1/6 Hot Toys - MMS 249 - The Joker (Bank Robber Version 2.0) - 1/6 - TF Exclusive 2014

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Another problem with HT is the way that they rushed out the Crow figure. I got him too and I'm happy with him but he should have been so much better.

Oh... hell yeah he could have been better! A second HS with a neutral expression, a bird with the wings down, some weapons (I know the family is against it), a tombstone base with his or Shelly's name. I happy with the figure for what it is, but you're right, it could be better. I get the no guns thing, but how about a katana, the dude was a martial artist, don't think a katana would be disrespectful.

 

[a-dev]

I forgot about one thing. The increase of the prices might be only a problem for those of us who aware of it because we know what we used to pay 6 years ago. However, if you are just discovering HT now, or just getting into now because they are making your favorite characters from the Avengers or something, then paying 270-300 might not feel so bad, because that's just the standard price. They don't know anything else or the history like we do.

Yeah. They might have to work themselves up to it but they do, just like we worked ourselves up to paying what it was in 2006. Even the prices then were 'high' if you were coming from collecting McFarlane, Hasbro etc.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

Yeah. They might have to work themselves up to it but they do, just like we worked ourselves up to paying what it was in 2006. Even the prices then were 'high' if you were coming from collecting McFarlane, Hasbro etc.

Tell me about it. I passed on Rambo (green jacket version) because $75 was too much at the time

 

[Mike86]

I forgot about one thing. The increase of the prices might be only a problem for those of us who aware of it because we know what we used to pay 6 years ago. However, if you are just discovering HT now, or just getting into now because they are making your favorite characters from the Avengers or something, then paying 270-300 might not feel so bad, because that's just the standard price. They don't know anything else or the history like we do.

At the same time though to expect prices to stay the same forever is silly too no matter how you look at it. Most things go up in price over time and we don't know all the factors as to why. I won't say it has nothing to do with Hot Toys and other companies taking advantage of the fact that certain licenses (particularly Marvel and DC currently) has nothing to do with it, but if I had to guess that's only a small factor.

The problem if you ask me and it's not just with this hobby but with a lot of products is that people feel entitled to things. They want the biggest and best things for rock bottom prices. The reality is that's just not how business works.

 

[Jeff12burq]

I am way more selective of what I buy because of price. I have to completely LOVE the character to want to spend $200+ on a figure. I love Ledger's Joker, and I own the V1 of this guy, but if he comes in at over $225, I'm most likely out. There are other figures and/or accessories to bashes I'm working on that I would rather have.

I don't blame HT for wanting to make money. Thats the point of business.

Compelling stuff, man.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

At the same time though to expect prices to stay the same forever is silly too no matter how you look at it. Most things go up in price over time and we don't know all the factors as to why. I won't say it has nothing to do with Hot Toys and other companies taking advantage of the fact that certain licenses (particularly Marvel and DC currently) has nothing to do with it, but if I had to guess that's only a small factor.

The problem if you ask me and it's not just with this hobby but with a lot of products is that people feel entitled to things. They want the biggest and best things for rock bottom prices. The reality is that's just not how business works.

I agree there are SOME people like that. I'll give you an example, the WWE has a network for $10 a month and you get a lot content, however there are people getting the same content for free illegally because they don't want to pay the $10. Now, when it comes to HT and those of us willing to pay $200 for a figure, we're not looking for rock bottom prices either. We just see a pattern of an increase in prices when it pertains to certain figures or characters without any real justification. The solution is simple. Don't buy them, but a lot of people still do, and the whining will continue.

 

[mah45]

i am passing on this too. i too have the first BR Joker. It still holds up well for a figure that was put out some time ago in my opinion. Plus the box art is still one of the best for its time.

 

[PopCultKid]

The Iminime comparison is totally apples to oranges. Their figures usually have a production run of < 100, and appeal to a relatively niche group of collectors who want products HT won't go after who are obviously willing to pay more for the product. The price is totally understandable if you consider that the sculpting, casting, painting, tailoring, figure assembly, packaging, and shipping are all done in-house by a smallish number of guys who all have to be financially supported by these figures. On top of that, Denny Kim (the guy behind them) takes feedback from collectors to heart, and will usually address major concerns in an attempt to pursue screen accuracy and other concerns of his customer base. You certainly don't get that with HT, who pump out thousands of figures at a time, don't appear to hand paint all (if any) of their figures anymore, no doubt has factories to handle the tailoring issues and other aspects of production. Then, HT has regional distributors to handle getting product into customers' hands, while Iminime does all that in-house. As such, the prices are justified in both instances, but they are not remotely comparable. It's fine if a collector wants to say "a nice figure is worth $X and I won't pay more." But it's not very reasonable to compare these two entities as if they are one and the same when they are so fundamentally different.

