Hot Toys Batman V. Superman Dawn of Justice Speculation Thread

[Motuxmen]

I've got a friend that's a body builder that said I could use a couple pics of him to make my point. Being ripped just doesn't translate through the material. A tshirt or under armor type shirt show a bit. But no where close to the way people are depicted in comics and toys and statues, which is then expected to translate to film. Unless you have someone freakish huge, and I mean Jay cutler big or bigger(the body builder not QB) you just won't get that look. So we have to build that physique from the costume. It's obviously easier if the actor isn't tiny or fat. But honestly, both can be made to look ripped with the right body suit. Anyway, here's a couple quick pics to illustrate my point. And we tried it with any actors on films I've worked. You just can't get the level of definition to read on camera unless you enhance it.
Him in a tshirt...can't tell much about how his body or muscles are Except he appears to be in shape..


But here..you can tell he's pretty well ripped. He's a professional body builder. Pretty big guy. But you just can't get that look in clothing.

 

[GasparZizou]

^that one is just a loose t-shirt.

But you're right, although some fabrics do allow to show some definition, but nowhere near anything you see like in 90's comics because 90's art is retarded, that's why I hate 90's art, most of it anyway, fortunately current artists are getting back to costumes that look like actual costumes and not that body paint trend Jim Lee, Liefeld and co. started.

Anyway, there, to show you can get some definition through:

And that's just an amateur cosplayer, I bet a professional costume designer with proper tailoring and stuff could translate the look pretty well.

 

[Motuxmen]

Yes, you can get some level of definition. But not near enough that would read on screen. And yes, what I posted was a tshirt. Which given the materials used for the MOS replicates how it hangs pretty well. Just not as tight. The suit has layers and is a thicker material them the older Reeve type suit.

I worked on the MOS suit. And the updated one. And the Bat suit for BvS. Worked on both films and we started (well I did anyway) last week on the stuff for Justice league. Which will start actual shooting soon. Anyway..

The photos where not meant to be an all encompassing thing. Just to illustrate a point. No matter what material you use you can't achieve the full muscle look. Especially the look Zach Snyder is kinda known for. The 300 type body. Henry is huge. He got really big for BvS. He got bigger then normal for him on MOS, but he went way harder for this one.

Anyway...all I was trying to say was that the (in response to a question) suits often have the muscles built in to them in some way becuase you have a very hard time achieving that look with out if, and even if you get it part way there like in your cosplay guy pic, that's in a static pose, and you lose it very easily. Unless the actor is flexing and posing the whole film (which looks idiotic and kills the performance)it won't read on screen.

 

[GasparZizou]

Yup, that's why my favorite artists are the ones who can make costumes look like actual clothing, I always disliked the muscle look of costumes.

I'm sure there's a way to get some solid definition with fabric, like Bryne-tier art, Gary Frank, Quitely, Ross tops. But anything above that like Lee-tier is just retarded, it's great for the stylized comics but I don't know why film makers tried to replicate that look, the Burton Batman worked cause it was so obviously fake that looked like an armor.

we started (well I did anyway) last week on the stuff for Justice league. Which will start actual shooting soon. Anyway..

*heavy breathing in Spanish*

 

[melkorjunior]

I don't know why we need to "see" muscle definition through the costume if the actor is already in terrific physical shape, like Henry Cavill. Is the audience really going to think Henry Cavill is a 98-pound weakling just because we can't see fake abdominal muscles sculpted onto his stomach? This trend of adding fake muscle to superhero costumes all started with Michael Keaton's Batman, but Keaton needed the muscle as he was just a skinny person underneath the suit. But I think Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans as Thor and Captain America from the Marvel movies both look very big and muscular in their costumes without having to resort to silly fake muscles.

 

[Remy]

I don't know why we need to "see" muscle definition through the costume if the actor is already in terrific physical shape, like Henry Cavill. Is the audience really going to think Henry Cavill is a 98-pound weakling just because we can't see fake abdominal muscles sculpted onto his stomach? This trend of adding fake muscle to superhero costumes all started with Michael Keaton's Batman, but Keaton needed the muscle as he was just a skinny person underneath the suit. But I think Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans as Thor and Captain America from the Marvel movies both look very big and muscular in their costumes without having to resort to silly fake muscles.

Cap and Thor are wearing armor not skin tight material.
Hence...this suit looking silly.

 

[bunnyfreakz]

Honestly if Cavil looks good in that suit, is that even matter?

 

[Motuxmen]

Cap and Thor are wearing armor not skin tight material.
Hence...this suit looking silly.

This is pretty much why it's done. People expect "super-humans" or whatever, to appear bigger and stronger. And the best way to do that is through costuming and suits. Sure, The Marvel Chris's and Others got very ripped for the role...but in Cap and thors costume you can not tell. They look no different then skinny or out of shape people.

