LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[Darth Caedus]

One question regarding Eloise and Daniel. Why would Eloise (post-Island) work so hard in preparing Daniel for his eventual return and death (at her hands) to the island?
Once she has the journal and realizes that she has killed her own son, why couldn't she simply refuse to participate in setting up that whole future event? What could have possibly made her feel or think that it HAD to happen? We know she leaves the island and eventually gives birth to Daniel. What if she simply disappears with him to Pigsknuckle, Arkansas and raises Daniel as a supposed "normal" child, not forcing him into a career in theoretical quantum physics? Daniel becomes the manager at the local Walmart and lives a long and quiet life. He never goes back to the island to get shot by her. The space/time continuum is forever altered?

Whatever happened, happened. I think she must believe in that. In order for Daniel to be on Widmore's boat and for him to go back in time for her to shoot him, he HAD to be brought up like he was so that he could have the career which would lead him to do those things. Remember, Eloise believed in "destiny" and that sort of thing. Daniel, who didn't believe in it, tried to change the future by changing the past. If Eloise believe, like Daniel believed, she wouldn't have led him down his path, but she didn't.

 

[FlyAndFight]

I'm not liking that "Whatever happened, happened" mantra, though. (even though it does make some sense...)

It looks to me like Locke is the monkey wrench in the gears, the fly in the ointment, to that theory. He keeps surprising both Ben and Richard, lately. He was supposed to be "dead" and yet he is revived on the island. He's telling Richard what to do and what to expect. He seems to know more about "Jacob" than the other two as well. He's lying to Sun, only because it's convenient to do so. He keeps managing to survive.

 

[Darth Caedus]

I'm not liking that "Whatever happened, happened" mantra, though. (even though it does make some sense...)

It looks to me like Locke is the monkey wrench in the gears, the fly in the ointment, to that theory. He keeps surprising both Ben and Richard, lately. He was supposed to be "dead" and yet he is revived on the island. He's telling Richard what to do and what to expect. He seems to know more about "Jacob" than the other two as well. He's lying to Sun, only because it's convenient to do so. He keeps managing to survive.

Watching some of the previous episode again, it seems that Ben is almost showing mock-surprise to what Locke is doing. May just be me, but it seems that way.

 

[Moonloop]

Whatever happened, happened. I think she must believe in that. In order for Daniel to be on Widmore's boat and for him to go back in time for her to shoot him, he HAD to be brought up like he was so that he could have the career which would lead him to do those things. Remember, Eloise believed in "destiny" and that sort of thing. Daniel, who didn't believe in it, tried to change the future by changing the past. If Eloise believe, like Daniel believed, she wouldn't have led him down his path, but she didn't.

So if Eloise never "guided" Daniel to be on the freighter. Would he somehow by some other reason/means end up on the freighter anyways?

 

[Entropy]

One question regarding Eloise and Daniel. Why would Eloise (post-Island) work so hard in preparing Daniel for his eventual return and death (at her hands) to the island?
Once she has the journal and realizes that she has killed her own son, why couldn't she simply refuse to participate in setting up that whole future event? What could have possibly made her feel or think that it HAD to happen? We know she leaves the island and eventually gives birth to Daniel. What if she simply disappears with him to Pigsknuckle, Arkansas and raises Daniel as a supposed "normal" child, not forcing him into a career in theoretical quantum physics? Daniel becomes the manager at the local Walmart and lives a long and quiet life. He never goes back to the island to get shot by her. The space/time continuum is forever altered?

As she explains to Desmond about the man with red shoes, the universe will course correct. And trying to prevent events that already occurred, such as the plan to prevent The Incident, will only result in unforeseen or unexpected means that cause what you have been trying to prevent all along, such as the detonation of the bomb causing the Incident, hurling the Losties back to their correct time and reuniting the 2 groups.

