Avengers: Endgame

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Don’t worry JAWS I got your back, Khev will not be pleased with this Cap focussed editorial :lol



Let’s start with the most important issue: It’s pretty out of character for Captain America to just bail on his job, and it’s especially out of character for him to bail on his job like this. Going to the past to retire with Peggy would mean that he has to sit by while all sorts of bad things happen that he knows will happen. He gets a front row seat to Hydra taking over SHIELD and fomenting all sorts of evil. He lives the good life while Bucky (Sebastian Stan) is being used and abused as the Winter Soldier for 70 years.


With great power comes great responsibility, and Cap chose to spend the vast majority of his life simply not taking responsibility? Also, remember that whole “I’m with you to the end of the line” thing between him and Bucky? Guess that wasn’t real. Cap, at about 39 years old if you subtract his time in the ice, just gave up and chilled out until he was too old to help out anymore. This is just not something that the Steve Rogers that we’ve gotten to know over the past eight years would do. And it’s insulting to the character not just to put him out to pasture like this, but to have it be his choice.


And on top of all that, this scene doesn’t make sense because of the way he showed up again at the end. According to the rules of time travel set up by “Avengers: Endgame” itself, Cap going back to the past and getting with Peggy would create a divergent timeline and he would no longer be a part of the universe of the movies. Which would mean that in order to return to the present day timeline of “Endgame” he would have to use his time travel device.


If Cap showed up on the time travel platform as an old guy, this scene could be playing by the movie’s own rules. But since he was just hanging out on a bench when they noticed him, it seems to be implying that he simply lived out his life and showed up at the right moment. He’s certainly not wearing the time travel device in that scene.


And since Cap is probably too old-fashioned to engage in polyamory, his marrying Peggy would probably mean that she never married the man that she married in the main timeline, and the kids she had with that guy never existed. So Steve accidentally went back in time and erased Peggy’s children from history. That also doesn’t really seem like a very Steve Rogers thing to do.


I’ve heard the argument that Steve might have actually been Peggy’s unnamed husband that was mentioned in “Winter Soldier” this whole time, and that also doesn’t fit with the rules set by the film. When our heroes travel to the past in “Endgame,” they are creating new versions of events rather than doing stuff that was happening in the background of previous films that we didn’t know about. It doesn’t follow that the quantum mechanics of the MCU as demonstrated in the rest of this film would be different only for Cap.


On top of all that, let’s get even more nit-picky by noting that when Cap left to return the Infinity Stones to where the Avengers took them, he went only with the literal stones. Which is pretty problematic because he would need to return them in their original forms, not as crystals. So the Space Stone would need to be the Tesseract cube. The Mind Stone would need to be in the Scepter. The Reality Stone would have to be a liquid that he would have to inject back into Jane Foster (?!?!) somehow. The Power Stone would be in its orb shell.
I can’t even begin to guess how one would return the Soul Stone to its place on Vormir. But the Time Stone, at least, he could just hand over to the Ancient One as is. And don’t even get me started on the logistics of returning the stones at the exact moment they were taken, as Hulk instructs him, without any help from anyone.


So, yeah, this whole thing is a super-weird mess. It doesn’t fit at all for Cap as a human being, and it doesn’t fit with the time travel rules, and it really just doesn’t seem all that well thought out, opting for emotional fan service at the expense of any kind of narrative coherence. They should have just killed off “Captain America” in the final battle in “Avengers: Endgame” instead. It would have, at least, spared me the pain of having to try to parse all this stuff.

God dammit Jye, I just went from being mildly disappointed in this movie to “***** I can’t watch it again!!”

Damn you!! LOL!!
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Here's an interview with the Russo's explaining Caps final moments in the movie and what it means.

https://ew.com/movies/2019/04/30/avengers-endgame-russo-brothers-captain-america/

So it's confirmed that Cap lived with Peggy in a branch reality, not ours. And since he had the timeline GPS device, he could still return to our timeline. Just because he waited 50 years or so in the branch reality shouldn't matter. Once all the stones are returned, it still would work like it did in the first time heist. He can just reset the GPS to a specific date (probably one before he left and prearranged with Bucky). Bucky could then drop him off nearby so he could pop up on that bench undetected.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Hasn’t anyone not yet learned to never doubt the real first Avenger!

