1/6 Hot Toys - Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Vice Admiral Holdo - SPECULATION

[Mad Old Lu]

Being in the military myself, that's not really how it works at all. The opposite actually.

Also, don't make this a SJW gender thing. Leia is a woman and no one hates her. Holdo is just a crap character.

You don't want to "subvert expectations" when you are in command. You want everyone to know and feel that you are both in charge and credible to lead as soon as you walk in the room. Otherwise you end up with exactly what you saw in the movie; disillusioned followers who aren't going to be motivated to follow your orders.

That's why the military has standards of dress and appearance, and exactly why we don't allow this kind of nonsense in the real military. It encourages discipline and gives everyone regardless of rank a common mindset to relate to each other on.

Having spent years studying real leadership, Holdo was every single example of what not to do.

I can completely understand how that would make you feel annoyed and angry. I know when I see my field represented in movies or TV and they get it totally wrong (they always do), it makes me pull my hair out!

 

[JonWes]

The interesting thing about the Holdo/Poe thing... I think they are both making mistakes here.

It's funny, but I read that in the original version Holdo was actually MORE condescending to Poe. They softened that some. I sort of am sad about that, because I think the character might have worked better that way. Even if you didn't like the character as much by the end, I think the movie wouldn't have felt like it was siding so much with Holdo. I mean, ultimately, I think Poe DID need to learn this lesson about leadership, but I think Holdo and Poe both make mistakes here.

They are obviously subverting audience expectations here by presenting a military commander who looks out of place. It's easy to say "ignore that SJW stuff" but I think it's kind of intrinsically linked to the character and what she represents. That's, like, her point. Poe says as much. It's not what he expected. It's not what we expect. And there's a certain amount of distrust, there. Is she REALLY going to be an effective leader? Does she know what she's doing? I don't think we, as audiences, should feel BAD about thinking that. I just think it's weird to STILL think she didn't know what she was doing, and was anything less than a hero, by the end of the movie. Which is not to say, however, that's she's PERFECT.

Spoiler

The answer, I think, is that she DOES have a plan. But I think she makes assumptions about Poe just like he makes assumptions about her. Unlike Leia, who sees his potential and knows him, she just sees him as some underling who is too big for his britches and just got a lot of people killed and was demoted. Their underestimation of each other is really what gets so many more Resistance members killed. Yes, at the end she says that she likes him, but I think that's only after the mutiny, funnily enough, as she sees his heart and potential too. As an audience member, I thought it was awesome when Poe mutinied because it was in character and seemed like what needed to be done. But then I thought it was awesome when Holdo (and then Leia) turned the tables and then we found out the major plan.

Getting back to whether they make a figure or not... I was being pretty facetious with my earlier responses, but honestly, I would TOTALLY buy Holdo and Rose, both. Some characters I buy because they are so visually cool or intricate and make amazing Hot Toys figures. Some characters I buy because I like the actor or like the character. With Holdo, I think she's visually arresting AND I love the actor AND I ended up really liking the character. It might have helped that I read the Leia book she was introduced in, though. So, yeah, I don't EXPECT Hot Toys to make her... but I'd buy her.

 

[Mad Old Lu]

Very well put, JonWes.

Also, check your spoiler tag. It doesn't seem to be working.

 

[hen88]

Why not just tell Poe the plan? He was a commander after all and let's face it, apparently one of the few resistance troops remaining. Why continue to let him feel they were committing suicide? And if weaponizing hyper space/drives was such a great plan why were the OT rebels not constantly bombarding large Imperial ships with kamikaze spacecraft and bailing out on escape pods? And for fun I'll again ask why Holdo usurps Ackbar? Especially considering the resistance now numbers about 50 or less, yet Poe has never met Holdo and seems to barely know who she is

I'm not trying to take this out on you Lu but the more I think about the movie, the more I absolutely hate it.

