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Their last album definitely proved (as someone else said earlier) that their powers are waning. I think "Horizon" was the weakest thing they've done since the mid to late 90s-- and this is coming from someone who's loved nearly all of their records. It was great to see them rise up again in 2000, and in some ways I think they bested the emotion of that record with the release of Atomic Bomb... but yeah, I've been let down by them ever since. Anyway... there's no doubt they're still one of the greats, and one of the best live shows you'll ever see. ;)

All that said, I certainly wouldn't mind hearing them on another Batman soundtrack.

There was great songs in 2000, I rate Beautiful Day, Stuck in a moment and Walk on among their best. Atomic bomb had some decent songs but after that nothing.
 
There was also the matter of time. [B]That 23 years comfortably seperated these movies[/B] meant there was enough space for a generational gap.

My personal outlook is that anything before that magic 23 year mark might qualify as a "reboot" where they essentially ask the same viewing public to adopt a completely different vision from the one they previously accepted or rejected. This is much easier to do if the original was a flop. By the time 1966 came around, no cared or probably remembered the 1943 serial and certainly by 1989 no one cared about 1960's Batmania enough to keep Burton's version from flourishing.[/quote]

This is important, and is exactly why Sallah's claims that reboots happened before the modern cinematic era are false. "King Kong" may have been made several times, but they weren't "reboots."

"Reboots" imply a halting of momentum (from one series and audience to a different series, with the same audience). That is why "Batman 1989" was not a reboot, and that is why "King Kong" was not a reboot. There was no need to make it clear that these were different series, it was already implied (or in the case of "Captain America", nobody even knew about the others, so there was no momentum to combat and redirect).

[QUOTE="sallah, post: 5938837, member: 6630"]
Most of all- I'd like to be able to take my sons with me to a Batman movie, just like my Dad did when I was young.[/quote]

There have been 3 excellent Batman films that I'm sure they would have enjoyed, release in the last several years.

[quote]The Nolan films are geared towards an adult audience.[/quote]

This is not true, they're geared towards a general audience. Hence the cute kiddey moments and toned-down violence (which actually bring down the movie, if you ask me).

[quote]Not only are they a little dark for the 12 and under crowd... I gotta say that they are little boring and tedious as well (that isn't meant as a dig at Nolan fans, that is just my opinion, especially when giving a fatherly eye towards which movies will hold a kid's attention).[/quote]

Every kid I've talked to loves the Nolan movies - neither bored nor frightened of them. They're no darker or slower than the Star Wars movies, and we all ate them up as kids.

Feed a kid McDonalds and he'll eat fast food all his life. Feed a kid steak and he'll eat real food the rest of his life.

Which would you rather your kids develop an appreciation for? Shlocky blockbusters designed to sell toys, or dense movies with artistic merit?
 
U2 have a lot of classics but I think their powers have waned. I can't remember a single song from their last album. I will always listen to their greats however and because of those be open to new stuff they do, in case its good.


I do have to agree, I haven't heard much from them in the last few years and I do feel that after the 90's, they never quite reached the same level of awesome they did before. I did really love "how to dismantle an atomic bomb" though.
 
Me too. Batman inherently has some over-the-top elements (chiefly that he doesn't just get killed within his first week crimefighting :lol) but for me what contrasts him against most other "classic" comicbook heroes is that he seems right home in stories that have minimal sci-fi / fantasy elements, just as he can work well in more fantasy-and sci-fi-steeped stories (dueling an immortal, fighting a shapeshifter, or woman immune to every poison who controls plants or a man with sub-zero blood in his veins).

For me, Burton's movies had a great style aesthetic with some moodiness, Schumacher's movies had a great colorful 90's comic-booky feel with that dove even deeper into fantasy elements, and Nolan's movies focused the hard-edged grit and psychology of the character the best that has yet been done in live action.

