree with this. The first movie may not be the most original thing, but it at least had a solid story arc, a great villain, and was completely engrossing as it introduced us to this world through Sully's eyes and made us care about what happened to it. And it's still a movie I can rewatch every two or three years and enjoy.

But this one felt more like a nature documentary with occasional action beats here and there (that were pretty much a rehash of what we already saw in the first movie). Only this time it revolves around a bunch of kids who are constantly getting in trouble and needing to be rescued again and again. And there's not nearly enough new story wise to justify the long run time, or to make me want to ever go back and rewatch it.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

I saw it today. Avatar 2 is a rehash of the first. Jake is in a new place learning the way of the natives...again. Neytiri cried a lot. I fell asleep. Woke up. Neitiri was still crying. Same bad guy, but he's blue now. Big wild animal saves the day like in the first film. Jake Sully jr falls in love with the chief's daughter...sounds familiar. Same plot, same characters, same story, just more water. 2.5 stars out of 5. It's an ok film to watch once in 3D.

 

[Mandible]

I guess if you're like Wor-Gar in that you always thought ESB and ANH were the same movie then I could see why you'd feel the same about Avatar 1 and 2.

I've never really felt that way though. Yes both SW films involve one side attacking the other's "base," feature Han in the Falcon being chased by four TIE Fighters and Princess Leia needing to be rescued but the way those pieces are rearranged with regard to structure, environment and tone always made them feel like two very different movies to me. And I feel similarly about Avatar. But your mileage may vary obviously.

I also think that the Avatar 2 is less derivative of its predecessor than both ALIENS and T2, respectively. Maybe that will change after future viewings, who knows.

Now I'm not saying that Avatar 2 is as good as ALIENS or ESB, just no more derivative, that's all.

And this may sound strange but I think one of the things I actually like the most about A2 is that it isn't some earth shattering cinematic epic and is instead just a "really good" Cameron flick. I really miss those and am frustrated because he could have spent the last 25 years cranking out like 10 of these. I miss the days when he wasn't "King of the World" and was just the guy who made really cool and solid sci-fi action flicks. Stuff like The Abyss that is nobody's favorite movie, not even anyone's favorite Jim Cameron movie, but is solid, intense, with great visuals, engaging characters and a really cool vibe. I feel similarly about this movie.

I must not be understanding you mentioning AOTC or TLJ, because those films both had huge in your face moments that were at best divisive and at worst universally reviled. I can understand people saying A2 is dull, boring, familiar, or what have you but I can't think of a single scene even remotely in the same ballpark as the fireplace scene in AOTC, "I hate sand," Luke tossing the saber, Leia Poppins, and so on. But maybe I was completely missing the point of you mentioning those flicks and if so my bad.

Okay there was one part of Avatar Way of Water that was genuinely silly and even made some people in the theater laugh out loud:

Spoiler

When what's his name asked the whale why he was an exile and the whale replied "It's too painful" with subtitles. That was just so out of left field, both the whale actually speaking with subtitles and then that phrase being his melodramatic response, lol. I still wouldn't put that moment up there with the worst of the PT and ST though since for SW it was always like Anakin or Luke which is way worse than a kid and a whale.

But I digress.

Wor-Gar's statement that this could have easily been a two hour flick is an interesting one, and may very well have merit. I'm sure Cameron could have cut out a ton of characters and still ended up with a very compelling story. Like maybe

Spoiler

give Jake just one kid--a son, and then lean into the parallels between Jake and son and Quaritch and Spider.

<---don't read if you haven't seen it yet.

But with so many characters and entire sequences devoted to Jake learning new stuff, Quaritch learning new stuff, Jake's kids learning new stuff and their adopted daughter learning new stuff, yeah just a lot of characters that demand a longer running time in order for all of those elements to properly breathe.

Sorry Khev, my bad - completely misinterpreted what was being said between you and Wor and thought you were saying it was Avatar's "Empire Strikes Back" to "SW." Hence the AOTC & TLJ references.

I'll just got and bury my head in the shame corner now

 

[Alatar]

I enjoyed AWoW. I got a little antsy for the first part of the film set in the forest. But for me the movie picked up when one of Jake’s son bonds with the whale-like creature. It wasn’t affecting me at the feeling level much prior to that.

It’s at times a tad heavy handed with formulaic tropes for the drama. There wasn’t much nuance to the military industrial complex villain. The bad guys felt kind of paint-by-the-numbers. But at the end of the day I did truly care about all the heroic characters and what happens to them. That’s what matters most for immersion and enjoyment.

I’m a total sucker for any sort of Dances With Wolves storyline and “soul of the (conscious) planet,” aka Gaia, sorts of mythologies in general. (For Gaia stuff I love Rupert Sheldrake’s morphic resonance theory for example—or at least it fascinates me psychologically if there’s actually nothing to it objectively.) So I’ll continue to follow this story universe as Cameron develops and expands it.

It’s certainly beautiful to watch. The CGI is gorgeous.

The 3D aspect didn’t really impact me all that much. After a while my brain adjusts to it and I don’t notice it anymore. Like for any 3D movie these days every so often there’s a scene that accentuates perspective and I notice it. But that’s it.

This is a movie that I’m actually eager to watch on home theater via 4K disk on my OLED TV. The colors in HDR should look amazing. I’ll probably get the original to watch again as well.

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m along for the ride for this story universe.

 

[YoNoSe]

I loved this movie. In terms of filmmakers aging gracefully I feel like this is the opposite of The Irishman. More realistic monsters too.

 

[Rotfish]

I feel like Cameron's Marines say "ooh-rah" more often than actual Marines.

 

[Khev]

Sorry Khev, my bad - completely misinterpreted what was being said between you and Wor and thought you were saying it was Avatar's "Empire Strikes Back" to "SW." Hence the AOTC & TLJ references.

I'll just got and bury my head in the shame corner now

Ah, okay your reply makes sense now. No worries!

 

[Khev]

I loved this movie. In terms of filmmakers aging gracefully I feel like this is the opposite of The Irishman.

Holy crap I didn't even think of that. Compared to other franchises where filmmakers return to direct after many years like the PT, KOTCS, Hobbit trilogy and Prometheus this movie is ASTOUNDINGLY good.

Man with The Batman, Maverick, Andor and now Avatar 2022 ended up being one hell of a year.

 

[jye4ever]

Holy crap I didn't even think of that. Compared to other franchises where filmmakers return to direct after many years like the PT, Hobbit trilogy and Prometheus this movie is ASTOUNDINGLY good.

Man with The Batman, Maverick, Andor and now Avatar 2022 ended up being one hell of a year.

Stay away from Black Adam lol

Actually it’s worth watching just for the dialogue alone there are no words lol

 

[Khev]

Stay away from Black Adam lol

Actually it’s worth watching just for the dialogue alone there are no words lol

I've seen the Pitch Meeting so I feel like I've been properly debriefed. Is it really 90 minutes of him doing heroic things while constantly telling everyone that he's not a hero, lol.

 

[Darth Snoopy]

Saw AWoW with family and friends yesterday and I thought it was really good. The CGI was fantastic and although the story is particularly original, I enjoyed it overall.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Is this better than GDT's Pinocchio? (I haven't see either -- tough choice: sit though stop-motion or sit through CGI?)

 

[Wor-Gar]

Also, what's the BEST scene in Avatar 2?

Everyone seems to have enjoyed it but I don't hear a real excitement about the film. It's kind of "yeah I liked it... Next" review. People 'talked' about Maverick -- like specific scenes that rocked -- but here most people point out the same flaws and are either put off by them or tolerate them for the larger experience. What Avatar scenes rocked?