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But technically he has an origin. :lol

Unless we just erase 64 years of the character's history. Those DC encyclopedia's for the character all have him falling into chemicals and having bleached skin. That's how the Joker came to be. I'm more inclined to go with those than what fans may think.

#1 is great, but lets face it. In those days NO comic or serial villains had origins because they were typically villains of the week. There was no time to delve into them. In the 40s, the Joker wasn't Batman's main foe. He was just another villain like Hugo Strange, Dr. Death, the Monk, or even "The Cat" (Catwoman with a literal cat head for a mask and a granny disguise). If those villains were lucky, they'd have a two parter before they got killed off. Joker wasn't at the caliber he was at years later where they fleshed him out more. In fact, they planned on killing him off THAT year until the creators saw his potential.


And I'd say that Ledger's Joker has an origin too, even though it's not told to us and he's not a reliable narrator. He came to be who he was because of those scars that were inflicted on him, his deformity. He suffered a trauma just like Batman and Two-Face that made him who he is. That's what drove him and pushed him off the edge ("madness as you know, is like gravity"). Some people would like to think that the Ledger Joker just emerged onto that sidewalk corner like an apparition or a Loki god, that he just appeared out of thin air. He's not though, not if this is meant to be a "realistic, believable" crime drama. Everyone of his stories involves "how he got his scars". So whatever the story is, it has to do with the scars on his face. Might not have been his dad or his wife, or whatever he was going to tell Batman, but it involved some trauma that made him throw on a purple suit and makeup. Hell, his über awareness of the mob's money, their meetings, etc. heavily implies that he was a nobody mob guy that got a Glasgow smile (like the man who laughs). Something none of the comic interpretations have (or a mob background like '89 and BTAS). That's the whole point of The Killing Joke. Joker is trying to push Gordon over the edge just like he was the day he became the Joker. He wanted to prove everyone is as ugly as him. It was done in Killing Joke, it was done in '89 with Joker's vanity and making people look literally like him before they die, and it was done in the Dark Knight with a philosophical view point. Whoever he was before being the Joker doesn't matter, that's not really an origin. Falling into a vat of chemicals or getting your face wounded and taking it out on the world though? That's an origin. Same with Batman. We don't need to know what he was doing before or even after he became Batman. THE origin of the character is that he saw his parents gunned down in front of him. That's it. So many stories gloss over Thomas and Martha, the bat, his training, etc. All anyone needs to know is the murder.


Also, lets not bring up the casual audience members that Nolan was supposedly catering to. A lot of those idiots didn't understand that The Joker was giving mixed stories about his scars and actually believed them. It flew over so many peoples' heads, everyone from reviewers in 2008 like Ebert to my own dad. I can't even begin to explain how many friends and family I had to explain the idea to that he was telling conflicting stories.
 
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But technically he has an origin. :lol

Unless we just erase 64 years of the character's history. Those DC encyclopedia's for the character all have him falling into chemicals and having bleached skin. That's how the Joker came to be. I'm more inclined to go with those than what fans may think.

#1 is great, but lets face it. In those days NO comic or serial villains had origins because they were typically villains of the week. There was no time to delve into them. In the 40s, the Joker wasn't Batman's main foe. He was just another villain like Hugo Strange, Dr. Death, the Monk, or even "The Cat" (Catwoman with a literal cat head for a mask and a granny disguise). If those villains were lucky, they'd have a two parter before they got killed off. Joker wasn't at the caliber he was at years later where they fleshed him out more. In fact, they planned on killing him off THAT year until the creators saw his potential.


And I'd say that Ledger's Joker has an origin too, even though it's not told to us and he's not a reliable narrator. He came to be who he was because of those scars that were inflicted on him, his deformity. He suffered a trauma just like Batman and Two-Face that made him who he is. That's what drove him and pushed him off the edge ("madness as you know, is like gravity"). Some people would like to think that the Ledger Joker just emerged onto that sidewalk corner like an apparition or a Loki god, that he just appeared out of thin air. He's not though, not if this is meant to be a "realistic, believable" crime drama. Everyone of his stories involves "how he got his scars". So whatever the story is, it has to do with the scars on his face. Might not have been his dad or his wife, or whatever he was going to tell Batman, but it involved some trauma that made him throw on a purple suit and makeup. Hell, his über awareness of the mob's money, their meetings, etc. heavily implies that he was a nobody mob guy that got a Glasgow smile (like the man who laughs). Something none of the comic interpretations have (or a mob background like '89 and BTAS). That's the whole point of The Killing Joke. Joker is trying to push Gordon over the edge just like he was the day he became the Joker. He wanted to prove everyone is as ugly as him. It was done in Killing Joke, it was done in '89 with Joker's vanity and making people look literally like him before they die, and it was done in the Dark Knight with a philosophical view point. Whoever he was before being the Joker doesn't matter, that's not really an origin. Falling into a bat of chemicals or getting your face wounded and taking it out on the world though? That's an origin.


Also, lets not bring up the casual audience members that Nolan was supposedly catering to. A lot of those idiots didn't understand that The Joker was giving mixed stories about his scars and actually believed them. It flew over so many peoples' heads, everyone from reviewers in 2008 like Ebert to my own dad. I can't even begin to explain how many friends and family I had to explain the idea to that he was telling conflicting stories.
Good post I agree, what if they just continued from TDK for Batman VS Superman 2, kept the sam3 story just different actor. I think Daniel Day Lewis......
 