Set-design wise though, Nolan's movies had very minimal changes to the real locations in which they were filmed and I could see why that turned some fans off and the good effect of it. The turn-off is that I didn't get a distinct feeling of "Gotham" , just a barely noticeably (and in many cases not-at-all) dressed up Chicago, New York, LA, Pittsburgh etc standing in for Gotham, so the city did not leave much impression on me. On the other hand, this is also a good thing since it feels like a very deliberate choice to avoid an overly stylized feel that might steal some of the focus away from where he wanted it...on the psychology and dynamics between characters. Substance over style. Before any Burtonites* jump on me I'm NOT saying the Burton films are without substance, or that the Nolan films are without style. They each had some of both, but put different weight on each part.

*See what I did there? BTW, I'm both a Burtonite AND a Nolanite. Not because I have to be. Now, because I choose to be. I even like some of what Schumacher did. :peace

Nolan filming in actual locations was one of the things I first loved about Batman Begins. As nice as Gotham City looked in Batman and Batman Returns, I always thought that it lacked depth and felt too much like a sound stage (...which it was). Where as I loved seeing Batman finally interact with a real city in Begins. Personally I believe you can have both the real interaction that comes with location shooting and still have the Gothic style of Gotham from the comics. It would just take a bit more creativity from a director interested enough to go this way.
 
This is not true, they're geared towards a general audience. Hence the cute kiddey moments and toned-down violence (which actually bring down the movie, if you ask me).

aside from that dumb kid in batman begins and those reeeally stupid "fake guns" in TDK, the movies are as far removed from anything remotely child-oriented you can get. the "humour" is extremely dry and only adults would get it.

the movies are just too damn serious, and I do NOT like my comic book movies THAT serious or gritty. there has to be a balance. I agree with the guy that said burton hit the sweet spot between adult and child friendly. pity the studio's really do not know how to get to that point again.

I really blame the fan nerds for this, thinking for some weird reason that a humourless movie is somehow "Good". umm no. its boring, and lame.
 
aside from that dumb kid in batman begins and those reeeally stupid "fake guns" in TDK, the movies are as far removed from anything remotely child-oriented you can get. the "humour" is extremely dry and only adults would get it.

I don't think any kid would understand the humor in Batman Returns, that's about as adult as it gets. Dark humor, Norman Bates references, Nixon, sexual innuendos? It would all go over their heads. I'd even say as far as "age appropriateness" goes, Batman Returns is the most adult and non-kid friendly of all 7 films.

Kids have a different perception of things. I think all of the movies have something a child could latch onto and enjoy. Batman, The Dark Knight, Batman and Robin, etc. there's something in there for them even if it's something as superficial as "Batman punching a guy".
 
aside from that dumb kid in batman begins and those reeeally stupid "fake guns" in TDK, the movies are as far removed from anything remotely child-oriented you can get. the "humour" is extremely dry and only adults would get it.

the movies are just too damn serious, and I do NOT like my comic book movies THAT serious or gritty. there has to be a balance. I agree with the guy that said burton hit the sweet spot between adult and child friendly. pity the studio's really do not know how to get to that point again.

I really blame the fan nerds for this, thinking for some weird reason that a humourless movie is somehow "Good". umm no. its boring, and lame.

In your opinion of course. In plenty of other people's opinions, and not just the "fan nerds" (who is that a dig at anyway? comic book fans? Batman fans?) the Nolan movies are great. Just as in plenty of people's opinion's the Burton movies are great. If YOU didn't see or appreciate the humor in the movie, that doesn't make it humorless.
 
In your opinion of course. In plenty of other people's opinions, and not just the "fan nerds" (who is that a dig at anyway? comic book fans? Batman fans?) the Nolan movies are great. Just as in plenty of people's opinion's the Burton movies are great. If YOU didn't see or appreciate the humor in the movie, that doesn't make it humorless.

Truth. Almost every seen between Bruce and Fox was pretty funny IMO. Expecially when Bruce first starts to get his "toys" from him.
 
I prefer sparse and subtle deadpan humor than the over-the-top in-you-face campfest of the Shumacher films and Adam West show.
 
