General NBA Discussion

[Wake]

Melo is a muuuuuch upgraded stretch-4. He's got 5 times the skill and athleticism of Battier/Lewis. But yea, I'm my ideal scenario heat get a Lowry type PG. Curry would be absolutely DEADLY on the Heat

 

[lukewarm]

LOL…. You realize miami has 60 million in cap space if they opt out right? That the organization is the second most stable and coach-tenured behind the spurs? That pat riley has delivered on his promises? That Florida has no state income tax? That Cleveland is in disarray with no coach an oft-injured Kyrie Irving and a failed first round pick last season with no hopes of immediately contending? That the knicks are in even worse shape seeing as how both tyson chandler and amare stoudamire are injury-prone max level players with a rookie head coach? That the lakers have about 25 million in cap space dedicated to one player who is returning from being injured all year in Kobe AND the fact that he's a notorious alpha male that would never really coexist with Lebron? Do you know anything about basketball or the league?

Wow, did I just insult your girlfriend or something. What a jerk.

 

[azurepred]

The heat don't need one big star, they just need upgraded, younger team guys. Guys that were so important to them in the past just don't produce anymore. Not sure if Allen will retire, but I doubt they bring back chalmers if they can upgrade. Battier and Haslem are prolly done too. I don't think Miami will add any big names, just change out the role players. Chi would have to give up prolly Noah, another young starter and a draft pick to get love. Rose and love alone will not be enough to beat Miami or Ind. They still have no bench. Lebron won't be going anywhere either. Riley and Spoelstra is the best option for him unless he jumped ship to SA.

 

[The Josh]

They would have to give up Noah but Gibson, Butler and maybe both first round picks is what I've seen. They're bench is alright it's been better but it's not awful.

 

[azurepred]

yea, it's alright, but you can't win deep in the playoffs with just alright unless your starting unit is stacked. Chi would be giving up too much with that deal. Minn would prolly do it in a heartbeat. I know I would. Noah is the heart of Chi and those 3 guys are their best defenders. No idea where Melo would go, but I think he still has a huge ego, he has to be the top dog and still wants to get paid. I doubt he would take a pay cut to win. Brook could prolly give him the best of both worlds I guess.

 

[The Josh]

It's a lot and too much I agree. Will be curious to see what happens. I do think Chicago has a decent enough chance with Melo.

 

[sarakawa]

Meat hook, I agree with most of what you're saying. I was having this discussion with a coworker earlier. While winning 9-10 rings would clearly be insane and impressive, if all James does is take less money and go to different teams or invite other superstars just to win titles, there is no way I will consider him better than Jordan...or Kobe...or Duncan. It's one thing to be a declining player and then take a paycut to chase a ring near the end of you career. I still see what he is doing as kind of a cop out. Those guys basically decided they need a superteam to win titles while a team like San Antonio does it over a decade doing it the right way. If creating these "super teams" stops, I think the league will become more competitive and the talent will get distributed more equally. It's sad that the new CBA was implemented to prevent this and it just promotes it thanks to Miami...and then the league stops the lakers from getting CP3 even though they would have given up Gasol...laughable. Another rant over...go Spurs!!!

 

[The Josh]

Pretty sure the last CBA had something in it to prevent super teams. Not encourage it.

 

[sarakawa]

Pretty sure the last CBA had something in it to prevent super teams. Not encourage it.

I know that's what I said. The new CBA is supposed to prevent it yet look at what they are talking about with melo possibly joining the big 3 in Miami.

 

[lukewarm]

There is only a big one left in Miami.

 

[The Josh]

I know that's what I said. The new CBA is supposed to prevent it yet look at what they are talking about with melo possibly joining the big 3 in Miami.

I misread it then.

 

[azurepred]

Meat hook, I agree with most of what you're saying. I was having this discussion with a coworker earlier. While winning 9-10 rings would clearly be insane and impressive, if all James does is take less money and go to different teams or invite other superstars just to win titles, there is no way I will consider him better than Jordan...or Kobe...or Duncan. It's one thing to be a declining player and then take a paycut to chase a ring near the end of you career. I still see what he is doing as kind of a cop out. Those guys basically decided they need a superteam to win titles while a team like San Antonio does it over a decade doing it the right way. If creating these "super teams" stops, I think the league will become more competitive and the talent will get distributed more equally. It's sad that the new CBA was implemented to prevent this and it just promotes it thanks to Miami...and then the league stops the lakers from getting CP3 even though they would have given up Gasol...laughable. Another rant over...go Spurs!!!

