Avengers: Endgame

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Maybe that was Loki dancing with Peggy at the end! :horror We already know from The Dark World that he has a mean Cap impersonation. If that actually turned out to be true (I know, it's not), that would be the ultimate fake out. Talk about mind fraks. :lol

Yep and then we're back to him looking at the camera while Vincent Price laughs, lol.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

After watching it three times now I actually don't think that the Hulk was jipped so much with regard to the action as much as he was denied a satisfying emotional payoff at the end. So many characters got closure with loved ones or emotional sendoffs (or both.) Rhodey, Peter, and Pepper saying goodbye to Tony. Thor reflecting on who he wants to be and embarking on a new journey with his new team. Wanda and Clint bonding over those they lost. Clint, Scott, and T'Challa gathering together with their respective families. Cap's last moments with Bucky and Sam and of course Peggy. The GotG heading off in search of adventure. Valkyrie being anointed ruler of "New Asgard." Tony's big hologram speech. Even Happy gets a moment to bond with the daughter of his previous boss.

What did Banner get? He got to play DJ to Cap's sendoff. Nothing of his own. And I don't even think it would have taken much. General Ross was right there at the funeral. They could have done a quick shot of him saluting Banner or at the very least nodding in respect and appreciation. Hulk's biggest critic validating his ultimate heroism. At first I thought maybe they didn't want to interrupt the perfect flow of the funeral but they segued smoothly enough into Clint and Wanda having a moment by the lake so I'm sure they could have worked in Ross and Banner just as well.

That's why I don't really feel like Bucky or the GotG or BP got snubbed in the final battle, because they all got little character specific bookend scenes. Almost everyone did except Banner. That's what feels like a missed moment to me more than him raging on the battlefield.

I agree about the emotional send off for Banner.. Something is missing there.

And I still feel like, and this is coming from the side of me that is accepting Hulk not being in the film, that Hulk should have been there with Cap, Thor, and IM.. It feels off to me.. I guess some could say.. Well its like A1 when all three stand together after fighting.. But now they are a team.. Sure I guess but it just feels off not having Hulk there from the standpoint of everything this film built up to.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Also... More proof that Hulk was not in this film..

They say that the eyes are the Window to the Soul... Well "Hulk's" eyes were Banner Brown in this film...

Poor Hulk :(
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

After watching it three times now I actually don't think that the Hulk was jipped so much with regard to the action as much as he was denied a satisfying emotional payoff at the end. So many characters got closure with loved ones or emotional sendoffs (or both.) Rhodey, Peter, and Pepper saying goodbye to Tony. Thor reflecting on who he wants to be and embarking on a new journey with his new team. Wanda and Clint bonding over those they lost. Clint, Scott, and T'Challa gathering together with their respective families. Cap's last moments with Bucky and Sam and of course Peggy. The GotG heading off in search of adventure. Valkyrie being anointed ruler of "New Asgard." Tony's big hologram speech. Even Happy gets a moment to bond with the daughter of his previous boss.

What did Banner get? He got to play DJ to Cap's sendoff. Nothing of his own. And I don't even think it would have taken much. General Ross was right there at the funeral. They could have done a quick shot of him saluting Banner or at the very least nodding in respect and appreciation. Hulk's biggest critic validating his ultimate heroism. At first I thought maybe they didn't want to interrupt the perfect flow of the funeral but they segued smoothly enough into Clint and Wanda having a moment by the lake so I'm sure they could have worked in Ross and Banner just as well.

That's why I don't really feel like Bucky or the GotG or BP got snubbed in the final battle, because they all got little character specific bookend scenes. Almost everyone did except Banner. That's what feels like a missed moment to me more than him raging on the battlefield.

What's funny is that despite how long Mark Ruffalo's played Hulk, I think the funeral was the first time that he and William Hurt have appeared together on screen in those roles. Hulk was AWOL during Civil War, and in IW I think Rhodey swiped left on Ross's hologram just before Banner appeared and said hi to Nat, Cap and the gang. I think their interacting at all would have felt odd; maybe if they CGI'd Ed Norton's features onto Hulk? :lol
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

I agree about the emotional send off for Banner.. Something is missing there.