I think I've lost a fair amount of general interest in the hobby, but have specifically been disenchanted by the behavior of HT and lack of quality from SSC, to the point where I don't muster much excitement for releases in general. But I think the price also plays a factor for me. It's hard for me to justify more than, say, $200-225 for a mass produced figure of a character that I don't really LOVE and that isn't going to be an essential part of my collection. So, in the past, the T-1000 Fab refers to appealed to me and I bought one. Same with other supporting guys like Two-Face, Bank Robber Joker, War Machine, Ghost Rider (even though he was over $200, it wasn't by much, and it was a fair price with the bike), black Spidey, umpteen Iron Man variants, etc. At the prices we are getting to now, forget it. I wouldn't pay $280 for a nicer, updated Two-Face. I even question if I would shell it out for Colonial Marines, who many of us have dreamt of seeing updates of for years. I would pay for Hicks and Hudson. But Apone, Vasquez, etc.? Not so sure.

I've seen that sentiment posted a lot over the years (possibly in every HT thread made?), and I think it applies to a certain group, but there are certainly also those who don't buy, who have had buying habits change drastically (as mine have), or get out altogether at a certain point because of the changes in price and other factors such as releasing about 50 Jokers by now. And I do think HT's business philosophy has certainly changed over time to focus more on the short-term nature of the collecting hobby for the products they are producing, which attracts a different kind of collector. But of course, it is what it is. Much of it is justifiable by increasing expenses on HT's end in various respects. Some of it is no doubt an exploitation of customers who will pay whatever is asked as a means of maximizing profit. And HT doesn't respond to comments on this forum, but to the almighty yuan. But it certainly is affecting folks.

I've been reading this thread on the go since last night and wanted to say so much, but you pretty much said everything that I wanted to already.

I'm not as disheartened with the hobby as you are (yet) and I'm still enjoying collecting, but there are definitely things (both from the custom & licensed sides) that are souring me pretty badly. Leaving what bugs me about the custom world aside, the HT price hikes are really starting to become a major turn off. Overall, the product has absolutely improved over the years but I'm wondering how much of the price hike can really be attributed to higher production costs and how much is just a matter of exploiting customers. I don't see Chan's books so all I can do is assume and speculate, but I feel that a company of their size and stature are probably at a point where they're running more cost effectively than they ever have.

The way it’s turning me off is more principle than anything. If they were able to sell Cap TFA for $160 2 years ago, why is basically the same set $90 more now? Were they not profitable at the $160 retail price point? Of course they were but they’re not looking to just profit anymore, their looking to rape and pillage. They lightly pushed, nobody flinched. They shoved, nobody blinked. They punched, we turn the other cheek. They're really starting to be blinded by greed and this upward trend is getting downright insulting. They are definitely going to burst their own bubble and then it’ll be too late to go back. If they’re any smart they will make these hikes plateau before it’s too late. We know that the standard is now set so we’ll never see decreases, but I can’t see them staying in business if the average MMS is $300+

I don't understand why ht catch all this slack,there are companies like iminime selling figures for 4-500 bucks,there unlicensed and not as nice.if I owned ht and saw companies like them getting double what I charge I'm gonna up my price.i think we should be blaming those companies for upping the going rates,not hot toys.

It's rare when you see a customizer talk against the prices of the custom market. As someone who paints, has their own two hands in the artistry of the hobby, and could grasp how a mom & pop shop works, I'm surprised to hear you say this.