He basically got half the fleet killed because he was so obsessed with taking down a dreadnought warship. She saw his actions as careless and cavalier. She didn't feel that he deserved to take part in leadership decisions.

 

[hen88]

Thank you Mad Old Lu and JonWes for your insightful comments. This thread was clearly started as a joke to make fun of yet another female hero and comment on her "hot or not" status. Thanks for elevating the conversation.

 

[TurdFurgusonsHat]

He basically got half the fleet killed because he was so obsessed with taking down a dreadnought warship. She saw his actions as careless and cavalier. She didn't feel that he deserved to take part in leadership decisions.

Nobody on that ship seems to know who she is? It's as if the resistance was bought up by Disney and Kathleen Kennedy prances out on the bridge to chastise Poe and give him his orders.

If Poe was really that out of line going after the big ship, then so was the entire rebel crew in Rogue One who went after death star plans. Also Luke was a fool for attempting to save Leia and his friends before completing his training with Yoda. Heroes sometimes take chances and improvise in the moment.

 

[ajp4mgs]

Why not just tell Poe the plan? He was a commander after all and let's face it, apparently one of the few resistance troops remaining. Why continue to let him feel they were committing suicide? And if weaponizing hyper space/drives was such a great plan why were the OT rebels not constantly bombarding large Imperial ships with kamikaze spacecraft and bailing out on escape pods? And for fun I'll again ask why Holdo usurps Ackbar? Especially considering the resistance now numbers about 50 or less, yet Poe has never met Holdo and seems to barely know who she is

I'm not trying to take this out on you Lu but the more I think about the movie, the more I absolutely hate it.

The other stuff I can overlook, forgive, or explain. But this part that I put in bold has bothered me right from the get go, and I can't get around it. In Force Awakens, we clearly see that Poe is an important member of Leia's resistance. She trusts him. In TLJ, we also see a lot of the same Resistance leadership/inner circle from TFA who Poe interacts with. So how does Poe not even recognize the person who is Leia's second-in-command? A guy who had enough distinction to think he might get to lead the Resistance while Leia was incapacitated, and he's never even seen the high-ranking Holdo? In what was already a small Resistance, and getting smaller in TLJ, how does that make any sense? Is there some explanation in the novel she was created in to explain how/why she could be next in line yet still never be present enough for Poe to have seen her before?

If there's no explanation for this, then the character would seem to have been shoehorned into the SW franchise just to make some kind of point. Not a good idea to sacrifice continuity, plot integrity, and logic for that. Unless it can be explained, it's more than just Holdo's look and outfit that don't fit with the rest of the story (and SW in general).

And I find the suggestion that male Star Wars fans just can't handle seeing women in power to be absolutely absurd. We've had a princess right from the start who bosses the boys around, makes them look silly at times, and was absolutely awesome (and loved) in doing so. We've had Senator/Queen Amidala in the prequels; Mon Mothma in ROTJ; General Leia in the ST . . . It's not a foreign concept. It is indeed possible to dislike a character for reasons that have nothing to do with gender or ethnicity. The growing trend of dismissing longtime Star Wars fans as somehow being bigoted is getting very tiresome.

 

[Cagoda]

Being in the military myself, that's not really how it works at all. The opposite actually.

Also, don't make this a SJW gender thing. Leia is a woman and no one hates her. Holdo is just a crap character.

You don't want to "subvert expectations" when you are in command. You want everyone to know and feel that you are both in charge and credible to lead as soon as you walk in the room. Otherwise you end up with exactly what you saw in the movie; disillusioned followers who aren't going to be motivated to follow your orders.

That's why the military has standards of dress and appearance, and exactly why we don't allow this kind of nonsense in the real military. It encourages discipline and gives everyone regardless of rank a common mindset to relate to each other on.

Having spent years studying real leadership, Holdo was every single example of what not to do.

YES! This!

