Captain America: Civil War (May 6, 2016)

[Sweet Rabbit]

 

[thecapn]

I saw this yesterday. I have to say I haven't read through this whole thread, so I apologize. The action was amazing, and I love how the Russo bros' stunts look. Better than Whedon's, and on par with TWS. Just beautifully choreographed. I liked that everyone had their moments, even people with tiny parts like Ant-Man and Scarlet Witch. It showed what made all of these people tick. The banter between Falcon and Winter Soldier was great. And usually telling (at least for me), my non-comic-movie-fan wife, who I drag to all of these, got so invested that she loudly gasped

Spoiler

when IM pulled off WS's arm.

But the storyline felt thin. The motivation for everyone to fight felt a bit forced. I feel like there could've been more time spent on coming to some sort of compromise - I feel like these characters have known each other for so long that it was worth a shot. And both IM and Cap felt like exaggerated versions of themselves, hell-bent on proving they were right. IM more so than Cap. Zemo was fine, and I thought that the basic premise of taking responsibility for your actions and dealing with the not-so-great consequences when you have good intentions made a lot of sense after AoU. But the "what-is-this-guy up to" points felt weak compared to TWS. Sharon got the short end of the stick.

Speaking of Sharon, did anyone else feel that there were certain points that just seemed like they came out of nowhere?

Spoiler

- Cap kissing Sharon: We've barely hinted that he liked her for a few seconds (at his best girl's funeral, no less), and then he kisses her and she acts like it's a long time coming? Huh? I know they're together in the comics but that felt rushed.

- IM attacking WS: Seriously? You know Cap's told IM about Bucky being brainwashed into doing things he didn't want to. I'd understand wanting to hit him. I'd even understand beating him up. But IM is literally in a blind rage to kill him AND Cap for getting in his way. I didn't like Tony before (egotistical rich boy!) but that just pushed me over the edge into hating him. It just seems out of character to go that far. I get that he killed your mom. But he couldn't help it, and you KNOW THAT. I feel like IM is better than that. Maybe he's taking out his frustrations with Pepper? And his feelings about the dead kid? If so, they don't get that across very well.

- Cap and WS: I get that he's your friend "til the end of the line." I get that you've been looking for him for years. You need to find him and help him. It's been your main focus all this time. But, don't you think there's a point where you need to let him go in to the authorities? If you think he didn't do what he said he did, investigate it. Figure it out. Protect him from T'Challa while you do that. But don't fight the cops! I get that Cap was trying to keep Bucky from hurting them, but he was also trying to help him escape. That doesn't help anything, and with the Accords in play, it just makes it worse. Again, he's a pushed to caricature-version of himself.

And then we come to Zemo's plan.

Ok. So he can't beat the Avengers directly, so he wants to get them to fight themselves. Cool. He got supremely lucky that the Accords came into play, then, cuz he obviously had nothing to do with that. Had nothing to do with Crossbones in Lagos either. Had nothing to do with what brought Wakanda into the whole thing. And yet, he was already planning his whole scheme before that.

So, his master plan to bring them to blows is to blame WS for a terrorist attack on the Accords building (which, again, he was lucky to have happening). He couldn't have predicted T'Challah's father's death and his involvement as BP, so let's leave all that out. He knows Cap will try to help Bucky and go after him. This may put him at odds with the rest of his team. MAY. Falcon will probably side with Cap, ok cool. So that'd be a bit of conflict.

How, exactly, could he know that Cap wouldn't get Bucky away to safety? And that he'd be taken to one particular secure place in Berlin? Then he found out where they get their power from and builds an EMP to knock out the power grid, because no highly-secure Govt building would have a backup power generator that would automatically kick in immediately in the 21st Century, noooo (would've made more sense if the EMP had gone off AT THE BUILDING to shut down all electronic devices, IMHO). But we're to assume that he knows exactly where they'll take Bucky, and all of the building's safeguards. He also is able to somehow find out that there's a the UN psychologist coming in, who he is, takes him out, and replaces him. Which is funny, because they say he was wearing prosthesis to look like the guy, and yet, he never seems to be wearing any when he's talking to Bucky. And there's no high-tech fingerprint scanner like on my PC to deny him entry to this high-tech building? Jeez, their security contractor should be shot.

So he gets to Bucky specifically to ask him questions about what happened in 1991, like he asked the other guy. Obviously, he already knows what happened that night. It's the only way the plan makes any sense. If Bucky hadn't been involved, there would be no point to the ENTIRE PLAN. Oh, and where did that security footage come from, exactly? Bucky doesn't have anything on him. Did the guy have it at the beginning in Cleveland? If so, then couldn't we have skipped this whole part and just blame the attack on Bucky and watch IM and Cap duke it out over him? Why wait to reveal it til the end?