We've had this debate before. Let's not act like Duncan is surrounded by average players now or in the past. He has had his own group of 3 all stars for a long time, along with the best current coach. It does take 2-3 all stars on a team to win it all. Let's not forget Parker was MVP one year too when they won, and if Leonard has a great game in a win tomorrow, he could just as easily win MVP of the finals this year . It's a little hypocritical to give a guy less credit cause he had to leave a team when he was surrounded by nothing, while other guys have been fortunate to have come in the league surrounded by talent from the get go.

The new CBA won't mean **** when it comes to super teams if guys are willing to take less money. Look at the nets, highest payroll . Nobody mentions them cause they lost.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

We've had this debate before. Let's not act like Duncan is surrounded by average players now or in the past. He has had his own group of 3 all stars for a long time, along with the best current coach. It does take 2-3 all stars on a team to win it all. Let's not forget Parker was MVP one year too when they won, and if Leonard has a great game in a win tomorrow, he could just as easily win MVP of the finals this year . It's a little hypocritical to give a guy less credit cause he had to leave a team when he was surrounded by nothing, while other guys have been fortunate to have come in the league surrounded by talent from the get go. .

And this is where many will disagree.

Lebron's Cavs teams racked up back to back 60+ win seasons and contrary to popular belief, he did not do it alone. Did he have a star studded cast like SA? No, but Cavs management was willing to do anything to keep him there and get any pieces he wanted so he had no reason to leave. The truth is he just couldn't take the heat of media scrutiny after losing and he clearly wasn't willing to stay and improve his game to overcome adversity in the post season.

If you're going to have the audacity to come into the league with 'The Chosen One' inked across your back , call yourself 'The King' before you win a goddamn thing in the league, and promise the CLE fan base a championship, you can't tuck tail and run to Miami when the going gets tough and expect people to respect you anymore.

 

[azurepred]

And this is where many will disagree.

Lebron's Cavs teams racked up back to back 60+ win seasons and contrary to popular belief, he did not do it alone. Did he have a star studded cast like SA? No, but Cavs management was willing to do anything to keep him there and get any pieces he wanted so he had no reason to leave. The truth is he just couldn't take the heat of media scrutiny after losing and he clearly wasn't willing to stay and improve his game to overcome adversity in the post season.

If you're going to have the audacity to come into the league with 'The Chosen One' inked across your back , call yourself 'The King' before you win a goddamn thing in the league, and promise the CLE fan base a championship, you can't tuck tail and run to Miami when the going gets tough and expect people to respect you anymore.

That last paragraph just shows how personally biased you are towards lebron. That cavs team was a great regular season team led by lebron and that's it. Willing to put anyone around lebron and actually doing so are two different things. End of the day, all that lousy owner and management could get lebron was Jamison, and shaq at the end of their careers and a coach who sucks . Before and after lebron, coach brown hasn't won anything. Moe Williams was a decent pick up, but he was a solid bench player who was starting. I guarantee anyone who says he had a lot of talent in cle just say so cause of their regular season stats, and never really watched them.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

That last paragraph just shows how personally biased you are towards lebron. That cavs team was a great regular season team led by lebron and that's it. Willing to put anyone around lebron and actually doing so are two different things. End of the day, all that lousy owner and management could get lebron was Jamison, and shaq at the end of their careers and a coach who sucks . Before and after lebron, coach brown hasn't won anything. Moe Williams was a decent pick up, but he was a solid bench player who was starting. I guarantee anyone who says he had a lot of talent in cle just say so cause of their regular season stats, and never really watched them.

It's not bias, it's good reasoning why I don't like him and clearly I'm not alone. Regardless, what player was available via FA or trade when James was in Cleveland that ownership refused or neglected to try and get him?