And I still feel like, and this is coming from the side of me that is accepting Hulk not being in the film, that Hulk should have been there with Cap, Thor, and IM.. It feels off to me.. I guess some could say.. Well its like A1 when all three stand together after fighting.. But now they are a team.. Sure I guess but it just feels off not having Hulk there from the standpoint of everything this film built up to.

Yeah I guess I'd be one of those people. I do like the dynamic of the "Big Three" fighting together and the symmetry with that first A1 forest scene. Of course I understand you'd want it to be the Big Four and not Three. I did think it was awesome that all four were in frame for Cap's big line though.

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Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Yeah I guess I'd be one of those people. I do like the dynamic of the "Big Three" fighting together and the symmetry with that first A1 forest scene. Of course I understand you'd want it to be the Big Four and not Three. I did think it was awesome that all four were in frame for Cap's big line though.

View attachment 453854




What do you think of my "two things to improve the movie"

I know you think its about perfect but I think both things make the film far more interesting and fun.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

What do you think of my "two things to improve the movie"

I know you think its about perfect but I think both things make the film far more interesting and fun.

Well since you posted in the other thread I responded there, lol. I like your idea for #1, not sure on #2. Were you picturing that Thor fight himself in addition to Cap fighting himself or instead of it? I do like the 2013 Asgard scene as is and if I were to extend anything I'd probably lean toward Natalie Portman's screen time. :D
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Well since you posted in the other thread I responded there, lol. I like your idea for #1, not sure on #2. Were you picturing that Thor fight himself in addition to Cap fighting himself or instead of it? I do like the 2013 Asgard scene as is and if I were to extend anything I'd probably lean toward Natalie Portman's screen time. :D

Just Thor.. No Cap.. That would be overkill.

Cap (and I know he is your fav) is the least interesting to have fight himself..

Thor vs Thor(who kinda does get shafted in the action department) could have been a really fun action scene.. Like I said.. One reaches for the Hammer and it starts to go to him then the other does and the hammer switches... What ever.. Two Gods of Thunder is much more visually interesting then two Super Soldiers. Already seen that in TWS and CW

You could keep the Thor and his Mom scene. Just have it where Thor and Rocket and running from the guards, getting ready to time travel and they run into Classic Thor looking for his Hammer :)

Also.. I am pretty sure that Natalie Portman did not film a shot in that film.. I think that is a deleted scene or Alternate take from Thor 2
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

I'm not sure it would have fit well in that scene (chubby Thor fighting himself on the day his mom dies) but I'd definitely be open to seeing how it played out. :)
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

My idea for fixing one small issue with the movie:
Before the team goes on the adventure they are all getting into their quantum suits and Thor finds that he is too fat for it to fit properly and causes rips every time he moves. Under protest, Hulk and Cap drag Thor in front of Scott Lang's quantum tunneling device in the van and turn him back to how he looked 5 years ago.


Honestly given how the machine was just set up and all the promo images featured a skinny Thor, I kind of figured this was going to happen.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

I'm not sure it would have fit well in that scene (chubby Thor fighting himself on the day his mom dies) but I'd definitely be open to seeing how it played out. :)

Well that is a good point. I am not sure how much it would matter.. The scene plays a lot for laughs at anyways.. So I don't know if it really matters.. Its not like its going to effect the events that are about to happen or lessen the drama of mom dying for Past Thor.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Admittedly I do think it would be cool to have two Thors trying to get Mjolnir to fly to them.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Yea, that scene is a pretty good example of the whole tone of the movie. Everything just kind of feels like its dragging and lacks energy.


Lacks energy.. That is a good way to put it..

Now don't get me wrong.. I very much enjoyed it the 2nd time.. But it lacks energy at times.. Mostly during the 2nd act.

I love the first act so I would change nothing there. Its mood is perfect.

The 2nd act was better the 2nd time. But yeah. It lacks energy.

It might make the most sense for Cap to fight Cap... But its also the least interesting.. It seems the 2nd act had all the least interesting choices and moments.

There are good parts for sure though.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Admittedly I do think it would be cool to have two Thors trying to get Mjolnir to fly to them.


Exactly.

