1/6 Hot Toys - MMS 320 - Star Wars Ep.VII - Kylo Ren

[Manannin]

Sorry to change the subject briefly, but does anybody have an ETA for Sideshow (other than their Jen-Feb estimate? It's usually 6-8 weeks after Hong Kong right? So when did this officially release?

I understand this will have been answered somewhere in this thread but I am on a mobile browser and the movie version of the search function is not the most user friendly... Thanks guys!

 

[klwn]

Everything klwn is saying - spot on.

Fisto, Tiin and Kolar just standing there doing nothing while Palpatine stabs and slashes them is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen in the Star Wars franchise. It's obvious they were trying to show that Sidious is so skilled that they didn't stand a chance, but they failed miserably at that because they didn't even try to defend themselves. They just stood there and did nothing like idiots. Then you have the actual Windu vs Palpatine fight, which was almost as slow as the OT duels. Even as a kid watching that in theaters I was baffled. It was just awful, awful choreography.

I don't care how many props or locations were used in the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight, it was fantastic. It accurately demonstrated the fighting skill of a force user. As did Obi vs Maul and Anakin vs Dooku in RotS.

The sad thing is, there were so many options they could have explored for those three kills... Palpatine force/lightning pushing one or two of them into a wall, throwing his lightsaber to impale one of them before he even gets up, choking another... I don't know, the possibilities are quite varied, and obvious. Too bad really, this could have been an AWESOME scene.

In the end that's what I want to see, you summed it up: skills. That's why I am so pumped and hopeful for VIII and IX, I really hope they get that part right.

When you compare his fight against Windu and his fight against Yoda, it's blatantly obvious that Sidious wasn't going in full power against Windu. He needed Anakin to see Windu try to kill him without trial, and in doing so, going against the main tenet of the Jedi Code (There is not ignorance, there is knowledge). He used this hypocrisy to cast doubt on the Jedi's beliefs and to finally turn him. (It wasn't just Padme, it was his doubting everything the Jedi stood for.) He needed to look vulnerable, and like "an unarmed prisoner." The seeds of guilt were already sown in Anakin from when he killed an unarmed Dooku. He wouldn't make that same mistake again. It was actually pretty brilliant.

In the fight against Yoda, he had already won Vader over and just went ballistic on Yoda. This is truly the best fight in the whole saga. It's fast, furious, and incorporates the force powers of the Grand Master of the Jedi and the one of the most powerful Sith to ever live.

Yeah, I agree, I just wish the whole toying with Windu thing wouldn't have turned the fight in something out of the OT.

And Yoda vs Sidious is probably my favorite as well, freaking insane display of power involving two amazing and iconic characters that weren't explored nearly enough in the OT when it comes to fighting.

 

[wadeit0ut]

Sorry to change the subject briefly, but does anybody have an ETA for Sideshow (other than their Jen-Feb estimate? It's usually 6-8 weeks after Hong Kong right? So when did this officially release?

I understand this will have been answered somewhere in this thread but I am on a mobile browser and the movie version of the search function is not the most user friendly... Thanks guys!

Jan-Feb. There is no better ETA at the moment.

 

[FlyAndFight]

Yep, I was the same way about him until I saw him in action.

Pretty sure he could kick Maul's ass.



Here we go....

I blame you for at least 7 pages of sidetracking...

 

[xenowolf]

...

 

[DVDVampire]

Fisto did put up more of a fight in the book, but yeah... dispatching three masters in mere seconds was just crap.

 

[Wor-Gar]

I blame you for at least 7 pages of sidetracking...

Wha.....? Little ol' me?

 

[Yorick]

You guys make great points, and I do still consider a lot of the expanded universe (even if it's not canon anymore). The following is my opinion, but I don't buy the Sidious was manipulating everything in that fight. To me, the main difference between the mace X Palpatine and Yoda X Palpatine fight was due Lucas interest in doing the last fight to mirror anakins X obiwan in grandeur. But by movies alone, I agree mace was not that impressive.