I understand that there plenty of non-customizers that don't get the differences between the custom and licensed figs, and I think that comes from a lot of misconceptions and general lack of knowledge. Really the only similarity is superficial… they are both 1/6 figures, but everything that's behind each make them two completely different products. If Iminime had the resources to produce as efficiently as HT then I'm sure you would see them more similarly priced; but as Kara already said that would mean them making 8000 of a specific figure, not 80 ... huge difference in production costs. I willing to bet that at half the retail price HT makes a better profit percentage per piece than Iminime does. The more intimate size of the team and the more hand crafted method as opposed to the factory, mass produced, big scale production has a lot to do with it. That’s what makes one an “art figure” and the other a really nice “high end toy”. Things like rarity and getting characters from licenses that the HT of the world will never touch are just bonuses

 

[Rudimus]

I hope the people who actually make these complex outfits and dolls on the production level are being taken care of. I'd hate to think that these little works of art are the product of sweatshop slave labor. Otherwise I'll pay the price only if i feel the craftsmanship and overall package demand it. The number one rule of collecting is don't buy it if you're going to be unhappy that you can't flip it.

 

[Vortex]

Yeah. They might have to work themselves up to it but they do, just like we worked ourselves up to paying what it was in 2006. Even the prices then were 'high' if you were coming from collecting McFarlane, Hasbro etc.

True, I sweated a lot paying $130 for the original BRJ back in 08. Back then I was a also a Hasbro SW collector, spent more money on that then I spend on HT now. At least that is how I justify paying the crazy prices these days..

The funny thing is, we control the pricing, however like a tiger being controlled in a zoo we just take it in the ass..not truly realizing we have the power to change things.

If we don't buy, things don't sell, prices drop.

 

[Rambler]

Compelling stuff, man.

Wasn't meant to be, but thanks for sharing your thought.

 

[vodoun]

I hope the people who actually make these complex outfits and dolls on the production level are being taken care of. I'd hate to think that these little works of art are the product of sweatshop slave labor. Otherwise I'll pay the price only if i feel the craftsmanship and overall package demand it. The number one rule of collecting is don't buy it if you're going to be unhappy that you can't flip it.

I'm sure all the iPad and iPhone owners feel that way.

 

[DarkMagic]

True, I sweated a lot paying $130 for the original BRJ back in 08. Back then I was a also a Hasbro SW collector, spent more money on that then I spend on HT now. At least that is how I justify paying the crazy prices these days..

The funny thing is, we control the pricing, however like a tiger being controlled in a zoo we just take it in the ass..not truly realizing we have the power to change things.

If we don't buy, things don't sell, prices drop.

You're talking as if collector's are a monolith. We're not. For a lot of collectors, even if a HT figure was $100, that would be too much for them. At the other end, you've got the people who would happily pay several grand for a 1:1 scale endoskeleton or Han in Carbonite. And there are collectors at every level in between. "We" don't take it, because there is no uniform "we" in the first place. Some people decide it's too much, and they drop out. There will be others that are willing (and easily able) to pay.

 

[The Clown Prince of Crime]

The number one rule of collecting is don't buy it if you're going to be unhappy that you can't flip it.

 

[juanca33]

I might pass on this one, Im judging by the predator figure that this figure is releasing by august or september and im already flexpaying for a Sideshow Plissken and the bat armory. So my budget is limited.

 

[DiFabio]

I hope the people who actually make these complex outfits and dolls on the production level are being taken care of. I'd hate to think that these little works of art are the product of sweatshop slave labor. Otherwise I'll pay the price only if i feel the craftsmanship and overall package demand it. The number one rule of collecting is don't buy it if you're going to be unhappy that you can't flip it.

I doubt it.

 

[spindrift]

I've been reading this thread on the go since last night and wanted to say so much, but you pretty much said everything that I wanted to already.

I'm not as disheartened with the hobby as you are (yet) and I'm still enjoying collecting, but there are definitely things (both from the custom & licensed sides) that are souring me pretty badly. Leaving what bugs me about the custom world aside, the HT price hikes are really starting to become a major turn off. Overall, the product has absolutely improved over the years but I'm wondering how much of the price hike can really be attributed to higher production costs and how much is just a matter of exploiting customers. I don't see Chan's books so all I can do is assume and speculate, but I feel that a company of their size and stature are probably at a point where they're running more cost effectively than they ever have.

