Doctor Who - Spoilers!

[pixletwin]

Edit: Ok, this helps with the end of time.

Works for me (and is indeed what I had assumed anyways
).

 

[Frank]

I've been thinking a great deal about that in particular. I've got a handfull of posabilities.

1) it IS a fixed moment in time, and that is how it ALLWAYS happened?

Devil's advocate: IF that's the case, then the events that take place in the End of time tv specials contradict it pretty solidly. Paradox of colossal proportions.

2) So long as the Universe as a whole percieves no change in the events of a fixed moment in time, then changes CAN occur. considering that to all outside observers, The end of the time war still led to the destruction of Gallifray and the Daleks, then all is well.

And he CAN save it.

"Gallifray Falls No More"

So the BIGGEST question then, how do the events of "the end of time" fit into the new timeline created by these events?

Does the Master Still die? or can he simply come back now?
If gallifray was not stuck in the vortex, dying and being reborn, and dying again all throught time, then how does the Matt smith regeneration take place?

so many questions.


Edit: Ok, this helps with the end of time.

The idea of DW no longer

Spoiler

being essentially the last of an extinct race (with notable exceptions)

is going to take some getting used to. Of course they could always bring

Spoiler

Gallifrey back only to see it destroyed

some other way (not by Who).

 

[Kamandi]

I think they've given the writers a great big loophole to bring back The Master.

Seeing the nature of Gallifrey's "end" (or freezing?) makes it implausible the Doctor is the only remaining Timelord. Certainly there were other Timelords offworld and at other points of time when the events of the Last Day of the Time War occur. The original impression I had from CE's Doctor was there wasn't even a Susan, or Romana, or Rama, etc... but now it's easy to see they are out there still.

What about the War Chief and War Lords? I've always suspected they are still around and certainly they wouldn't sit out the Time War.

Edit: The events of The End of Time still don't match up well to this episode. Gallifrey appeared briefly in our solar system during TEOT. That's a pretty big thing to skip over or recon. So it would seem DT's history is already somewhat re-written. We no longer know how he died.

 

[lerath666]

it Does well enough. it's not perfect, but it works.

 

[sueworld]

Well personally I think The Doctor is going to Find the Gallifrey again real soon.

 

[pixletwin]

I don't think anything has changed.

Hurt, Eccleston, and Tennant have always believed and will always believe that they destroyed Gallifrey by using the moment. But Gallifrey was never destroyed. It only appears to the Doctor that he changed time because he doesn't remember how events actually transpired.

Maybe I am just not understanding where the conflict is being seen.

 

[lerath666]

the biggest issue comes with the end of the end of time, when gallifray pops up in orbit around earth, pulled free of the time war. the doctor says something about how they are trapped in an endless loop fighting to the end of the war, everyone dying, then having it reset, and start over. living the last day of the war over and over and over again. He kinda aludes to instead of killing everyone, he trapped them there.

The timeline i posted before kinda sorta makes that work, but not perfectly.

HOWEVER, its good enough for me.

 

[Kamandi]

Whatever the effect might be for TEOT I think Smith probably keeps his memory going forward.

It was interesting to me that Hurt pointed out the Doctor's relative youth and immaturity. Now that his dredd of Hurt's actions are resolved he's a more mature Doctor in his next generation.

 

[pixletwin]

Yeah it's not such a glaring contradiction that I am bothered by it. I can easily explain it away for my own personal canon.

 

[pixletwin]

Whatever the effect might be for TEOT I think Smith probably keeps his memory going forward.

It was interesting to me that Hurt pointed out the Doctor's relative youth and immaturity. Now that his dredd of Hurt's actions are resolved he's a more mature Doctor in his next generation.

Oooo very good observation. I like that.

 

[Frank]

I don't think anything has changed.

Hurt, Eccleston, and Tennant have always believed and will always believe that they destroyed Gallifrey by using the moment. But Gallifrey was never destroyed. It only appears to the Doctor that he changed time because he doesn't remember how events actually transpired.

Maybe I am just not understanding where the conflict is being seen.

The essential backdrop with which we've become familiar with him as a sort of a lonely, roving,

Spoiler

"Last of the Mohicans"

type is being permanently altered for the audience. You can invent all sorts of plot devices, but in the end he ought to maintain that part of his persona.

So yeah for me,

Spoiler

Gallifrey must fall

once again.

 

[lerath666]

Possibly. just becuse he now knows that he saved it, will not undo the scarring he self-inflicted when he believed otherwise. Additionaly, Capaldi is being described as "the most energetic doctor" to date by Moffat and others working on the series.

 

[ProgMatinee]

The Eccelston plot device was manufactured for a certain gravitas to get the show running again, and make him a devil may care or as you put it, lonely roving sort.

We're way past needing that as a plot device anymore. IMO its fine (and welcome) to the reversal. At least they gave a nice storyline behind it.

For me, one thing I feel is a missed opportunity, and perhaps Eccelston being an a-hole prevented this, is they really should have shown the Hurt to Eccelston regeneration.

The second thing, and maybe I'm okay with it because Hurt was so good in his role, is could/should McGann have played the role?

 

[pixletwin]

I dunno. The "Lonely God" aspect of The Doctor isn't essential to the character at all. It worked fine without it for 27 years. I for one will be glad to put that element to rest going forward.

The Eccelston plot device was manufactured for a certain gravitas to get the show running again, and make him a devil may care or as you put it, lonely roving sort.

We're way past needing that as a plot device anymore. IMO its fine (and welcome) to the reversal. At least they gave a nice storyline behind it.

Yes. Precisely.

 

[Frank]

Possibly. just becuse he now knows that he saved it, will not undo the scarring he self-inflicted when he believed otherwise. Additionaly, Capaldi is being described as "the most energetic doctor" to date by Moffat and others working on the series.

Whoa, really? No small feat, that. More focused than frenetic I hope.

 

[lerath666]

The article i read had them comparing him to Tom Baker, and specificly referenced him "Literaly jumping about the set, quickly moving from place to place, and thing to thing in a way that defies his visable age"

 

[Magpie 7]

All of Hurt's story was written for Eccleston, when Eccleston wouldn't come back they just re-imagined that another Doctor fought in the Time War and rewrote it for Hurt.

 

[pixletwin]

All of Hurt's story was written for Eccleston, when Eccleston wouldn't come back they just re-imagined that another Doctor fought in the Time War and rewrote it for Hurt.

Well there is conflicting information from official sources on that. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Frank]

I dunno. The "Lonely God" aspect of The Doctor isn't essential to the character at all. It worked fine without it for 27 years. I for one will be glad to put that element to rest going forward.

Depends on who you talk to. His rebellion put him in the same spot and Gallifrey was in the

Spoiler

impermeable past for him.

Now that all that is changing (at least for a time) things could get

Spoiler

awfully crowded

for him just as it would for

Spoiler

Superman if suddenly the entire population of Krypton

showed up somewhere ready to go.

 

[pixletwin]

Depends on who you talk to. His rebellion put him in the same spot and Gallifrey was in the impermeable past for him. Now that all that is changing (at least for a time) things could get

Spoiler

awfully crowded

for him just as it would for

Spoiler

Superman if suddenly the entire population of Krypton

showed up somewhere ready to go.

But how long can you play that card before it gets tired? It was already starting to feel tired to me by series 5.

That being said, the Whoniverse didn't feel overly stuffed with TIme Lods pre-2005 so I see no reason why it should post 2013.

OT: Why the spoiler tags?