Would have been a much better stand out scene.. Even if it might ruin the drama of knowing that Thor's moms death was coming..

Of course other then Thor saying it was the day she dies I never gave it much thought after that. Especailly since it starts playing for laughs after that.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Lacks energy.. That is a good way to put it..

Now don't get me wrong.. I very much enjoyed it the 2nd time.. But it lacks energy at times.. Mostly during the 2nd act.

I love the first act so I would change nothing there. Its mood is perfect.

The 2nd act was better the 2nd time. But yeah. It lacks energy.

It might make the most sense for Cap to fight Cap... But its also the least interesting.. It seems the 2nd act had all the least interesting choices and moments.

There are good parts for sure though.

Sorry, ignore that post. I posted in the Aladdin thread and somehow that post got teleported here. Weird.....

I actually loved Endgame except for some nitpicks.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Been thinking about this film, and it struck me how much they've avoided the superhero movie fight trope for most of the film. Majority of the film was spent on characters rather than action.

I guess the writers knew that the audience knew that the heroes would save the day here, so they decided to focus on the characters instead and raised the tension through that.

Take the first act for example. Excluding the execution of Thanos in the beginning (this plays as a closing for IW more than a beginning for EG), the arc focuses almost entirely on each character's state of mind:

  • Steve shows self-doubt over his failure in IW (made worse by Tony's confrontation with him at the beginning). He's grappling with the idea of moving on or if the fight needed to still be fought. But he just can't let go.
  • Nat is desperately trying to keep her "family" (the Avengers) together by playing quaterback for the team.
  • Barton simply lost himself after losing his family.
  • Thor is inconsolable over his failure to stop Thanos and just falls into despair.
  • Banner thinks he failed the team so he goes on to embrace the Hulk's psyche into his own.
  • Stark is living a content life with his family.

The main conflict here is getting the entire team back together despite their differences. The conflict here is mostly internal or between the protagonists (Stark vs Cap).

Act two (the time heist) does not even focus on getting the gems. In fact, most of the gems were simple to acquire. The acquisition of the Reality stone even happens off-screen! instead, the act focuses on the continued arc of the main 6:

  • Steve finds the will to fight back for what was lost and mends his friendship with Stark.
  • Nat erases the red in her ledger by sacrificing herself to acquire the soul stone.
  • Barton gets saved by Nat, gets a chance to gain his family back.
  • Thor gets to the home he lost (Asgard) and meet the mother he lost. She then makes him realize that his failure doesn't make him a lesser person and this starts building back his confidence. His worthiness is emphasized by getting back Mjolnir
  • Banner gets slapped out of Hulk. :lol
  • Stark gets to speak to his father, closing a long-running arc while also giving him a better grasp of what it is to be a father. He also mends his friendship with Steve.

Act 3 (the snap and final battle) gives what I think is Banner/Hulk's closure. For the longest time, Banner has regarded the Hulk as an agent of destruction and fear. Through the snap, he made the Hulk an instrument of creation and hope.

The fight is also symbolic for the remaining 5 core members I think. Thanos is pretty much the anti-thesis of the Avengers (this is why he is a great villain in the same way the Joker was in TDK). The Avengers do not trade lives, Thanos wants to kill everyone to save everyone. Thanos even reflects the individual core Avengers:
  • Steve's resolve, but not his heart.
  • Barton's family (in the Black Order), but without his familial ties.
  • Thor's confidence but none of his sense of responsibility towards the people.
  • Hulk's strenght, but none of Banner's focus to do good.
  • Stark's intelligence and logic-based mentality, but none of his kindness.

I think the focus on characters has really elevated this film in the superhero genre. There's still a lot to unpack from the movie I think.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Sorry, ignore that post. I posted in the Aladdin thread and somehow that post got teleported here. Weird.....

I actually loved Endgame except for some nitpicks.

:lol

Well you nailed EG also :lol


I want to make sure I am not sounding too negative on it.. I enjoyed it much more.

It just could have been an all time great..