So apparently, the reasoning on holding off on the footage reveal is because Zemo has a secondary plan. He wants to get rid of all superhumans, apparently, because he wants Bucky to tell him where his buddies are hibernating in Siberia. Cap thinks he's going to bring them back and control them (a reasonable hypothesis). But no, he wants to kill them...just to lure Cap and Bucky there?

Ok, so Zemo decides when to reveal that the psychologist is dead, and that, in turn, leads to the govt figuring out who he is. And he knows IM will get wind of it and say hey, maybe Cap was right. But how does he know IM will go to Siberia? That all three will show up at the same time, and that IM will come alone, even, so there's no one unbiased who could stop the fight and say hey, you guys need to take a chill pill?

Unlike BvS, the bad guy's plot is very clear. And the theme of dealing with repercussions goes through so many characters - Wanda, Cap, Bucky, IM, T'Challah. But it just relies on so many things that were completely outside of his control, and that - acting alone - there's NO WAY he could've known. Seriously, he had to have an inside guy with the UN folks. It's the only way he could've known some of this.

Look, I LIKE the basic idea. It just, I think, needed a few rewrites to get to the point where it make sense. What really annoyed me in the list above was just how caricature-ish Cap and IM became.

 

[EVILFACE]

Yea that was my only problem with the flick is the initial conflict was felt very forced. Though the stipulations on the Avengers had solid merit. Tony and Banner are responsible for everything Ultron related. Scarlet Witches actions directly killed innocent people. A team like this should have restrictions.

Tonys action at the end was very justified and I don't think anyone would have reacted different. It didn't end as I thought it would. I was expecting WS to get the upper hand on IM and not stopping and then Cap having to put him down to stop him.

I enjoyed most everything else. Panther was kewl. Ant Man wasn't quite as lame. Hawkeye was still lame. Crossbones was a joke. Spidey was greatly depowered, but rocked. I 'd at the steel arm grab. I 'd at the seat joke.

I still liked TWS more.

 

[jye4ever]

CB was appropriately used in the sense that you can't have every baddie being a difficult challenge to beat, you need a mid level heavy being moderately easy to take out as a way to demonstrate and remind us just how powerful and talented the primary hero are.

Besides, the movie isn't called Cap v Crossbone.

This movie easily surpassed the action beats from TWS, one can point out not surprising considering the talent behind it, but still not an easy task.

 

[daikkenaurora]

I thought the movie was good but TWS just seems better to me.

 

[EVILFACE]

TWS seemed a bit tighter. CW was a little long winded.

And yea, Black Widow could have taken 'Bones down herself. Chick was knocking out his heavy geared soldiers with a single punch. And peps were nitpicking Batman tossing dudes into walls....

 

[chewblacca]

The Winter Soldier was a more straight forward movie than Civil War. Civil War is a more convoluted movie.

 

[jye4ever]

I felt that the tone from CW was handled better than the espionage lite tone from TWS.

I loved the dichotomy between the small personal drama at the core of the plot to the very large group affected by it.

 

[spindrift]

CW was uneven and choppy and overstuffed- oh wait that's what some of you say about my fav BvS!!!!!

Yeah CW was good but nowhere near TWS of TFA....very enjoyable but I know watching it not on the level , to me, as IM, GoTG or even Avengers. I do feel like it stopped and started constantly and my biggest gripe is about "light fun" airport scene feeling like a totally different film than the intensity/serious conflicts in the rest of movie- and the reason is because it features the "family friendly Spidey" in action. Great to see Cap almost getting his a** handed to him by Spidey.

 

[spindrift]

I saw this yesterday. I have to say I haven't read through this whole thread, so I apologize. The action was amazing, and I love how the Russo bros' stunts look. Better than Whedon's, and on par with TWS. Just beautifully choreographed. I liked that everyone had their moments, even people with tiny parts like Ant-Man and Scarlet Witch. It showed what made all of these people tick. The banter between Falcon and Winter Soldier was great. And usually telling (at least for me), my non-comic-movie-fan wife, who I drag to all of these, got so invested that she loudly gasped

Spoiler

when IM pulled off WS's arm.

But the storyline felt thin. The motivation for everyone to fight felt a bit forced. I feel like there could've been more time spent on coming to some sort of compromise - I feel like these characters have known each other for so long that it was worth a shot. And both IM and Cap felt like exaggerated versions of themselves, hell-bent on proving they were right. IM more so than Cap. Zemo was fine, and I thought that the basic premise of taking responsibility for your actions and dealing with the not-so-great consequences when you have good intentions made a lot of sense after AoU. But the "what-is-this-guy up to" points felt weak compared to TWS. Sharon got the short end of the stick.