The way it’s turning me off is more principle than anything. If they were able to sell Cap TFA for $160 2 years ago, why is basically the same set $90 more now? Were they not profitable at the $160 retail price point? Of course they were but they’re not looking to just profit anymore, their looking to rape and pillage. They lightly pushed, nobody flinched. They shoved, nobody blinked. They punched, we turn the other cheek. They're really starting to be blinded by greed and this upward trend is getting downright insulting. They are definitely going to burst their own bubble and then it’ll be too late to go back. If they’re any smart they will make these hikes plateau before it’s too late. We know that the standard is now set so we’ll never see decreases, but I can’t see them staying in business if the average MMS is $300+




It's rare when you see a customizer talk against the prices of the custom market. As someone who paints, has their own two hands in the artistry of the hobby, and could grasp how a mom & pop shop works, I'm surprised to hear you say this.

I understand that there plenty of non-customizers that don't get the differences between the custom and licensed figs, and I think that comes from a lot of misconceptions and general lack of knowledge. Really the only similarity is superficial… they are both 1/6 figures, but everything that's behind each make them two completely different products. If Iminime had the resources to produce as efficiently as HT then I'm sure you would see them more similarly priced; but as Kara already said that would mean them making 8000 of a specific figure, not 80 ... huge difference in production costs. I willing to bet that at half the retail price HT makes a better profit percentage per piece than Iminime does. The more intimate size of the team and the more hand crafted method as opposed to the factory, mass produced, big scale production has a lot to do with it. That’s what makes one an “art figure” and the other a really nice “high end toy”. Things like rarity and getting characters from licenses that the HT of the world will never touch are just bonuses

Great points all well made!!!!

 

[morphosis]

Great points all well made!!!!

Actually i have to disagree with him a lot. Rape and Pillage. awful choice of words....give me a break!!! You gotta blame the Secondary market FIRST!! HTs cant just sit there and put up figures for $160 and see the 2nd Market selling them for $450+ during PO time. If things sell out and then go up on eBay because the value went up, thats one thing. But figures are constantly 2 to 3 times the cost on eBay and other markets during PO stage, and hundreds and thousands of people buy them. And the ones who like to pay more to get them first keep growing every day. This is the consumer behavior. We the customers have done this. If we didnt pay $450 to PO a figure off eBay, the figures would probably go up less in price than they have. But even still you cant expect things to cost the same today compared to 2008 or 2010, etc. Gas in 2008 was $1.87...now its close to $4.00, or over $4.00 in areas. That itself makes EVERYTHING go up in price production wise. It effects EVERYTHING. And thats only 1 of many things that cause things to go up in price.

And if Iminime could produce 8,000 of a figure, he would not be able to charge $160 each figure either. It would cost wayyyy more than that. There are 1:6 companies out there making a subpar products compared to HTs but charging the same or more for their licensed figures.

If you can't keep up with the "market", then there isn't a lot you can do. You cant blame just HTs or the toy companies. "We" have to take a lot of the blame ourselves.

 

[RaBu]

I doubt it.

well they can give me one for free if they make so much of it

 

[spindrift]

Actually i have to disagree with him a lot. Rape and Pillage. awful choice of words....give me a break!!! You gotta blame the Secondary market FIRST!! HTs cant just sit there and put up figures for $160 and see the 2nd Market selling them for $450+ during PO time. If things sell out and then go up on eBay because the value went up, thats one thing. But figures are constantly 2 to 3 times the cost on eBay and other markets during PO stage, and hundreds and thousands of people buy them. And the ones who like to pay more to get them first keep growing every day. This is the consumer behavior. We the customers have done this. If we didnt pay $450 to PO a figure off eBay, the figures would probably go up less in price than they have. But even still you cant expect things to cost the same today compared to 2008 or 2010, etc. Gas in 2008 was $1.87...now its close to $4.00, or over $4.00 in areas. That itself makes EVERYTHING go up in price production wise. It effects EVERYTHING. And thats only 1 of many things that cause things to go up in price.

And if Iminime could produce 8,000 of a figure, he would not be able to charge $160 each figure either. It would cost wayyyy more than that. There are 1:6 companies out there making a subpar products compared to HTs but charging the same or more for their licensed figures.

If you can't keep up with the "market", then there isn't a lot you can do. You cant blame just HTs or the toy companies. "We" have to take a lot of the blame ourselves.

Well said, too!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes WE are to blame for "supporting" higher prices. HT will go as far as the market will bear and it apparently is a wide berth when talking about these!