View attachment 452070

:lol :lol

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more messed up its seems to get.

That's why I like IW better. I figured they wouldn't be able to match that movie besides the obvious farewells that would occur. EG will always have the distinction of being The End.

Luckily for me wacky time-travel logic is almost always forgivable in these types of films, especially when you bring other realities/dimensions into the mix and so-called experts (like Tony or Banner or whomever) not necessarily knowing what they're talking about when explaining the "rules." Is it a bit of a narrative cheat, hell yeah but that's beside the point especially when that it's mostly centered around the feel good epilogue stuff. The meat of the film (action and feels as the heroes stay true to themselves against the final clash with Thanos) is where this movie lives or dies and on that level I don't know if this film will ever be matched.

I suspected that the Russos intended Steve to live in an alternate reality (now confirmed) but since they had left it up in the air (at least on screen) I went with my preferred head-canon that Steve was always Peggy's husband especially since the alternate reality angle seemed to be contradicted by old Cap showing up in the current reality. But I'll go with their intention from here on out since apparently they have their predetermined reasons for why he appeared at the end. I'm fine with that being a mystery (rather than an old Biff BTTF II continuity error) and at least their take doesn't allow for the dreaded Evil Cap theory, lol.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Okay so according to them Steve created an alternate reality with Peggy but then found a way to crossover in his old age to say farewell to his buddies in the first reality. Which means in the alternate reality he very well might have used his foreknowledge to prevent all the atrocities that he knew was coming (including the war with Thanos which destroyed his shield) which is why he had a perfectly undamaged one to give to Sam.

How did he jump back into the first reality? I guess it's a mystery like how Thor first came to earth after the bifrost was destroyed.

The theory I've read regarding Sam is that in the reality that Cap created with Peggy, that by the time the Avengers came to be Steve would be to old and Sam in the alternate reality was Cap which is why when the Sam we know picks it up and says "it feels like it belongs to someone else" Cap says "it doesn't" hinting at the fact that Sam has been using the shield in Steves other universe.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

The theory I've read regarding Sam is that in the reality that Cap created with Peggy, that by the time the Avengers came to be Steve would be to old and Sam in the alternate reality was Cap which is why when the Sam we know picks it up and says "it feels like it belongs to someone else" Cap says "it doesn't" hinting at the fact that Sam has been using the shield in Steves other universe.

Interesting. Fun stuff to ponder.

So that means Steve is not Peggy's husband and those aren't his kids in the main timeline in TWS film.

Correct. So both Cap and Star-Lord assumedly live with alternate reality duplicates of their lost loves. I wonder if they'll go down that road with the solo BW flick or if it'll be a prequel set in the main MCU reality.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

:lol :lol



Luckily for me wacky time-travel logic is almost always forgivable in these types of films, especially when you bring other realities/dimensions into the mix and so-called experts (like Tony or Banner or whomever) not necessarily knowing what they're talking about when explaining the "rules." Is it a bit of a narrative cheat, hell yeah but that's beside the point especially when that it's mostly centered around the feel good epilogue stuff. The meat of the film (action and feels as the heroes stay true to themselves against the final clash with Thanos) is where this movie lives or dies and on that level I don't know if this film will ever be matched.

I suspected that the Russos intended Steve to live in an alternate reality (now confirmed) but since they had left it up in the air (at least on screen) I went with my preferred head-canon that Steve was always Peggy's husband especially since the alternate reality angle seemed to be contradicted by old Cap showing up in the current reality. But I'll go with their intention from here on out since apparently they have their predetermined reasons for why he appeared at the end. I'm fine with that being a mystery (rather than an old Biff BTTF II continuity error) and at least their take doesn't allow for the dreaded Evil Cap theory, lol.