Speaking of Sharon, did anyone else feel that there were certain points that just seemed like they came out of nowhere?

Spoiler

- Cap kissing Sharon: We've barely hinted that he liked her for a few seconds (at his best girl's funeral, no less), and then he kisses her and she acts like it's a long time coming? Huh? I know they're together in the comics but that felt rushed.

- IM attacking WS: Seriously? You know Cap's told IM about Bucky being brainwashed into doing things he didn't want to. I'd understand wanting to hit him. I'd even understand beating him up. But IM is literally in a blind rage to kill him AND Cap for getting in his way. I didn't like Tony before (egotistical rich boy!) but that just pushed me over the edge into hating him. It just seems out of character to go that far. I get that he killed your mom. But he couldn't help it, and you KNOW THAT. I feel like IM is better than that. Maybe he's taking out his frustrations with Pepper? And his feelings about the dead kid? If so, they don't get that across very well.

- Cap and WS: I get that he's your friend "til the end of the line." I get that you've been looking for him for years. You need to find him and help him. It's been your main focus all this time. But, don't you think there's a point where you need to let him go in to the authorities? If you think he didn't do what he said he did, investigate it. Figure it out. Protect him from T'Challa while you do that. But don't fight the cops! I get that Cap was trying to keep Bucky from hurting them, but he was also trying to help him escape. That doesn't help anything, and with the Accords in play, it just makes it worse. Again, he's a pushed to caricature-version of himself.

And then we come to Zemo's plan.

Ok. So he can't beat the Avengers directly, so he wants to get them to fight themselves. Cool. He got supremely lucky that the Accords came into play, then, cuz he obviously had nothing to do with that. Had nothing to do with Crossbones in Lagos either. Had nothing to do with what brought Wakanda into the whole thing. And yet, he was already planning his whole scheme before that.

So, his master plan to bring them to blows is to blame WS for a terrorist attack on the Accords building (which, again, he was lucky to have happening). He couldn't have predicted T'Challah's father's death and his involvement as BP, so let's leave all that out. He knows Cap will try to help Bucky and go after him. This may put him at odds with the rest of his team. MAY. Falcon will probably side with Cap, ok cool. So that'd be a bit of conflict.

How, exactly, could he know that Cap wouldn't get Bucky away to safety? And that he'd be taken to one particular secure place in Berlin? Then he found out where they get their power from and builds an EMP to knock out the power grid, because no highly-secure Govt building would have a backup power generator that would automatically kick in immediately in the 21st Century, noooo (would've made more sense if the EMP had gone off AT THE BUILDING to shut down all electronic devices, IMHO). But we're to assume that he knows exactly where they'll take Bucky, and all of the building's safeguards. He also is able to somehow find out that there's a the UN psychologist coming in, who he is, takes him out, and replaces him. Which is funny, because they say he was wearing prosthesis to look like the guy, and yet, he never seems to be wearing any when he's talking to Bucky. And there's no high-tech fingerprint scanner like on my PC to deny him entry to this high-tech building? Jeez, their security contractor should be shot.

So he gets to Bucky specifically to ask him questions about what happened in 1991, like he asked the other guy. Obviously, he already knows what happened that night. It's the only way the plan makes any sense. If Bucky hadn't been involved, there would be no point to the ENTIRE PLAN. Oh, and where did that security footage come from, exactly? Bucky doesn't have anything on him. Did the guy have it at the beginning in Cleveland? If so, then couldn't we have skipped this whole part and just blame the attack on Bucky and watch IM and Cap duke it out over him? Why wait to reveal it til the end?

So apparently, the reasoning on holding off on the footage reveal is because Zemo has a secondary plan. He wants to get rid of all superhumans, apparently, because he wants Bucky to tell him where his buddies are hibernating in Siberia. Cap thinks he's going to bring them back and control them (a reasonable hypothesis). But no, he wants to kill them...just to lure Cap and Bucky there?

Ok, so Zemo decides when to reveal that the psychologist is dead, and that, in turn, leads to the govt figuring out who he is. And he knows IM will get wind of it and say hey, maybe Cap was right. But how does he know IM will go to Siberia? That all three will show up at the same time, and that IM will come alone, even, so there's no one unbiased who could stop the fight and say hey, you guys need to take a chill pill?

Unlike BvS, the bad guy's plot is very clear. And the theme of dealing with repercussions goes through so many characters - Wanda, Cap, Bucky, IM, T'Challah. But it just relies on so many things that were completely outside of his control, and that - acting alone - there's NO WAY he could've known. Seriously, he had to have an inside guy with the UN folks. It's the only way he could've known some of this.

