**Beware SPOILERS** Obi-Wan Kenobi Series on Disney+ **Beware SPOILERS**

[Khev]

So the final duel took place on Melachor V as everyone knows from KOTOR2!

Holy crap!

Oh wait I've never played KOTOR, lol.

 

[jye4ever]

Upon re-watching the last episode I just noticed that after Anakin says that he himself killed Anakin you catch half of a sinister smile on his face under the mask that instantly took me back to The Exorcist when she devilishly grins.

Go see it’s pretty creepy.

Plus his face is blue when Anakin is being mentioned then turns to red for Vader!

Really good stuff!

Reva sucks!

 

[punisher1974]

Upon re-watching the last episode I just noticed that after Anakin says that he himself killed Anakin you catch half of a sinister smile on his face under the mask that instantly took me back to The Exorcist when she devilishly grins


Plus his face is blue when Anakin is being mentioned then turns to red for Vader!

Really good stuff!

Reva sucks!

The sinister smile is very telling of his mindset and look of pain on Obi Wan's face as he realizes Anakin is lost so deep in Vader. Liked Obi Wan calling him Darth as he walked away as if saying next time it will be the final battle between them.

 

[jye4ever]

The sinister smile is very telling of his mindset and look of pain on Obi Wan's face as he realizes Anakin is lost so deep in Vader. Liked Obi Wan calling him Darth as he walked away as if saying next time it will be the final battle between them.

Shame they created this Reva character I get what they were going for with the younglings and the idea kind of works but the execution left a lot to be desired.

Had the series focused on the relationship between Obi and Vader (and Owen) it would’ve been a must revisit every year level of quality especially since the existing writing between Obi and Vader was already of high caliber!!!

Holy missed opportunity!

 

[ajp4mgs]

But it doesn't just stop there. "...to walk away and let him torture and kill many, many good people as a result of his refusal to act."

As seen on-screen, the Jedi are not pacifists. Obi Wan is guilty of gross negligence. His wishy-washy reasons don't matter, the outcome does.

The irony, of course, is that the outcome ended up being Vader lived to be the one who killed the much more evil Palpatine, ultimately ending the Empire and sparing who-knows-how-many more from being tortured and/or murdered.

 

[jye4ever]

The irony, of course, is that the outcome ended up being Vader lived to be the one who killed the much more evil Palpatine, ultimately ending the Empire and sparing who-knows-how-many more from being tortured and/or murdered.

Remove Vader from ANH and Alderaan still gets blown up!

 

[jye4ever]

Amazing that for all the crap flung on canon in this series we still got a top 3 lightsaber fight.

But that lightsaber fight unfortunately reminded me of the epic TPM fight where they kept cutting away to the lame Gungan stuff.

It kept cutting back to Reva’s lame arc.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Remove Vader from ANH and Alderaan still gets blown up!

Remove Vader and maybe Palpatine gets an apprentice who doesn't stop himself from killing Luke the way Vader did on Bespin.

I'm picturing a scenario where a smiling Kenobi rides his Eopie to the Qui-Gon ghost and happily proclaims, "I did it! I killed Vader after I'd already neutralized him." The Qui-Gon ghost pulls him aside and shows him the two possible futures; one ending with Palpatine finally being defeated by the only guy who could do it, and the other being a dead Luke and several more decades of Imperial terror.

 

[jye4ever]

Remove Vader and maybe Palpatine gets an apprentice who doesn't stop himself from killing Luke the way Vader did on Bespin.

I'm picturing a scenario where a smiling Kenobi rides his Eopie to the Qui-Gon ghost and happily proclaims, "I did it! I killed Vader after I'd already neutralized him." The Qui-Gon ghost pulls him aside and shows him the two possible futures; one ending with Palpatine finally being defeated by the only guy who could do it, and the other being a dead Luke and several more decades of Imperial terror.

Qui-Gon appears!

Obi-Wan: “I slaughtered Vader master!”

Qui-Gon disappears!

 

[ajp4mgs]

Qui-Gon appears!

Obi-Wan: “I slaughtered Vader master!”

Qui-Gon disappears!

 

[jye4ever]

Remove Vader and maybe Palpatine gets an apprentice who doesn't stop himself from killing Luke the way Vader did on Bespin.

I'm picturing a scenario where a smiling Kenobi rides his Eopie to the Qui-Gon ghost and happily proclaims, "I did it! I killed Vader after I'd already neutralized him." The Qui-Gon ghost pulls him aside and shows him the two possible futures; one ending with Palpatine finally being defeated by the only guy who could do it, and the other being a dead Luke and several more decades of Imperial terror.

Vader was actually trying to recruit Luke to overthrow the emperor!

The rebellion was actually benefiting from Vader still being alive lol

When you think about it even though Vader had killed the emperor I have a feeling that had he not died he still would’ve been charged by the republic for his crimes.