I don't know why we need to "see" muscle definition through the costume if the actor is already in terrific physical shape, like Henry Cavill. Is the audience really going to think Henry Cavill is a 98-pound weakling just because we can't see fake abdominal muscles sculpted onto his stomach? This trend of adding fake muscle to superhero costumes all started with Michael Keaton's Batman, but Keaton needed the muscle as he was just a skinny person underneath the suit. But I think Chris Hemsworth and Chris Evans as Thor and Captain America from the Marvel movies both look very big and muscular in their costumes without having to resort to silly fake muscles.

As for it starting with Keaton as batman and it being done becuase he wasn't ripped..first, it didn't start with him. Look at Ben Hur. The roman armor has fake muscles. So stop it with that junk. Second, had nothing to do with Keaton's size. In a rubber suit you can not see definition. Skinny or not you would not be able to tell. So if Keaton looked like Arnold they still would have added it. Two common "myths", that just are not true. The batman suit had them built in for the intimidation factor. It's an armor. No muscle would ever show no matter how toned you are. But from statues to comics to the Arkham game batman has it becuase of the intimidation and "look". Fake muscle has been added to battle attire for thousand plus years. From gladiators to super heros. Real life and fake.

This breast plate is from 400 BC, so nearly 2400 years ago (about). Seems to be a wee bit befor Keaton's turn as batman in 1989. But barley.

 

[melkorjunior]

This is pretty much why it's done. People expect "super-humans" or whatever, to appear bigger and stronger. And the best way to do that is through costuming and suits. Sure, The Marvel Chris's and Others got very ripped for the role...but in Cap and thors costume you can not tell. They look no different then skinny or out of shape people.




As for it starting with Keaton as batman and it being done becuase he wasn't ripped..first, it didn't start with him. Look at Ben Hur. The roman armor has fake muscles. So stop it with that junk. Second, had nothing to do with Keaton's size. In a rubber suit you can not see definition. Skinny or not you would not be able to tell. So if Keaton looked like Arnold they still would have added it. Two common "myths", that just are not true. The batman suit had them built in for the intimidation factor. It's an armor. No muscle would ever show no matter how toned you are. But from statues to comics to the Arkham game batman has it becuase of the intimidation and "look". Fake muscle has been added to battle attire for thousand plus years. From gladiators to super heros. Real life and fake.

This breast plate is from 400 BC, so nearly 2400 years ago (about). Seems to be a wee bit befor Keaton's turn as batman in 1989. But barley.

View attachment 201675

I've noticed this with you before: whenever you choose to enlighten the board with your superior knowledge on all topics you have a tendency to become insufferable. There's a way to reply to a point without coming off like a smug *********. You should really look into it.

 

[Remy]

This is pretty much why it's done. People expect "super-humans" or whatever, to appear bigger and stronger. And the best way to do that is through costuming and suits. Sure, The Marvel Chris's and Others got very ripped for the role...but in Cap and thors costume you can not tell. They look no different then skinny or out of shape people.




As for it starting with Keaton as batman and it being done becuase he wasn't ripped..first, it didn't start with him. Look at Ben Hur. The roman armor has fake muscles. So stop it with that junk. Second, had nothing to do with Keaton's size. In a rubber suit you can not see definition. Skinny or not you would not be able to tell. So if Keaton looked like Arnold they still would have added it. Two common "myths", that just are not true. The batman suit had them built in for the intimidation factor. It's an armor. No muscle would ever show no matter how toned you are. But from statues to comics to the Arkham game batman has it becuase of the intimidation and "look". Fake muscle has been added to battle attire for thousand plus years. From gladiators to super heros. Real life and fake.

This breast plate is from 400 BC, so nearly 2400 years ago (about). Seems to be a wee bit befor Keaton's turn as batman in 1989. But barley.

View attachment 201675

I think Melkor was most likely referring to an old article, which quoted Stallone saying that old school action heroes died when Keaton wore a muscle suit.
Back then, all action movie stars had to be in great shape, because at the time, they didnt have the luxury of muscle suits.
But now, anyone can wear a muscle suit and can pretend they are in great shape to be an action movie star.

I believe the article was even before Thor and Captain America came out.

 

[dario2739]

^that one is just a loose t-shirt.

But you're right, although some fabrics do allow to show some definition, but nowhere near anything you see like in 90's comics because 90's art is retarded, that's why I hate 90's art, most of it anyway, fortunately current artists are getting back to costumes that look like actual costumes and not that body paint trend Jim Lee, Liefeld and co. started.

Anyway, there, to show you can get some definition through:

And that's just an amateur cosplayer, I bet a professional costume designer with proper tailoring and stuff could translate the look pretty well.

The guy looks good - but bear in mind he's pulling a pose there - tensing his muscles, it's posing for the shot and he wouldn't be doing it constantly. Also the material is very thin, and would be impractical for filming.
A good example is Arnold Schwarzenneger in The Running Man... he's in good shape in that movie, yet his definition is lost beneath a spandex suit.

 

[dario2739]

If it wasn't meant to be noticeable, why did/would they change it at all and why does it need to be?

I personally like the AoU suit best for Cap. It's seemingly an amalgamation of all of the suits into one; in particular the stealth suit and the GA suit.