Note how I am saying this without asking for more Hulk at the end or Hulk getting payback on Thanos.. :)

I am saying this taking the film as is.. Sure the above moments might improve my enjoyment. But I say this as someone who really was not bothered by the lack of Hulk the 2nd time.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Been thinking about this film, and it struck me how much they've avoided the superhero movie fight trope for most of the film. Majority of the film was spent on characters rather than action.

I guess the writers knew that the audience knew that the heroes would save the day here, so they decided to focus on the characters instead and raised the tension through that.

Take the first act for example. Excluding the execution of Thanos in the beginning (this plays as a closing for IW more than a beginning for EG), the arc focuses almost entirely on each character's state of mind:

  • Steve shows self-doubt over his failure in IW (made worse by Tony's confrontation with him at the beginning). He's grappling with the idea of moving on or if the fight needed to still be fought. But he just can't let go.
  • Nat is desperately trying to keep her "family" (the Avengers) together by playing quaterback for the team.
  • Barton simply lost himself after losing his family.
  • Thor is inconsolable over his failure to stop Thanos and just falls into despair.
  • Banner thinks he failed the team so he goes on to embrace the Hulk's psyche into his own.
  • Stark is living a content life with his family.

The main conflict here is getting the entire team back together despite their differences. The conflict here is mostly internal or between the protagonists (Stark vs Cap).

Act two (the time heist) does not even focus on getting the gems. In fact, most of the gems were simple to acquire. The acquisition of the Reality stone even happens off-screen! instead, the act focuses on the continued arc of the main 6:

  • Steve finds the will to fight back for what was lost and mends his friendship with Stark.
  • Nat erases the red in her ledger by sacrificing herself to acquire the soul stone.
  • Barton gets saved by Nat, gets a chance to gain his family back.
  • Thor gets to the home he lost (Asgard) and meet the mother he lost. She then makes him realize that his failure doesn't make him a lesser person and this starts building back his confidence. His worthiness is emphasized by getting back Mjolnir
  • Banner gets slapped out of Hulk. :lol
  • Stark gets to speak to his father, closing a long-running arc while also giving him a better grasp of what it is to be a father. He also mends his friendship with Steve.

Act 3 (the snap and final battle) gives what I think is Banner/Hulk's closure. For the longest time, Banner has regarded the Hulk as an agent of destruction and fear. Through the snap, he made the Hulk an instrument of creation and hope.

The fight is also symbolic for the remaining 5 core members I think. Thanos is pretty much the anti-thesis of the Avengers (this is why he is a great villain in the same way the Joker was in TDK). The Avengers do not trade lives, Thanos wants to kill everyone to save everyone. Thanos even reflects the individual core Avengers:
  • Steve's resolve, but not his heart.
  • Barton's family (in the Black Order), but without his familial ties.
  • Thor's confidence but none of his sense of responsibility towards the people.
  • Hulk's strenght, but none of Banner's focus to do good.
  • Stark's intelligence and logic-based mentality, but none of his kindness.

I think the focus on characters has really elevated this film in the superhero genre. There's still a lot to unpack from the movie I think.

All are excellent points.. I really cant argue with any of them.. Other then Leave Hulk's name out of it.. This is all about Banner :)

I still would have like to see some more fun with the New Your battle and a Thor vs Thor scene..

Do that and I would rate this film as almost perfect.

The moments you mention are all there.. But for me anyways.. Accept for a few moments lacked the drama it was trying to capture.

Its there but its all subtle.. Which works sometimes..... But could have worked better. Comics don't tend to be all that subtle :) For example.. I would have liked to see a bit more of that Steve / Tony friendship being mended.. Its been a long time since Civil War..

Great read though and great points. Like I said I cant really argue with any of them.. Just thought the could have been executed a little better.
 
Re: Avengers: Endgame (April 26th, 2019)

Hmm great point e30ernest about the Hulk snap being Banner's ultimate closure with himself. Ooh I didn't even think of that. I came away thinking he was denied closure with another character like everyone else got but as JAWS often points out he *is* two characters isn't he. So his "it's like I was born for this" or whatever he says is Banner's brain and Hulk's brawn coming together for the ultimate heroics and in all seriousness as far as single acts go nothing in superhero history really compares to bringing trillions back to life. I think that's totally what they were going for and as of now the film has one less nitpick for me, lol.
 
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