Also anyone know why Leia didn't just stop the bombers when Poe gave them the green light? It's like she was pulling everybody out but still allowed Poe to give orders over her?
Man, the Resistance is just a complete mess.

 

[hen88]

Nobody on that ship seems to know who she is? It's as if the resistance was bought up by Disney and Kathleen Kennedy prances out on the bridge to chastise Poe and give him his orders.

If Poe was really that out of line going after the big ship, then so was the entire rebel crew in Rogue One who went after death star plans. Also Luke was a fool for attempting to save Leia and his friends before completing his training with Yoda. Heroes sometimes take chances and improvise in the moment.

Yes - but Poe's cavalier leadership in that situation has the highest body count of all. I think they said it was around 400 people. Also - Luke was trying to save his friends and the Rogue One crew was trying to steal plans for the Deathstar. Poe just wanted to blow stuff up. It was misguided, and that's why Leia slapped him.

 

[screamingmetal]

The thing about Holdo not telling Poe the main plan, in the special forces the team knows the plan and helps facilitate it (the way SEAL Team Six helped plan Operation Neptune Spear). I see Poe as the equivalent of a special forces operator and despite him being demoted for his actions, I strongly believe he would've been told the plan and helped make it happen especially considering that the Resistance was down to only a handful of people.

 

[hokietwo]

Damn it you guys need to stop trying to put sense in a senseless script. Seems if they consulted with a military person instead of a beautician this would have worked out much better than it did. But then again its not going to go the way you think.

 

[hen88]

Damn it you guys need to stop trying to put sense in a senseless script. Seems if they consulted with a military person instead of a beautician this would have worked out much better than it did. But then again its not going to go the way you think.

The movie makes plenty of sense. You just don't like it. There's a difference.

 

[hokietwo]

The movie makes plenty of sense. You just don't like it. There's a difference.

Yeah, I mean who doesn't like a rehash of Empire and Jedi with the main plot point ripped from Battlestar Galactica with a sprinkle of "Coexist" on top. It seriously is ok for someone to think this movie sucked because..... it sucked. Almost half of the world thinks so.

EDIT:
Sorry, half of the world. Rotten tomatoes is now at 50%. I had to fact check myself.

 

[JonWes]

The other stuff I can overlook, forgive, or explain. But this part that I put in bold has bothered me right from the get go, and I can't get around it. In Force Awakens, we clearly see that Poe is an important member of Leia's resistance. She trusts him. In TLJ, we also see a lot of the same Resistance leadership/inner circle from TFA who Poe interacts with. So how does Poe not even recognize the person who is Leia's second-in-command? A guy who had enough distinction to think he might get to lead the Resistance while Leia was incapacitated, and he's never even seen the high-ranking Holdo? In what was already a small Resistance, and getting smaller in TLJ, how does that make any sense? Is there some explanation in the novel she was created in to explain how/why she could be next in line yet still never be present enough for Poe to have seen her before?

Let's look at a few things here. A) People are saying that Claudia Gray created Holdo. That is... unlikely. Much more likely, she just used the character in her Leia book in order to tie it more strongly with continuity. B) There is nothing in the book that talks about her and Poe because it takes place in Leia's youth pre-A New Hope.

As for your other point, I thought the way it was presented made it clear that Holdo was from a different cell in the resistance. Remember, the Resistance isn't a formal army. It's an association of volunteers. The fact that Leia is a general (an army rank) and Holdo is a Vice Admiral (a navy rank) actually made me think they were from two different structures of command, and therefor different cells. Leia had the main cell. But Holdo controlled a different cell. This makes sense. It's a big galaxy, after all. I feel like the only reason the whole Resistance pulled together was because D'Qar had to be evacuated and it was pretty much an "all hands on deck" situation for every ship that could make it.

Holdo isn't Leia's functional second in command. That would have been Ackbar, I believe. But she's the next person in RANK in the Resistance. So, it's possible Poe and Holdo never met, especially if they were in different parts of the galaxy.