They will have changed it simply because they have improved on how to make the costume since the last movie – costuming on these films is always evolving... adding hidden zips for toilet breaks etc.
Seems obvious to me that when improving on 'build quality' they've tweaked the aesthectic look of the suit ever so slightly.

As for Cap - didn't really like either Avengers suits (first one especially), I did like the First Avenger suit, and it made sense – for me, four movies in they still haven't got it right!

 

[SilverStar17]

Regardless the reasons, the suit is different and DC and WB will still make money off of that in some capacity. With these figures for example. I'm not a fanboy for either side because I like both universes. I just keep a level playing field and make the calls fair so to speak. If they changed the suit, they changed the suit. Just as other films did.

Yeah, I liked Cap's TFA suit. I liked his first Avengers suit as well, but I think the utility belt was a little impractical. I get what you mean though with liking the strike suit but at the same time disliking it because it was devoid of any red. However, the AoU suit is mostly based on the strike suit, now with more red and white added into it.

 

[GasparZizou]

They will have changed it simply because they have improved on how to make the costume since the last movie – costuming on these films is always evolving... adding hidden zips for toilet breaks etc.
Seems obvious to me that when improving on 'build quality' they've tweaked the aesthectic look of the suit ever so slightly.

Yeah all of that is true, but you also have to consider the fact that is a homemade outfit, with ordinary materials, probably amateur tailoring at best, and that dude is just big, not very defined, I'm 100% sure there's a way, c'mon theres a fabric that you can literally spray it onto a naked body and when it dries you can take it off and it's like a compression outfit but tailored to every detail of your body to perfection. I bet a decent costume designer with the right idea could replicate to a certain point the "muscle look".

I'm not saying I'd want to, I prefer wrinkles in clothing.

 

[melkorjunior]

I guess I just don't understand why it's important to see muscle definition in a guy who already has a weightlfter's physique. The audience knows he's big and strong--do we really need to see every single abdominal muscle like in the comics? I wonder what Cavill would look like in a Superman costume with the same colors but made with a different material that didn't have muscles sculpted in? Because I do like the aesthetic of Cavill's Superman costume--no red trunks, and a darker blue.

 

[LIBBY1957DOG]

just saw these on the shh boards ,not much to do with the hot toys figures but nicely shows the different body types and looks supes and bats have had over the years ,which sorta fits with the recent conversations lol

its nicely done and strangely hypnotic

 

[GasparZizou]

I guess I just don't understand why it's important to see muscle definition in a guy who already has a weightlfter's physique. The audience knows he's big and strong--do we really need to see every single abdominal muscle like in the comics? I wonder what Cavill would look like in a Superman costume with the same colors but made with a different material that didn't have muscles sculpted in? Because I do like the aesthetic of Cavill's Superman costume--no red trunks, and a darker blue.

Personally I don't need it, but filmmakers for some reason think it's necessary, some of them at least.

There has been talk about intimidation factor, no that's not it, there's nothing intimidating about a dude who's obviously wearing fake muscles, it's purely about the 90's comicbook aesthetic, same as the ancient armors were just aesthetic.

 

[dario2739]

I guess I just don't understand why it's important to see muscle definition in a guy who already has a weightlfter's physique. The audience knows he's big and strong--do we really need to see every single abdominal muscle like in the comics? I wonder what Cavill would look like in a Superman costume with the same colors but made with a different material that didn't have muscles sculpted in? Because I do like the aesthetic of Cavill's Superman costume--no red trunks, and a darker blue.

We don't need to see the definition, but these costumes actually make the actors look smaller than they are – take Chris Evans as Captain America. He's in great shape for all the Marvel movies – but he doesn't look that big in the suit (Avengers suit especially so), but if you look at every suit, the shoulders are enhanced to make him look bigger. Hemsworth's Thor costume has little tricks to make him appear bigger, from built up soles, his cape designed to make his shoulders seem bigger and his armoured sleeved suit had false muscle definition.
The Superman and Batman suits are purely designed to look like the comic character come-to-life... and to me personally, they're simply the best interpretation of a comic book costume on screen to date.

 

[SilverStar17]

We don't need to see the definition, but these costumes actually make the actors look smaller than they are – take Chris Evans as Captain America. He's in great shape for all the Marvel movies – but he doesn't look that big in the suit (Avengers suit especially so), but if you look at every suit, the shoulders are enhanced to make him look bigger. Hemsworth's Thor costume has little tricks to make him appear bigger, from built up soles, his cape designed to make his shoulders seem bigger and his armoured sleeved suit had false muscle definition.
The Superman and Batman suits are purely designed to look like the comic character come-to-life... and to me personally, they're simply the best interpretation of a comic book costume on screen to date.

Translation: DC > Marvel

 

[cmiller99]

just saw these on the shh boards ,not much to do with the hot toys figures but nicely shows the different body types and looks supes and bats have had over the years ,which sorta fits with the recent conversations lol

its nicely done and strangely hypnotic

That's a pretty awesome gif.