 

[The Josh]

I think one issue unspoken for Jordan is that your front office legacy starts to taint your playing legacy. Isaiah Thomas really was a clutch point guard. But he's remembered more now for driving the Knicks into the ground and being someone the other elite guys hated in his era. Joe Dumars was a great shooting guard, one of the few guys, besides Mitch Richmond, who could stifle Jordan with defense from time to time. But will be remembered for taking Darko and driving the Pistons into the ground. Kevin McHale was maybe the greatest low post player ever. But people don't talk about his Celtic days, they remember him killing off much of Garnetts prime and crushing his team over Joe Smith. Jordan keeps it up, his contrasting current legacy will be being a lousy GM/owner, who gave an embarrassing and tacky HOF speech and be more currently known for psychologically destroying Kwame Brown and Adam Morrison than more favorable memories of his playing days. James win 5-6 more rings while Jordan turns into the Dolemite version of James Dolan and I think history and legacy won't be as kind.

I'm sorry this paragraph is just nonsense. I don't think most basketball fans look at Jordan, Thomas, or Dumars and feel their playing days, which were all quite good are tarnished because of moves made as GM/Owners. Dumars even won a ring as a GM so he did pick Darko but he did something good as well. When I think of Jordan I think of the best player to ever play. I wish he had been better so far but now that he kind of gets out of his own way I think the Bobcats will get better. Jordan's HoF speech was awesome by the way. I loved it!

In Chicago, James wouldn't have to break his back on both ends of the floor.

He isn't coming to Chicago. We've given him too much crap when he's played in the United Center.

 

[azurepred]

It's not bias, it's good reasoning why I don't like him and clearly I'm not alone. Regardless, what player was available via FA or trade when James was in Cleveland that ownership refused or neglected to try and get him?

That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you to like him, but trying to get a FA or trying to make a trade doesn't mean anything to a player if it doesn't get done. Lebron could've cried like Kobe to get help, it prolly wouldn't have mattered. Nobody wants to play in Cle. Irving will leave when he gets the chance too. If Lebron was still in Cle, I'm confident he prolly wouldn't have any rings. Title teams need to have more than one all star. Even the last pistons team to win it all had basically their whole starting unit as all stars. That's what it takes, I can understand the hate for the initial heat stuff at first, but it's obvious he knew it takes stars to win it, but it also takes good role players too.

 

[jstep13]

We've had this debate before. Let's not act like Duncan is surrounded by average players now or in the past. He has had his own group of 3 all stars for a long time, along with the best current coach. It does take 2-3 all stars on a team to win it all. Let's not forget Parker was MVP one year too when they won, and if Leonard has a great game in a win tomorrow, he could just as easily win MVP of the finals this year . It's a little hypocritical to give a guy less credit cause he had to leave a team when he was surrounded by nothing, while other guys have been fortunate to have come in the league surrounded by talent from the get go.

If you can't see the difference between playing with the hand you're dealt versus asking for a re-deal so you can shortcut your way to victory then you're even more hopelessly clueless than I already knew.

 

[Y4NK33 PL4N3T]

That's fine, I'm not trying to convince you to like him, but trying to get a FA or trying to make a trade doesn't mean anything to a player if it doesn't get done. Lebron could've cried like Kobe to get help, it prolly wouldn't have mattered. Nobody wants to play in Cle. Irving will leave when he gets the chance too. If Lebron was still in Cle, I'm confident he prolly wouldn't have any rings. Title teams need to have more than one all star. Even the last pistons team to win it all had basically their whole starting unit as all stars. That's what it takes, I can understand the hate for the initial heat stuff at first, but it's obvious he knew it takes stars to win it, but it also takes good role players too.

I agree there needs to be more than one star, but who was the star available in FA or trade that CLE did not try to get for Lebron when he was there?

If you can't see the difference between playing with the hand you're dealt versus asking for a re-deal so you can shortcut your way to victory then you're even more hopelessly clueless than I already knew.

 

[sarakawa]

If you can't see the difference between playing with the hand you're dealt versus asking for a re-deal so you can shortcut your way to victory then you're even more hopelessly clueless than I already knew.

This is EXACTLY what i was trying to say as well...take nowitzki for example, played a lot of attrition seasons, paired with nash for a while, lost him, still hung tough, and earned a ring the old fashioned way. Sure they got the right pieces around him but he certainly didn't collude with other superstars and then leave his team to JUST get rings...I respect that. Lebron should stay in Miami and roll with the punches. He should not just leave cuz another team will have better superstars that he can win more rings with easier...that is just the wrong way to play the game, have some faith, have some loyalty, and have some ****ing pride for god sakes...