Yeah the Nolan films don't have a lot of humorous moments but they aren't really supposed to. Batman isn't really that type of character in comics or on screen. The humor that he has is pretty much always subtle or twisted (Joker, Harley, etc). The only time humor in Batman worked was the Adam West show and that was because of the fact that it was written in the Silver Age which generally is goofier to begin with.
 
People said man of steel had no humor, which it certainly did

I especially loved the "goes downhill after the first kiss" line with Lois and Supes, as the city is obliterated around them and the ash of the innocent rains from the sky.
 
Oh yeah, I was rolling on the floor it was so humorous.

yeah that's what I mean about the Nolan movies in general. they just totally lack any memorable humouress comic book moments. this is why I will always prefer the original Supermans and Batmans over the "modern" ones. the older ones had a balance of humour and serious story, for the most part. the new movies seem so hell bent on being ultra serious/gritty whatever that it makes the movies NOT FUN to watch and does not lend itself to repeat viewings like the older movies do.

remember when Hollywood used to TRY to entertain you? nowadays theres so much pretentious self righteousness especially in the comic book community that they have forgotten how to entertain and make memorable films. I honestly preferred it when the studio's didn't give a sh** what the fans thought and the directors were allowed to have there unique visual image on screen. nowadays batman is probably the blandest looking superhero ever, thanks to Nolan and his *lack of* vision.
 
Really? I find Batman Begins just as rewatchable as Batman 89, and I certainly watch the rest of the trilogy more often that Returns and Schumacher's films. They're dark and gritty, sure, but that's the interpretation they were going for, and it's just as valid as 89's or Returns'. I think what you take for "pretentious self righteousness" might be seen as good film making by others.
 
yeah that's what I mean about the Nolan movies in general. they just totally lack any memorable humouress comic book moments. this is why I will always prefer the original Supermans and Batmans over the "modern" ones. the older ones had a balance of humour and serious story, for the most part. the new movies seem so hell bent on being ultra serious/gritty whatever that it makes the movies NOT FUN to watch and does not lend itself to repeat viewings like the older movies do.

remember when Hollywood used to TRY to entertain you? nowadays theres so much pretentious self righteousness especially in the comic book community that they have forgotten how to entertain and make memorable films. I honestly preferred it when the studio's didn't give a sh** what the fans thought and the directors were allowed to have there unique visual image on screen. nowadays batman is probably the blandest looking superhero ever, thanks to Nolan and his *lack of* vision.

:goodpost:

Totally agreed. Batman can still be a dark, serious character with the film still retaining a sense of "comic book fun". Just look at Batman 89 and Mask of The Phantasm. Dark character/ Really fun movies.

And I am in the same camp as you with the rewatchability. I have seen Begins maybe 3 or 4 times. Dark Knight twice (and I was looking at my watch halfway through). I have never made it through DKR. But the Burton films, Phantasm, and even Forever? I have seen those more times than I can count. I never have to be in a "mood" or "mindset" to watch them... I can just put them on and enjoy. :)

Again- Just my personal opinion. Feel free to sail on whatever floats your boat.

Sallah
 
Oh haytil... You funny little man. :)

This is important, and is exactly why Sallah's claims that reboots happened before the modern cinematic era are false. "King Kong" may have been made several times, but they weren't "reboots."

"Reboots" imply a halting of momentum (from one series and audience to a different series, with the same audience). That is why "Batman 1989" was not a reboot, and that is why "King Kong" was not a reboot. There was no need to make it clear that these were different series, it was already implied (or in the case of "Captain America", nobody even knew about the others, so there was no momentum to combat and redirect).

So now you are redefining what reboot means to favor your view? Got it. :monkey1

Reboot in no way implies a "halting of momentum". You just say that because it fits your view. From Websters: Reboot- to be restarted. Something doesn't have to stall out to be rebooted. When you add a new program to your computer, and it says it needs to be rebooted for "the changes to be applied".... Does that mean it stalled out? No, of course not. That is just silly talk. Again.