Seems to me that Cap’s ending is holding up rather well under some really heavy duty scrutiny that i’m the one posting no less lol

I’m just doing a stress test. :lol

Except Wor-Gar he abandoned the damn movie already lol

The theory I've read regarding Sam is that in the reality that Cap created with Peggy, that by the time the Avengers came to be Steve would be to old and Sam in the alternate reality was Cap which is why when the Sam we know picks it up and says "it feels like it belongs to someone else" Cap says "it doesn't" hinting at the fact that Sam has been using the shield in Steves other universe.

That’s really cool as in “Holy crap Jesus H Mary Peter Paul Joseph Lord and Baby Jesus Christ” cool.
 
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Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

So, yeah, this whole thing is a super-weird mess. It doesn’t fit at all for Cap as a human being, and it doesn’t fit with the time travel rules, and it really just doesn’t seem all that well thought out, opting for emotional fan service at the expense of any kind of narrative coherence. They should have just killed off “Captain America” in the final battle in “Avengers: Endgame” instead. It would have, at least, spared me the pain of having to try to parse all this stuff.

05318d15021faa136e007dfe4fc12f3dbbf05d-v5.jpg


Steve has referenced that date/dance so many times throughout the MCU, it's in line with the rest of the movie's tying of loose ends to have him go out that way.

And it's not like there aren't loads of other plotholes due to the time heist. This isn't the least paradoxical time travel movie out there. Off the top of my head, Prisoner of Azkaban and -- I'm not kidding here -- The Time Traveler's Wife are much more cleanly done. Endgame is merely decent, but it's difficult for that kind of plot device to be handled any better when there are so many balls to juggle.

It's like we're just realizing these aren't Academy caliber films. :lol Even so, a lot of thought and heart goes into them and that counts more than whether they're able to successfully stick the landing on a mechanic that's given Hollywood trouble for decades.
 
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Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Correct. So both Cap and Star-Lord assumedly live with alternate reality duplicates of their lost loves. I wonder if they'll go down that road with the solo BW flick or if it'll be a prequel set in the main MCU reality.

The question is, did he have kids with alternate Peggy in that time branch? Also, what happens to Peggy once he leaves that time branch? Did he live a full life with her, waited for her to die, then erased that time branch by placing the stones back in place and came back to the main timeline in 2023? All that took place in what fell like 5 seconds in 2023 while the team was waiting for him? Does that make sense?
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

05318d15021faa136e007dfe4fc12f3dbbf05d-v5.jpg


Steve has referenced that date/dance so many times throughout the MCU, it's in line with the rest of the movie's tying of loose ends to have him go out that way.

And it's not like there aren't loads of other plotholes due to the time heist. This isn't the least paradoxical time travel movie out there. Off the top of my head, Prisoner of Azkaban and -- I'm not kidding here -- The Time Traveler's Wife are much more cleanly done. Endgame is merely decent, but it's difficult for that kind of plot device to be handled any better when there are so many balls to juggle.

It's like we're just realizing these aren't Academy caliber films. :lol Even so, a lot of thought and heart goes into them and that counts more than whether they're able to successfully stick the landing on a mechanic that's given Hollywood trouble for decades.

Yeah it’s pretty much like what Khev was saying which is that the emotional investment and thrills of the movie easily overcome any time travel mumbo-jumbo although part of me wishes that they didn’t even bother with time travel at all for their plot.

But infinity stones and quantum realm yo lol

At the end of the day it’s all good for me I fully embrace this ending because why.....

Because the MCU has EARNED IT THAT’S WHY and I might add Cap wielded Thor’s freaking hammer and said the magic words what’s not to love and embrace right!
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

The question is, did he have kids with alternate Peggy in that time branch? Also, what happens to Peggy once he leaves that time branch? Did he live a full life with her, waited for her to die, then erased that time branch by placing the stones back in place and came back to the main timeline in 2023? All that took place in what fell like 5 seconds in 2023 while the team was waiting for him? Does that make sense?

It doesn't make sense but it cheered all the depressed Cap fans up 'coz Cap got a happy ending. I thought that Cap saying "it doesn't" to Sam was just sort of emphasizing that Sam is truly Captain America now. Especially with Bucky affirming it.