 

[ajp4mgs]

When you think about it even though Vader had killed the emperor I have a feeling that had he not died he still would’ve been charged by the republic for his crimes.

I sure as **** hope so.

 

[TaliBane]

Kinda weird how qui gon died instantly from it but she healed.

Ah, but this is Reva. For obvious reasons she has the Lucasfilm Story Group immortality spell.

 

[TaliBane]

Just picture Maverick in 1986 making it with the girl in Labyrinth, lol.

"The Hot Spot" released just three years after "Labyrinth" will fundamentally alter your view of younger Jennifer Connelly....

 

[ObiGlennKenobi]

Man...I've crushed on Jennifer Connelly since I first seen The Labyrinth...
she just gets better ever year!!

 

[a-dev]

The concept of "dark side of the Force" has been twisted and perverted to best suit the needs of whatever story was being told at the time. So if you're asking me for an incontrovertible "official" version of what happens to people like Anakin, I don't think there is one. All I can do is give you my take on it, with the OT and its reference material being my main guide.

In Star Wars, the light and dark sides of the Force never needed to be much more complicated than the real-world inspiration of yin and yang. The light and the dark are both equally needed to maintain a proper balance of life. You can't have new life without death; love has no meaning without understanding hate; cold has no meaning without hot, etc.

When the Sith use the dark side to extinguish the light (such as with exterminating the Jedi Order), balance is lost and darkness tips the scales to tragic outcomes. As such, an individual's fall to the dark side should be a rejection of the light and a microcosm of that by throwing the *personal* balance out of whack.

A Sith should be one huge step beyond that and essentially become a slave to dark impulses. Embracing the dark side so much that the light side has no influence. In AOTC, Anakin wasn't nearly there yet. And because of his ultimate redemption, there's enough doubt that he was even fully there in ROTS.

The whole point of Anakin's redemption in ROTJ is that Luke was right when sensing conflict and asserting that the light had not been fully extinguished. If we accept that, then Anakin was never truly a slave to the dark, but couldn't recognize it until faced with the choice to break free from it to save his son.

I hope there's something in this that is of use to you, but I'm much more enthusiastic about my upcoming response to your subsequent post.

"Anger, fear, aggression; the dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice."

Yoda's teaching do suggest that once you start giving an inch to the Dark Side, it will eventually take a mile with almost no hope for turning back regardless of whether you want to or not.

There was a theme going back to the story meetings for ESB that the light and dark sides of the Force are supposed to be used in proper balance, and that the Jedi actually are even required to use the dark side for anything aggressive (which included the likes of telekinesis, mind control, and any form of attacking) which is why it was so important for them to only use such skills when they were calm. Using the Force when highly emotional or frivolously just gives more opportunities for a Jedi to start to become intoxicated by it, which is why screwing around with floating pears to impress a girl was highly frowned upon.

So with that in mind it does seem that in ROTS we were witnessing Anakin being systematically "consumed" scene by scene (hence the remorse, hence the tears) as his voluntary footsteps down that path finally gave way to fully being dominated and unable to turn back.

Thanks guys.

After some consideration I think I may be willing to let go of my long-held objection in principle to Anakin killing the younglings and instead adopt Khev's previously stated position that he didn't like it either but only because it would have been much cooler to see Anakin easily taking apart adult Jedi to show him being this prodigy he was supposed to be.

I had been viewing the killing of the younglings from a perspective that in real life we don't forgive killers of children and we don't see - or care to see - any redemption for such people. I'm inclined to think that evil is generated from within us as individuals. We can blame whatever we want but ultimately it comes down to our own character, morals and choices.

However with Star Wars, we have the Force. The Force is said to be generated by all living things but - it seems to me, that means it exists externally and it influences back upon those living things. It has a good side and a dark side and it sort of amorally offers up both to the force-sensitives. Anakin allows the dark side in and in reaction to anything that doesn't go his way he allows it to take over rather than pushing back against it as he was supposed to. His culpability can be seen to be that one choice but his evil deeds themselves are the dark side (Vader) in action. It doesn't deprive him of awareness (at least not early on), Anakin knows what it has made him do (hence the tears) and perhaps his further culpability is when he could have used his feelings of guilt to motivate him to cast the dark side out - but circumstances, the influence of Palpatine and the things he wants to achieve (attain the power to save Padme from death) mean he continues to put up no fight against the dark and it (the Sith persona Vader) ultimately consumes him (almost) completely. Vader killed the younglings. Anakin failed to stop him.

What do you think? Am I getting what you guys were saying or have I just made up a bunch of unrelated gobbledygook?

Because uncertain the future is, and the turn/redemption depended much more on Anakin than on Luke. Luke's appeals to his father didn't keep Vader from dueling his son and even threatening Leia to compel Luke to come out and fight (thus, either join him or die). Vader only turned when Luke's death was an imminent certainty.