But technically he has an origin. :lol

Unless we just erase 64 years of the character's history. Those DC encyclopedia's for the character all have him falling into chemicals and having bleached skin. That's how the Joker came to be. I'm more inclined to go with those than what fans may think.
Not sure about others but I was more talking in line with who he was before he got dipped in chemical. I think most would agree with him falling into some sort of chemical is his origin of BECOMING the Joker but his life prior to that has always been a mixed bag.
 
Not sure about others but I was more talking in line with who he was before he got dipped in chemical. I think most would agree with him falling into some sort of chemical is his origin of BECOMING the Joker but his life prior to that has always been a mixed bag.


Yup, full agreement. This about sums it up.


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I always thought it was interesting that they made Joker a demolitions expert. That was something unique about this interpretation and made me wonder what he did in the past to pick up those skills
 
I always thought it was interesting that they made Joker a demolitions expert. That was something unique about this interpretation and made me wonder what he did in the past to pick up those skills

He googled it I bet.
 
I like the new 52 origin from Zero Year. The unknown Redhood leader always has a smile and is already crazy, however, it's unclear if he's the same guy who fell in the chemical because they take turns wearing the rehood helmet.



The Joker...I mean... Redhood, might have a broken leg too :lol

 
They gave him a origin story 10 years later, in Detective Comics 168, but that does not account for the 10 years prior in the regular Batman series which he was already the Joker before he fell into the chemicals.

Everything Kane and Robinson talks about the early Joker has nothing to do with him falling into chemicals. He was a serial killer with his looks based on a Joker playing card with no known background until they decided to start a new story of him as a Red Hood member falling into the chemicals. But the Joker existed long before that #168. For 10 years there was no Red Hood gang, no chemicals. you cant dismiss 10 years of a character first years of existence. They re-booted him in Detective comics 168 with the whole Red Hood gang. But thats not the "original Joker". Just like today, DC52 is re-booting some of the origins, like Wonder Woman off the top of my head is one thats changed a lot. But its not her original first origin. The Joker just didnt have one...thats what it was meant to be back then.
 
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I think in the Nolan movies, he's just trying to make things more believable, rather than comicy (if that's even a real word). Also, as far as the jokers origin goes, I think there really isn't one. Maybe he's just some crazy dude that is just mad. Maybe he has/had depression problems, cut a permanent smile onto his face, and does random crimes to compensate him being miserable inside. (Everybody cracks a fake smile to get by one time or another.) A lot of the time, people that struggle to get ahead in life, usually like to see others faulty. What better way to seek happiness than to destroy everybody else's?
 
^Yes. That was basically Nolan's take on the Batman character and the other elements of the universe. He wanted to put everything in a more realistic world setting. It's still just a movie, everything's not perfect, but it's more believable that such a character can exist in an everyday normal world that is similar to ours.
 
In Memphis, I actually heard that gang members were actually going around cutting people with a razor, makings a continuing line from the side of the mouth, calling it a permanent smile (or something to that nature).
There's people out there that actually have a very similar scar on their face (which sucks considering I don't think they're very happy about it).
 
Except . . .


Bill Finger, the man that wrote #1 ALSO wrote #168. What does that say? The writer created an origin for the character he helped create. Seals the deal for me. It's a little more than a retcon if you ask me. For those 10 years you're describing, the Joker was permanent white with emerald hair and ruby red lips. He wasn't dressing up as a clown, he was a clown. The chemical dip was established by the same guy, and it became a staple of the villain for over 60 years. That's about 90% of the character's life.

Batman didn't get his origin until a whopping 7 months later when Finger and Kane made one up. Should I say that Batman was always meant to be a gun toting, gothic, killer vigilante that fought mad doctors and vampires like his original run? Nope. Why? Because over the years, the parents origin became a staple of the character, just like Joker's chemical dip disfigurement. Either way, he's ALWAYS been a permanent white clown with bleached white skin until 6-7 years ago.


https://gothamalleys.blogspot.com/2011/08/jokers-origins-multiple-choice.html?m=1



Also, according to Alan Moore, that comedian story in the Killing Joke that Joker reminisces about at the Amusement park ACTUALLY happens and is a part of the Joker's pathos. Moore was the writer, I'd say his word carries more stock than an artist or inker.

Just as Batman is a boy that witnesses the death of his parents and dresses up as a bat to fight crime, Joker is a man that fell into chemicals and came out as a clown, permanently. It can't be argued. It's also worth noting that his origin is the longest running for a villain ever, second to Two-Face. Where Catwoman, Riddler or Penguin would get retconned yearly, Joker's origin was consistent for decades.

Now if the #1 first appearance Joker dressed up, put on messy clown make up and killed to make a philosophical point AND was written by a different writer in 1951, 10 years later, then I might agree. He wasn't though, he didn't put on face paint and was more interested in jewels, rubies, and rare paintings than philosophical chaos. He might not have had an origin in the 40s (just like all those other villains, or even Batman himself initially), but he got them in the 50s . . . and 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc.
 
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In Memphis, I actually heard that gang members were actually going around cutting people with a razor, makings a continuing line from the side of the mouth, calling it a permanent smile (or something to that nature).
There's people out there that actually have a very similar scar on their face (which sucks considering I don't think they're very happy about it).

Crazies. :cuckoo:
 
they gave Boba Fett an origin story... if anything, it was to the character's detriment.
 
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