Rebooted is starting over, in most cases with changes applied to the original formula. So those cases I said? Reboots... before there was a term "reboot".

There have been 3 excellent Batman films that I'm sure they would have enjoyed, release in the last several years.

Oh... I'm sorry. I didn't realize you knew my kids. Especially well enough to be "sure they would have enjoyed them". I'll be sure to run my film picks for them by you from here on. And I'll pick you up for the play date Saturday.

Bar none- You do not know my kids. You do not know what they like and dislike. You haven't watched hundreds of films with them to know their tastes. I have. So yeah... I know for a fact they wouldn't have enjoyed at their ages (which I am sure you know) the Nolan films NEARLY as much as they would the Burton films, Mask of The Phantasm, Batman Forever... and heck, for the younger one, even as much as the Adam West movie.

This is not true, they're geared towards a general audience. Hence the cute kiddey moments and toned-down violence (which actually bring down the movie, if you ask me).

Every kid I've talked to loves the Nolan movies - neither bored nor frightened of them. They're no darker or slower than the Star Wars movies, and we all ate them up as kids.

Feed a kid McDonalds and he'll eat fast food all his life. Feed a kid steak and he'll eat real food the rest of his life.

Which would you rather your kids develop an appreciation for? Shlocky blockbusters designed to sell toys, or dense movies with artistic merit?

Well, I didn't ask you... but you seem to love trashing anybody's opinion that doesn't match yours. And like I said multiple times... This is MY opinion. I didn't state it as a truth, as you imply. I stated it as my opinion, both as a longtime comic fan and a father. See, I constantly have to strike a balancing act between wanting adult-themed stuff in my comic films and still making it accessible for younger audiences... Ya know, that group these heroes were made for IN THE FIRST PLACE, but yet that we, as adults, have somehow claimed ownership to.

I am curious... Do you even have kids? Or are you basing most of your little rant on being an adult comic fan? Because I do. I have 2 boys and 4 nephews ranging in age from 4 to 12. I have also worked around kids for years. I have a pretty good understanding of what kind of film apeals to what age group, and what films are obviously slanted more towards an adult audience. I know that some kids enjoyed the Nolan films (if their parents were willing to move past the doom and gloom to let them watch them). In most cases, they liked it "because its Batman".... not for some "artistic merit" like you imply (very important to 6 year olds, I'm sure). They just want to watch a Batman movie, and the Nolan films were there and accessible.

Believe me or not, I've actually done a lot of trial with this... Showing younger kids the pre-Nolan Batman stuff after they have said they watched the Nolan films. Almost every time, they glom onto that older stuff, whatever it may be (Phantasm, Burton, Schumacher, or West) because they got the best of both worlds- They got Batman, and they got something "fun" to watch.

That is what I wanted as a kid. I wanted to watch a comic book movie that made me feel good. That didn't give me an oppressive, gloomy view of the world and even its heroes... Where a hero might wear black and be tragic, but he still felt like a superhero that was making things better. Where Joker was obviously a maniacal villain... but he was somehow still able to be laughed at and looked at like something that couldn't happen in "real life". Where the world may seem dark, but it felt like a "comic book world" and not where I live. Or where Superman didn't kill and he battled horrible villains but still had time to save a cat from a tree.

And that is what I want for my kids. I don't give 2 craps about what you think about me raising my kids on what you call "shlocky blockbusters designed to sell toys" (which Burton's films, West's film, nor Mask of the Phantasm ever were) over films with "artistic merit". They are kids. I want them to go to a movie and have fun, leaving behind this sometimes oppressively dark real world we already live in and go somewhere else where heroes seem real... not right back to more gloom and darkness.

Again, my opinion. And that is just about all I can say to you on the matter. This is me, these are my choices. Railing on me won't change it... So if you feel the need, go right ahead, but I won't be replying as that is a waste of both our time.

Sallah
 
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