The reason I don't buy the manipulation theory is that no smart being would leave so much beyond his control. If Anakin had not disobeyed Mace and gone to where they were fighting, he would be dead. To me, he gave the final push to Anakin exactly because he needed it in order not to die cause he lost to mace.

The three Jedi that died in the beginning of the fight were simple bad directing, he wanted to show how powerful Palpatine was and ended up destroying those characters (at least, as lightsaber fighters, cause they were pathetic). There are many others, for instance, the jump that obiwan does to kill Maul is way more Incredible than Anakin's poor attempt on mustafa, when he looses the fight. After every special move in the trilogy, the "I have the higher ground" was the stupidest excuse to win a fight I ever saw (even jar jar is capable of a better jump).

But that's just my opinion. I don't know who would be better, specially cause I do believe that a exceptional fighter might have a bad fighter and a good one might have an exceptional day. At first, I do believe Mace and Yoda are above all others, with Palpatine as their match on the Sith side.

In the end, all the mentioned Jedi / Sith (and even a few more) were excellent at their peak.

 

[klwn]

Anakin jumping vs Obi-Wan was a huge shortcut. They just needed a way to justify him turning into the Vader from the OT and couldn't come up with another excuse for Obi-Wan to cut off so many limbs.
He had tons of options and they made him choose the worst because... they needed him to.

Hell, I even saw a video recently and the guy was saying that he could have force thrown lava at Obi-Wan haha

 

[wadeit0ut]

Rankings like these are impossibly because you are basing them on things a director/fight choreographer wanted to do. If you base it off POTENTIAL it would have to be something like;

1) Vader
2) Kylo
3) Sidious
4) Tyranus
5) Maul

Just based on Midichlorians being a canon thing. We don't know the counts for Sidious/Tyranus/Maul but we can assume the order of those and we know they are lower than the Skywalker line.

 

[Wor-Gar]

He had tons of options ...

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


Wait -- isn't that an absolute?

 

[xenowolf]

I don't buy the Sidious was manipulating everything in that fight. To me, the main difference between the mace X Palpatine and Yoda X Palpatine fight was due Lucas interest in doing the last fight to mirror anakins X obiwan in grandeur. But by movies alone, I agree mace was not that impressive.

The reason I don't buy the manipulation theory is that no smart being would leave so much beyond his control. If Anakin had not disobeyed Mace and gone to where they were fighting, he would be dead. To me, he gave the final push to Anakin exactly because he needed it in order not to die cause he lost to mace.

The three Jedi that died in the beginning of the fight were simple bad directing, he wanted to show how powerful Palpatine was and ended up destroying those characters (at least, as lightsaber fighters, cause they were pathetic).

Palpatine manipulated the entire galaxy into war and played the senate like a puppet master, he could cloud the minds and judgement of the greatest Jedi masters, he carefully cultivated his relationship with anakin for years leading up to that point, he had more patience and skill with the force then anyone ever could have imagined. So I don't think palpatine left anything out of his control, he knew exactly what anakin would do because he could sense that his long laid out plan to turn him had worked.

 

[Yorick]

Anakin jumping vs Obi-Wan was a huge shortcut. They just needed a way to justify him turning into the Vader from the OT and couldn't come up with another excuse for Obi-Wan to cut off so many limbs.
He had tons of options and they made him choose the worst because... they needed him to.

Hell, I even saw a video recently and the guy was saying that he could have force thrown lava at Obi-Wan haha

I completely agree with you.

I saw that on a video too. It was an animated funny movie and Anakin kept saying "and to me, you have the lava ground".

Rankings like these are impossibly because you are basing them on things a director/fight choreographer wanted to do. If you base it off POTENTIAL it would have to be something like;

1) Vader
2) Kylo
3) Sidious
4) Tyranus
5) Maul

Just based on Midichlorians being a canon thing. We don't know the counts for Sidious/Tyranus/Maul but we can assume the order of those and we know they are lower than the Skywalker line.