I just hope the Disney series makes up for a lot that IMO really needed to happen with Cap/Bucky/Sam in IW and EG, but never did. Still, supposedly Disney is throwing a lot into these planned series, and supposedly potential film to TV crossovers aren't going to be an issue. So am optimistic. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/avengers-endgame-sets-up-new-captain-america-movie-disney-shows-1205703

Because the MCU has EARNED IT THAT’S WHY and I might add Cap wielded Thor’s freaking hammer and said the magic words what’s not to love and embrace right!

Well, yeah. Kinda. I don't know EG would be my favorite movie - that's still TWS/CW and all the others - TFA, Ragnarok, etc. It's like EG is its own thing - its own bittersweet thing. "Part of the journey is the end". And fat Thor is now my spirit animal.:cool::rock2
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Okay so according to them Steve created an alternate reality with Peggy but then found a way to crossover in his old age to say farewell to his buddies in the first reality. Which means in the alternate reality he very well might have used his foreknowledge to prevent all the atrocities that he knew was coming (including the war with Thanos which destroyed his shield) which is why he had a perfectly undamaged one to give to Sam.

How did he jump back into the first reality? I guess it's a mystery like how Thor first came to earth after the bifrost was destroyed.

That still means he erased her kids in that alternate time live..... Russo’s made cap evil and hulk worthless... worst marvel movie ever.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Yeah it’s pretty much like what Khev was saying which is that the emotional investment and thrills of the movie easily overcome any time travel mumbo-jumbo although part of me wishes that they didn’t even bother with time travel at all for their plot.

But infinity stones and quantum realm yo lol

At the end of the day it’s all good for me I fully embrace this ending because why.....

Because the MCU has EARNED IT THAT’S WHY and I might add Cap wielded Thor’s freaking hammer and said the magic words what’s not to love and embrace right!

This is all true... I fully embrace Cap as the New T800
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Nah, you can't erase something that never happened.

But would have... in the newly created alternate timeline... Frankly I don’t care... if it’s alternate Steve that shows up that means that Peggy had her kids in the real timeline and Cap is with Peggy... However he may have just really ruined Peggie’s alternate husband to be’s life... Perhaps now that he does not marry Peggy he goes on to a life of crime, drugs, and murder in this alternate reality destroying the lives of how many families in the alternate reality... Bad Cap... Bad.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Now that the sting of this films treatment of Hulk has worn off, I need to give it another go and try my best to love it as caps story with an IM subplot... Perhaps I can fully geek out this time... still gotta get past that second act though.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

When Cap joins Peggy in the past, he created an alternate reality. I assume he did all of this BEFORE she met her husband, fell in love, and had children. The main timeline wouldn't change.
I will agree that the poor schmoe who now will not be Peggy's husband in this new reality probably ended up living a less fulfilling life. If my reality was that I had Peggy to come home to every night, I'd assume an alternate reality without that option would be nothing but a letdown.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Don’t worry JAWS I got your back, Khev will not be pleased with this Cap focussed editorial :lol

.

:lol

I don’t want to Ruin this film for Khev... Granted it’s not possible anyways. We could find out that the alternate timeline Cap does join Hydra and Khev would still twist himself into a pretzel and find a way be happy with the films end and I wouldn’t blame him :lol
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

When Cap joins Peggy in the past, he created an alternate reality. I assume he did all of this BEFORE she met her husband, fell in love, and had children. The main timeline wouldn't change.
I will agree that the poor schmoe who now will not be Peggy's husband in this new reality probably ended up living a less fulfilling life. If my reality was that I had Peggy to come home to every night, I'd assume an alternate reality without that option would be nothing but a letdown.

Exactly:lol
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

When Cap joins Peggy in the past, he created an alternate reality. I assume he did all of this BEFORE she met her husband, fell in love, and had children. The main timeline wouldn't change.
I will agree that the poor schmoe who now will not be Peggy's husband in this new reality probably ended up living a less fulfilling life. If my reality was that I had Peggy to come home to every night, I'd assume an alternate reality without that option would be nothing but a letdown.

Per an early draft of the script, the guy marries someone else and his progeny never amount to much. His last name is Banner, but I'm sure that's just a coincidence...
 
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