What happens, happens and there is no altering the timeline that you yourself are a product of. Elosie learns this difficult lesson in 1978 from the failed attempt to prevent The Incident and attempt to save her son and prevent him from ever coming to the island.

 

[Entropy]

So if Eloise never "guided" Daniel to be on the freighter. Would he somehow by some other reason/means end up on the freighter anyways?

Just like Elosie smothering Daniel as baby in his crib, there is no 'if'. It can't happen because she already shot him years earlier. Past events dictate and shape future ones. Theoretical changes of past events change all subsequent future events which alters you changing the past events in the first place. Paradox city. It's why you can't save JFK or kill Hitler.

 

[SwedishHeat]

I've been pretty sure they'd reveal Jacob's identity in the season 5 finale ever since the season 3 Nikki & Paulo episode discussing 'The Cobra'. And I would think we'll see him next week because the storyline and Locke are leading us to Jacob not because of any casting business. Or was that just an excuse to sneak in a potential spoiler for everyone?

After the season 2 leakage debacle, you do know they filmed several endings for last season's finale and purposely leaked them, so I wouldn't put 100% of faith in info until it airs.

Which supports the Locke as Jacob theory, if Jacob's identity was leaked, it would be a HUGE blow to the show. I'm not convinced that this new guy IS Jacob.

What was the S2 debacle??

 

[Entropy]

Oops, meant season 3 debacle. The entire flash forward finale was leaked online play by play and spread like wildfire almost 2 weeks before it aired. The writers and producers were understandably pissed and took steps to prevent that for the season 4 finale casket reveal. I'd only assume they would continue the obfuscation for both the 5 and 6 finale.

I luckily avoided that and other big spoilers but have heard of many watching on dvd to catch up having reveals and such accidentally spoiled by friends and co-workers discussing the latest eps.


And of course Jacob could be anyone, but all the clues so far, Locke's black & white eyes, his discussion of 2 sides 'light and dark', the scar over one eye, the 2 #8 rabbits, the "Bad Twin" Lost tie-in book, the 2 Lockes in last week's ep, Locke's gradual grooming and childhood tests by Richard to become leader, that after 4 seasons, the show Expose revealed in a shocker finale that the mysterious bad guy "The Cobra" was a known member of the cast, that Locke has died and is some form of "ghost", all point to him being Jacob. If it isn't him, they've done a remarkable job of embedding misleading clues that point in that direction. Not sure how they'd explain all those away with someone new cast as Jacob.

If it does turn out to be Locke, will he actually kill his future self and move into the cabin?

 

[Agent0028]

I guess I got lucky not getting that spoiler either. I was surprised when it turned out to be the future and not the past. I wonder if we'll ever get an explanation of Jack's statement about being more intoxicated than his father, or if Jack was so messed up that he didn't realize his dad is dead and not upstairs.

 

[Entropy]

My reading of that line was it was put in to strengthen the surprise ending and help sell that it was another flashback not forward and that, yes, Jack was out of it. Plus he'd been seeing his dad on the island and perhaps off, so in a way, maybe Jack's dad was upstairs.

 

[Moonloop]

Which supports the Locke as Jacob theory, if Jacob's identity was leaked, it would be a HUGE blow to the show. I'm not convinced that this new guy IS Jacob.

This casting news about Jacob could be total BS to throw everyone off. And I hope it is, because we shouldn't know who or what Jacob is until we see it live on air.

 

[barryo]

This casting news about Jacob could be total BS to throw everyone off. And I hope it is, because we shouldn't know who or what Jacob is until we see it live on air.

............as neat as lost super fan sites are & i do like talking about lost..........but there is always a few that want to get the one up & spill the beans. i used to frequent lost boards and get info but i found when i knew something and thought i was ahead of everyone it seemed like a hollow victory (ok maybe a lil' dramatic there) when i watched the show and sure enough what i read came to be. now.....i avoid all spoilers as humanly possible, love going into the next episode not knowing.
i love this show tons........but fear to read to much into it because i dont want to know a damn thing other than next weeks preview. that said...........at the end of this wonderful series i plan on purchasing the entire dvd set and diving into every detail...........(and since its on disc...at my leisure..)