Well, sadly (just because I try really hard to forget about the mitochondrias, sorry, I mean, Midichlorians), you are right about the potential thing, but that is for connection with the force, fighting with a lightsaber demands other skills and talents too.
A greater strength with the force would be a big plus, no doubt about that.


In the end, the only real answer is the same for the classic Batman vs Superman question. (Not trying to sidetrack the thread even more, quite the opposite).

Who would win ?
Whomever the director/writer/producer want.

 

[wadeit0ut]

Well, sadly (just because I try really hard to forget about the mitochondrias, sorry, I mean, Midichlorians), you are right about the potential thing, but that is for connection with the force, fighting with a lightsaber demands other skills and talents too.
A greater strength with the force would be a big plus, no doubt about that.

Well the connection to the force has a lot to do with how well you fight though. People are completely whooshing on this but Obi-Wan in ANH said that the Force can basically take control of you and guide your actions, which is basically what we saw with Rey at the end of TFA. The force does a lot more than just let you push/pull/choke things. It gives you foresight which leads to incredible reflexes.

This is a dumb conversation though lol.

 

[SNIKT1950]

Palpatine manipulated the entire galaxy into war and played the senate like a puppet master, he could cloud the minds and judgement of the greatest Jedi masters, he carefully cultivated his relationship with anakin for years leading up to that point, he had more patience and skill with the force then anyone ever could have imagined. So I don't think palpatine left anything out of his control, he knew exactly what anakin would do because he could sense that his long laid out plan to turn him had worked.

This. Sidious was the Sith. The equivalent to Anakin but for The Dark Side.

 

[Aliaz]

More like Obi vs Anakin? That fight was a disaster because of how "impressive" and grand they tried to make it, with all of the rope swinging and balancing on tiny droids and all of the other distracting CGI crap they tried to cram in that scene. The best fights are the ones that are personal and focused on the characters who are fighting. Not the ones that try and cram in as many set-pieces and locations as possible.

I was actually fairly impressed by how subdued they chose to make the fight, especially after nearly ruining the scene with that campy bit of Palpatine spinning through the air.

Well said. I love the duel in TFA.

 

[klwn]

This. Sidious was the Sith. The equivalent to Anakin but for The Dark Side.

Yes, that sums it up. Sidious truly was the Sith. The power and skills he had accumulated were tremendous and way beyond what the Jedi Order expected.

I completely agree with you.

I saw that on a video too. It was an animated funny movie and Anakin kept saying "and to me, you have the lava ground".

Oh yeah now that you mention it, it probably was that video from the HISHE channel

Also let's not forget Obi-Wan leaving him there to die in agony. I get that he was incredibly mad and hurting from the whole Anakin murdering younglings event and how he betrayed everyone, but it's really unlike Obi-Wan (or any proper Jedi in general). At least drive the lightsaber through his brains and make it stop
But yeah finding a way to make Anakin go from that to OT Vader wasn't an easy task I guess. Could have been worse.

 

[ironwez20]

Does anybody know how obiwan found out darth Vader was anakin? In episode 3 he thought he killed him right? So obiwan is on tatooine looking after Luke while Vader is around the galaxy killing people , does obiwan just figure it's anakin from news about what's happening in the empire? I guess it's easy to figure out that the man with robotic limbs is the person you thought you killed.

 

[wadeit0ut]

Does anybody know how obiwan found out darth Vader was anakin? In episode 3 he thought he killed him right? So obiwan is on tatooine looking after Luke while Vader is around the galaxy killing people , does obiwan just figure it's anakin from news about what's happening in the empire? I guess it's easy to figure out that the man with robotic limbs is the person you thought you killed.

How would he not know? He knows Sidious is Palpatine, who then became the emperor. And then he has a apprentice running around in a life support suit.

 

[Wor-Gar]

Probably everyone in the galaxy knows Vader's real name... big joke on Luke.

I mean, how would you not know? Famous Anakin turns evil famously.... then rumors spread that he's been put into a dark suit.