Look, I LIKE the basic idea. It just, I think, needed a few rewrites to get to the point where it make sense. What really annoyed me in the list above was just how caricature-ish Cap and IM became.

Excellent points- I agree too much was out of his hands and alot had to bear some kind of effects to make his plan more workable.

In other words the story wasn't that strong and plot holes galore, same old thing these movies just ignore...

 

[jye4ever]

CW was uneven and choppy and overstuffed- oh wait that's what some of you say about my fav BvS!!!!!

Yeah CW was good but nowhere near TWS of TFA....very enjoyable but I know watching it not on the level , to me, as IM, GoTG or even Avengers. I do feel like it stopped and started constantly and my biggest gripe is about "light fun" airport scene feeling like a totally different film than the intensity/serious conflicts in the rest of movie- and the reason is because it features the "family friendly Spidey" in action. Great to see Cap almost getting his a** handed to him by Spidey.

The movie didn't feel choppy to me, if anything it flowed as smooth as pee after 3 cups of coffee.

 

[Starscream Soundwave]

There were a lot of characters and a lot of things going on in CW, but everything was balanced really well and it flowed pretty nicely. That's the difference between a well made film and a poorly made one.


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[chewblacca]

Yeah, I agree everything in CW flowed to its own conclusion nicely. Instead of some big action scene where buildings are destroyed and gratuitous destruction happens, like at the end of both Avengers movies and The Winter Soldier, we get the destruction of the Avengers and their relationships.

 

[moose]

Well I said Zemo's final plan, which might have been luck but him having the footage ready to be played leads me to believe he could predict the future [emoji38] either way I think that Zemo's involvement really hurt the narrative, Like I said before, they could have just used Hulk as the catalyst to provoke the government into making the registration act, and then the rest of the movie could have been about a battle of ideologies which wasn't in the movie nearly enough as I thought it would be and probably should have been considering the title of the movie.

I see a lot of people saying that about Tony's reaction was justified but I just found it to be bad forced writing. He knows Bucky wasn't in control, Hydra was, how can he be upset at Bucky when Tony literally flew there ignoring orders to help them for that very reason?




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Marvel always like to keep it's heroes virtuous, free of sin, they don't have a dark side and when they do a " bad decision" it's a result of outside manipulation Tony was manipulated to build Ultron by Wanda, him and Cap were manipulated to fight because of Zemo. Vision hits Rhodes by accident, they toned it down considerably from what it was in the comics. No back door deals with villians, no dirty fighting they basically had a playground school fight were in the comics it was a true civil war. Cap got his ass kicked and then in turn beat the cap out of tony. Not to mention the beautiful ending with caps death they tied everything up on a neat bow with a letter.

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[chewblacca]

Maybe Ironman should have been forced to beat Cap so bad he thinks he killed him, and before he can bring winter soldier in, Black Panther steps in and stops it all. He disables Stark, carries Cap's body to his ship, takes them all away and leaves Stark there thinking Cap is dead. Back in Wakanda we see that Cap is still alive and Bucky is put in carbon freeze. The Stark gets a call saying that all of Caps team has been broken out of the raft. Cue credits.

 

[moose]

Maybe Ironman should have been forced to beat Cap so bad he thinks he killed him, and before he can bring winter soldier in, Black Panther steps in and stops it all. He disables Stark, carries Cap's body to his ship, takes them all away and leaves Stark there thinking Cap is dead. Back in Wakanda we see that Cap is still alive and Bucky is put in carbon freeze. The Stark gets a call saying that all of Caps team has been broken out of the raft. Cue credits.

Maybe I just wanted the war in civil war it was much more of a play ground school fight at the airport were they were horsing around and it ended badly for Rhodes . They did not hold back in the comic they should not have in the movie. I am sure they will all get their collective ass kicked in Infinity War 1 and probably have at least 2 deaths , only to be followed by the counter attack in Infinity war Part 2 for a conclusion.

 

[jye4ever]

Part of me still wanted to see Cap

Spoiler

killed off

 

[daikkenaurora]

TWS seemed a bit tighter. CW was a little long winded.

And yea, Black Widow could have taken 'Bones down herself. Chick was knocking out his heavy geared soldiers with a single punch. And peps were nitpicking Batman tossing dudes into walls....

I noticed that. She must be taking Super Solider Steroids.

 

[chewblacca]

I think they were friends with a disagreement. The only one who seemed to be playing it real was Wanda who was new to the group.

 

[IrishJedi]

Part of me still wanted to see War Machine

Spoiler

killed off

Fixed that.

Seriously, though... Will Marvel have the cajones to kill off any characters (besides Pietro) again? I still can't forgive AoS for bringing back Coulson and robbing THE AVENGERS of its emotional punch.