That's what I mean exactly..."movie scares"...no one goes into a horror movie thinking that Freddy or Jason will jump from the screen and chase them, but they still can feel the nervous anticipation when they're stalking a victim, and the fright of a sudden "boo!" scene. Nolan's Joker differs from Burton's in that you can easily imagine something as "everyday and real world" as police jail scene, or a dinner party (whether or not a person can directly relate rolling in Bruce Wayne-type social circles, his party doesnt seem unrealistic)...and then this total out there madmad invades with a shot gun. Nolan makes the Joker scary by inserting him into situations that we see that could easily be possible. Since Burton's Joker AND the world he is set are more fantasy based, it's harder to latch onto something that seems real world to relate to get the "movie scares" from seeing a scary character in. He's just a fantasy scary character IN a fantasy world. Nothing to be afraid of. Nolan's Joker is a fantasy scary character IN a world that much more strongly resembles be our real world.
I am not really sure why we are going back and forth on this then? We are pretty much saying the same things? I find Jack's portrayal closer to the comic... It is a mix of humor and terror, and is undeniably set in a comic world. To say there is "nothing to be afraid of" though isn't truly fair... As he is something to put a cinema-style fright in you the same as Jason and Freddy.
Nolan's Joker is what we have both said- A real world villain. A psychotic anarchist that closely matches a lot of real world evil. Yes, he terrifies... and even more so it sticks with you because it is real (which is one of the reasons I don't find this film as appropriate for young audiences) I am not faulting that, and never have- Nolan and Ledger achieved what they set out to do with the character. I am just saying I don't prefer it, and to me it isn't in line with what I think of as a comic book Joker.
As far as "proving my point" that's not a bad thing, man.
I never said you were arguing with me on humor. The point that was proven by your examples of humor in Burton's films AND my examples of humor in Nolan films, was simply that BOTH directors' Batman films had humor. Great that they're funn
ier in your opinion, but honestly your opinion and Batfreak's are VERY "partisan" for Burton films by default, so that's pretty much what I expected. Whenever it comes up, the Burton did
everything better than the Nolan one's did right? Writing, costumes, seriousness, humor, action, acting, Bruce Wayne's portrayal, Batman's portrayal, the villians, supporting characters, female leads, Alfred, and even bested Gary Oldman's Gordon!
Most other posters here can look at the two series and see some things they think one series did better than the other, even if they personally prefer one series overall. But for you two, it's ALL of column A and NONE of column B...(and I don't know if it nostalgia coloring it or, a knee jerk reaction to to be absolutists to counter all of the praise Nolan has received in recent years or whatever)... but for you the Burton series were better than the Nolan ones in
every way, right? No matter point or detail of the two movies we're talking about, it's to the point that I can practically guarantee you guys will chime in about how Burton did that detail better and Nolan didn't pull it off.
Ah see, now you are alluding to things I haven't done or said. That isn't fair at all.
Do I prefer Burton? Yes. Do I prefer Keaton? Yes. Was I a fan of Nolan's films? No. But I have ALWAYS stressed that this is my opinion, and I am fine with somebody preferring one over the other. I have NEVER, not once tread into a Nolan-themed thread (remember- this is a "Batman Returns" thread here) and started saying how much Burton was better than Nolan, or that Keaton was better than Bale, or that Nicholson was better than Joker, or that the writing was better, or that ANYTHING was "better". That would just be obnoxious. If you are in a Nolan thread, it is a good bet you prefer that, so why should I come in and pee in your cheerios, spewing rhetoric on how what I like is better than what you like? However... the exact same thing has been done by "Nolan fans" in this Burton thread... but you don't take them to task for that? But Batfreak and I, for favoring this, are said that it is "because of nostalgia or a knee-jerk reaction". Huh.
In fact, I don't think I've ever taken the stance that one is just blatantly "better" than the other overall. I have said I preferred one. I have said one has done a better job than other at certain things. But overall just "better"? No, I haven't said that without a qualifier.
I can say I THINK Burton did a better job of making a "comic book" film. I can say I think Nolan did a better job of making a "real world" crime drama. I can say I think Keaton did a better job capturing the psychology of Bruce Wayne/ Batman. I can say that I think Bale did a better job capturing the physical look. I can say I think Nicholson did a better job of recreating a straight comic Joker. I can say Ledger did a better job at an "Elseworlds-style", real-world psychotic character named Joker. I can say Burton's Batmobile is the better comic-inspired Batmobile. I can say Nolan's Tumbler is more fitting of a real world assault vehicle. I can say Burton's Gotham feels more like a fantasy, comic book city. I can say Nolan made you feel like this was happening right here by using real locations, keeping you grounded in reality. I can say Pfeiffer made a SEXY AS HELL Catwoman. I can say Maggie Gyllenhaal.... has ummmm... very nice teeth.
All positives. All my opinions. Impossible to say one is straight "better" than the other, because the parameters are different.
Any way you cut it, I think it is fine for people to have their preferences, and just saying one is "better" is wholly a matter of opinion. I don't blindly say "eh Burton's are better!" without saying what aspects I believe are better (IN MY OPINION) and giving credit to Nolan where credit may be due. He did a FINE job in creating a real world crime drama, and filtering these characters from their comic versions into something that fits in a real world. That just isn't for me.
Oh... and if by including the "he even did a better job with Gordon!" was a jab at that back and forth from awhile ago, you may want to re-read it. I actually said Nolan did a better job of exploring the character than Burton could with his films. The only thing I refused to accept in that argument was the assertion that Gordon was "a bumbling idiot" in Burton's films, which I don't think is true at all.
Oh yeah- That was another jab from the "Nolan side" here in this Burton thread... but again, that's okay. See, I've never tread over into the other person's playground and said something like "Bale's voice sucks, Keaton's was better", but it is totally fine to come over here and say something LIKE (as I don't want to get accused of misquoting) "Gordon is a bumbling idiot, Nolan did it better". You ask why we seem to defend the Burton films? Well, we are in a Burton thread.... and at least for me, I get a little tired of hearing how "Nolan did everything better than Burton" constantly. Just like you said Batfreak and I do that for Burton, I cannot tell you how many times I have heard the exact opposite since the Nolan films hit, even from some folks that thought the Burton films were great before that. There doesn't even have to be reasoning behind it. When somebody says that "Nolan's films are better", it just gets accepted. But the reverse? Even if we are just comparing the aspects and giving credit to the other when due? We get taken to task... in a freaking Burton thread. I just don't get that.
Bottom line? You prefer Burton? Great. You prefer Nolan? Great. I think both did fine jobs at what each set out to do. One is for me, the other isn't. But I am not going to tell you which one you should or shouldn't prefer, and I am not going to say one is "better" than another (apples meet oranges) since they are 2 different things. But yeah... I sure as hell am allowed to say which one I LIKE better.
Sallah
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