 

[Darklord Dave]

Not a bad episode. It wasn't really the Richard centric that tvguide and other places said it was.

But damn did they tease us with Richard building the model of that ship in the bottle. A lot of people theorize that Richard was aboard the Black Rock and that scene I think hinted at it.

I had the same reaction that Ben did when Locke said he was going to kill Jacob. Hopefully we get to actually see the result of the search for Jacob next week....if the season ends with Locke finally seeing what or who Jacob is without showing the audience would be very annoying.

I agree with Tom, I might try to stay away from this thread until the end of next Wednesday. The next 7 days will be the prime time for spoilers to be released.

The episode was alright, it basically had to set up the finale.

So Christian was a dead body on Oceanic 815 and Locke was the dead body on the other flight - perhaps Richard was a dead body on the Black Rock when it crashed?

 

[tomandshell]

So Christian was a dead body on Oceanic 815 and Locke was the dead body on the other flight - perhaps Richard was a dead body on the Black Rock when it crashed?

Hey--I like that idea.

 

[Rock83]

So Christian was a dead body on Oceanic 815 and Locke was the dead body on the other flight - perhaps Richard was a dead body on the Black Rock when it crashed?

Now that is a very interesting theory...

 

[Agent0028]

Yeah that is an interesting idea. Speaking of Christian, I wonder what's going on with Claire.

 

[Wor-Gar]

So what exactly is the rationale for Locke being Jacob?

 

[Darth Caedus]

So Christian was a dead body on Oceanic 815 and Locke was the dead body on the other flight - perhaps Richard was a dead body on the Black Rock when it crashed?

That is one awesome theory

So what exactly is the rationale for Locke being Jacob?

Locke is not Jacob.



On a side note, I'm watching the LOST Episode of "Ace of Cakes" and it's pretty hilarious.

 

[Entropy]

So what exactly is the rationale for Locke being Jacob?

And of course Jacob could be anyone, but all the clues so far, Locke's black & white eyes, his discussion of 2 sides 'light and dark', the scar over one eye, the 2 #8 rabbits, the "Bad Twin" Lost tie-in book, the 2 Lockes in last week's ep, Locke's gradual grooming and childhood tests by Richard to become leader, that after 4 seasons, the show Expose revealed in a shocker finale that the mysterious bad guy "The Cobra" was a known member of the cast, that Locke has died and is some form of "ghost"

As well as his mystical connection to the island and his destiny to be leader and the single frame shot of Jacob in his cabin which many thought looked like Terry O'Quinn, they've setup a lot of duality stuff around Locke. These are not accidental and I assume they will eventually point to something, if not Jacob then something else. Take Locke's backgammon speech to Walt and the subsequent dream Claire had about Locke with 1 white eye, 1 black. Why bother putting stuff like that in if it points to nothing and there is no payoff?? I certainly won't say who or who isn't Jacob as I have not seen the episode yet, just pointing out a bunch of clues throughout the show that seem to be adding to something.

 

[Wor-Gar]

As well as his mystical connection to the island and his destiny to be leader and the single frame shot of Jacob in his cabin which many thought looked like Terry O'Quinn, they've setup a lot of duality stuff around Locke. These are not accidental and I assume they will eventually point to something, if not Jacob then something else. Take Locke's backgammon speech to Walt and the subsequent dream Claire had about Locke with 1 white eye, 1 black. Why bother putting stuff like that in if it points to nothing and there is no payoff?? I certainly won't say who or who isn't Jacob as I have not seen the episode yet, just pointing out a bunch of clues throughout the show that seem to be adding to something.

OK, just curious what the clues were, as I haven't been following this line of thinking. Interesting theory though.