Yeah, I mean who doesn't like a rehash of Empire and Jedi with the main plot point ripped from Battlestar Galactica with a sprinkle of "Coexist" on top. It seriously is ok for someone to think this movie sucked because..... it sucked. Almost half of the United States thinks so.

EDIT:
Sorry, half of the United States. Rotten tomatoes is now at 50%. I had to fact check myself.

Bwa ha ha ha. Yeah. Rotten Tomatoes is a statistically accurate representation of the United States.

 

[hokietwo]

Let's look at a few things here. A) People are saying that Claudia Gray created Holdo. That is... unlikely. Much more likely, she just used the character in her Leia book in order to tie it more strongly with continuity. B) There is nothing in the book that talks about her and Poe because it takes place in Leia's youth pre-A New Hope.

As for your other point, I thought the way it was presented made it clear that Holdo was from a different cell in the resistance. Remember, the Resistance isn't a formal army. It's an association of volunteers. The fact that Leia is a general (an army rank) and Holdo is a Vice Admiral (a navy rank) actually made me think they were from two different structures of command, and therefor different cells. Leia had the main cell. But Holdo controlled a different cell. This makes sense. It's a big galaxy, after all. I feel like the only reason the whole Resistance pulled together was because D'Qar had to be evacuated and it was pretty much an "all hands on deck" situation for every ship that could make it.

Holdo isn't Leia's functional second in command. That would have been Ackbar, I believe. But she's the next person in RANK in the Resistance. So, it's possible Poe and Holdo never met, especially if they were in different parts of the galaxy.



Bwa ha ha ha. Yeah. Rotten Tomatoes is a statistically accurate representation of the United States.

I really hope you are happy and successful in life. Because as much time and effort you use to dissect a movie and push social agenda for something so meaningless as your opinion is just redic. If you are not happy and successful I certainly understand why.

Party on Wayne......

 

[hen88]

Yeah, I mean who doesn't like a rehash of Empire and Jedi with the main plot point ripped from Battlestar Galactica with a sprinkle of "Coexist" on top. It seriously is ok for someone to think this movie sucked because..... it sucked. Almost half of the world thinks so.

EDIT:
Sorry, half of the world. Rotten tomatoes is now at 50%. I had to fact check myself.

Rotten Tomatoes user reviews are laughable. They are nowhere near the equivalent of a scientific poll and absolutely do not represent what the world thinks of TLJ. It's more likely that these reviews are a handful (a few thousand) internet trolls who inexplicably hated the movie and created duplicate accounts to make it seem like there's this massive backlash. Cinemascore is actual polling, and they gave it an "A."

 

[hokietwo]

Rotten Tomatoes user reviews are laughable. They are nowhere near the equivalent of a scientific poll and absolutely do not represent what the world thinks of TLJ. It's more likely that these reviews are a handful (a few thousand) internet trolls who inexplicably hated the movie and created duplicate accounts to make it seem like there's this massive backlash. Cinemascore is actual polling, and they gave it an "A."

Sure, so why did no one heavily criticize the site until a Disney flick bombed and a billion dollar franchise got a big one up the butt?

 

[hen88]

Sure, so why did no one heavily criticize the site until a Disney flick bombed and a billion dollar franchise got a big one up the butt?

TLJ is the opposite of a "bomb." It's surpassed $1 billion in the box office. Here's a link for all you "fake newsers": https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2017/12/30/box-office-star-wars-the-last-jedi-has-2nd-best-3rd-friday-drop-ever-for-100m-opener/#5953f7bf77e2

 

[Cagoda]

Every single thread in this forum always turns into a huge dumpster fire.

 

[hen88]

Every single thread in this forum always turns into a huge dumpster fire.

I wonder why when people start threads ragging on women and talking about how lame their characters are while at the same time reducing their worth to whether they are "hot or not." I'm honestly sick of it. Someone has to be a voice for decency.