If you're going to embrace my interpretation that Yoda and Kenobi had at least a glimmer of hope that Luke could bring Anakin back to the light, then you have to believe that Yoda and Obi-Wan also knew that Luke wouldn't win him over with spoken appeals. Something as simplistic as that would've been turning darksiders back to the light with ease all along, as surely Anakin wasn't the first Jedi to fall. Instead, Anakin would be brought back by not being willing to allow his son to fall as he did, or to be killed.

But Yoda's admonition that always in motion the future is means that Luke shouldn't be encouraged to face Vader expecting not to have to fight for his life. It would be utterly irresponsible of both masters to encourage their pupil to win Vader over with "love" if there was any chance of Vader truly being irredeemable. Promoting a false hope in Luke would be dangerous (and unnecessary).

I'm not proposing that Yoda and Obi-Wan were working with any assumption of certainty as to the outcome. Only hope based on strong supposition by way of *some* clairvoyance. As such, they needed to prepare Luke to be on guard and defend himself. Kinda like this: "Let's make sure that Luke goes in with a sword and not an olive branch. If Anakin is still reachable, he'll only be won over by his own existing feelings and Luke won't be able to create those feelings in him. But if he can't be reached, even by love for his son, then we can't let this kid go in with false hope and just become another of Palpatine's dark puppets. If Luke must kill Vader to survive, then that's how it has to be and we're still screwed."

That's the way I rationalize it. Your mileage may vary.

No that's very good. I accept.

 

[ZE_501]

The irony, of course, is that the outcome ended up being Vader lived to be the one who killed the much more evil Palpatine, ultimately ending the Empire and sparing who-knows-how-many more from being tortured and/or murdered.

Cold comfort to the ones Vader burned, blasted, bisected, choked, smashed, cut etc.

And all of this based on half-baked (in-universe and out) prophecies.

I LOL.

And you're operating on the assumption that Vader's death wouldn't change anything. Nothing is written in stone for this pimped out property. At this point I'm pretty sure the scripts are written in crayon.

 

[jye4ever]

Thanks guys.

After some consideration I think I may be willing to let go of my long-held objection in principle to Anakin killing the younglings and instead adopt Khev's previously stated position that he didn't like it either but only because it would have been much cooler to see Anakin easily taking apart adult Jedi to show him being this prodigy he was supposed to be.

I had been viewing the killing of the younglings from a perspective that in real life we don't forgive killers of children and we don't see - or care to see - any redemption for such people. I'm inclined to think that evil is generated from within us as individuals. We can blame whatever we want but ultimately it comes down to our own character, morals and choices.

However with Star Wars, we have the Force. The Force is said to be generated by all living things but - it seems to me, that means it exists externally and it influences back upon those living things. It has a good side and a dark side and it sort of amorally offers up both to the force-sensitives. Anakin allows the dark side in and in reaction to anything that doesn't go his way he allows it to take over rather than pushing back against it as he was supposed to. His culpability can be seen to be that one choice but his evil deeds themselves are the dark side (Vader) in action. It doesn't deprive him of awareness (at least not early on), Anakin knows what it has made him do (hence the tears) and perhaps his further culpability is when he could have used his feelings of guilt to motivate him to cast the dark side out - but circumstances, the influence of Palpatine and the things he wants to achieve (attain the power to save Padme from death) mean he continues to put up no fight against the dark and it (the Sith persona Vader) ultimately consumes him (almost) completely. Vader killed the younglings. Anakin failed to stop him.

What do you think? Am I getting what you guys were saying or have I just made up a bunch of unrelated gobbledygook?



No that's very good. I accept.

Oh good i’m happy you are more accepting of Anakin killing younglings…

 

[TaliBane]

The younglings represent this creepy reboot of all things force and Jedi (and lightsabers, and force powers, etc) that occurred with the PT.

The force went from this thing potentially anyone could be a part of to something only a small number of gifted people could (midi blood test or otherwise,) and the Jedi went from wandering badass samurai warriors to a weird, boring, bureaucratic cult (with dialog to match) that has all these 8 yo kids living in this giant, ominous Blade Runner building.

So the slaughter of the younglings was really just an extension of something that was already kinda perverted and weird anyway.

 

[punisher1974]

Shame they created this Reva character I get what they were going for with the younglings and the idea kind of works but the execution left a lot to be desired.

Had the series focused on the relationship between Obi and Vader (and Owen) it would’ve been a must revisit every year level of quality especially since the existing writing between Obi and Vader was already of high caliber!!!

Holy missed opportunity!

I agree. If they stuck to more streamlined story most of us probably envisioned it would have been much better. The Vader/Anakin parts with Obi Wan were really well done. You could see the emotion in both of them and the flashback scene with them sparring was great at showing the differences between them. In the duel of episode 6 of the show it was awesome seeing the duel and Vader having to hold his ground against Obi Wan and 2 handing his saber. My favorite fight scene was Vader steamrolling Obi Wan trying to physically overpower him when he couldn't just win by using his lightsaber.