LOST discussion - thar be spoilers ahead!

[Moonloop]

Is there any place I can see this whole season online? I missed a few episodes...

ABC should put the whole season online as early as tomorrow. Just keep checking here: https://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/index?pn=index

 

[Batty]

I thought Hurley brought the guitar case because of Charlie. Just another way of recreating the original flight. I dunno...

 

[dharper]

Wow, this one was all over the place. It's going to take awhile to absorb everything.

 

[Entropy]

Sun, Lapidus, the weird people with the box, the others, the Dharma folks.....I mean there was so much going on and so many damn people. And Phil's death wasn't as satisfying as I had hoped, it felt rushed. I was hoping for a nice satisfying 2 minute scene of Sawyer kicking his ass.

I thought the impaling was nice and everyone I saw it with laughed and cheered when that happened.

Locke....Is Locke, Locke anymore? It really would suck to lose one of the best characters on LOST if it is indeed someone else taking Locke's form. Or is it a Locke from another time frame that somehow came to the island or manifested on it? I mean honestly Locke could be anyone or anything right now. But if it isn't Locke, then that means Locke is dead.

Yup. I think Locke is dead. Interesting if Terry O'Quinn plays this Esau ghost/"Bad Twin" thing next season.

Now we won't know until next season if the hydrogen bomb does indeed blow up, but if it does.....how could they ever rebuild the Swan? The bomb would just annihilate that area and make it totally useless to rebuild. Maybe the electromagnetism somehow prevents the bomb from working how it should and eats up its energy? I don't know, I am just saying that if the bomb blows up as it normally would, then the Swan could not exist.

The Hatch isn't destroyed by The Incident. I think the blast somehow triggers a time jump to reunite everyone in the present.

So if they are saying that Jacob meeting with some of the 815ers prior to the crash....is the reason they did crash. Then that completely changes the facts of the show. Now they didn't say what they meant by Jacob meeting with certain people prior to the crash, but it was a vibe I got.

Nah. He was just redirecting their destinies a bit. He needs them to defeat Esau. What I found VERY interesting was his visit with Illana. Why she was hurt, how she was healed and what exactly Jacob needs from her? I think all of that meeting business was part of Jacob's plan 1 step ahead of Esau, knowing he would eventually find the loophole and kill him. Gonna need to watch that beginning conversation again, but it seemed like Jacob and other guy (Esau) knew who was coming, Richard in the Black Rock, and later the 815ers. The "they're coming" final words for me referred to the 815ers returning to the present and their arrival bringing the eventual death of Esau, who had been held captive in a ghost state in the cabin via the containment circle, and the destruction of the island itself.

Also, anyone make anything of the switch in Lost logos from white on black to black on white? the shifting of power from the overthrow of Jacob by Esau?

 

[Buttmunch]

People are theorizing that the guy in the Begining was Esau......to give you some insight read this:

"Biblical names
Old Testament

* Adam and Eve are the first people created in the Bible.
* Jacob buys his brother Esau's birth right for a bowl of soup. He is the grandson of Abraham (from which the name Bram is derived), and the father of Benjamin and Dan and the great-great-grandfather of Aaron.
* Aaron is the brother of Moses.
* Naomi is the mother-in-law of Ruth.
* Daniel is a significant Hebrew prophet, exiled in Babylon where he is drawn out of retirement to interpret signs.

New Testament

* John the Baptist is Jesus' second cousin. John is also the name of one of Jesus' closest disciples, generally believed to be "the disciple whom Jesus loved".
* James is the "brother" of Jesus. Two of Jesus' disciples are also named James.
* Thomas (Tom) is the disciple of Jesus Christ also referred to as "Doubting Thomas".
* Abaddon is a Hebrew word for destruction, or place of the abyss, according to Revelation 9:11. Abaddon is often believed by biblical scholars to be Satan, the antichrist or a dark angel.
* Christian Shephard's given name is an adjective used to refer to the religion founded by Jesus Christ or its followers.

The Shadow of Death

The Monster/Cerberus may be an allusion to the Shadow of Death that is referred to in the Bible:

Psalm 23:4- "Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me."

Job 38:17- "Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death?"

Isaiah 9:2- "The people walking in darkness, have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned." (Quoted in Matthew 4:16)

Luke 1:79- "to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace" re- John the Baptist going ahead of Jesus."

The point being that LOST appears to have some very very strong ties to the Bible and the story might be going in the direction of the Bible or at least be taking a lot of references to the Bible.

We have already seen LOTS of religious tie ins to the bible on the show, it seems as if the big picture the writers had from the beginning might be in the Bible. I don't know what the significance (if any) of this means, but the similarities are too close to ignore.

Wow! I never caught any of that Biblical connections!

I've always thought Locke's name would somehow tie into the real John Locke somehow.

 

[tomandshell]

I correctly guessed what was in the box! Ask my wife and she will tell you.

So the bomb went off and we now have a major paradox on our hands. Where do they go from here?

Have all of the appearances of Christian, Alex, etc. been Jacob's black-shirted nemesis? Some of the big mythology pieces are falling into place. I'm going to rewatch the entire series over the next nine months and get ready for season six--wherever it may begin...

 

[tomandshell]

I correctly guessed what was in the box! Ask my wife and she will tell you.

So the bomb went off and we now have a major paradox on our hands. Where do they go from here?

Have all of the appearances of Christian, Alex, etc. been Jacob's black-shirted nemesis? Some of the big mythology pieces are falling into place. I'm going to rewatch the entire series over the next nine months and get ready for season six--wherever it may begin...

 

[plasmid303]

That finale was jumbled, and I had the feeling that not much happened except what was telegraphed before in the previous episodes (bomb detonation, Jacob's appearance, etc. etc.). The only surprise was Juliet's death. Still, it was exciting.

The wait for 2010 begins now.

 

[Entropy]

Just re-watched. The conversation Jacob and other guy (Esau) have is very telling. Jacob brought the Black Rock to the island, in some manner, to prove other guy wrong, a wager, about human nature. "They come, they fight, destroy, corrupt. It always ends the same." "It only ends once," Jacob says. Obviously this process has played out several times before. The Losties either end this cycle or cause it to repeat back upon itself like a ouroboros.

I bet the Egyptian tapestry Jacob weaves at the beginning that they never fully reveal has some significance. Since there is an Taweret statue, for Jacob, I bet there is also an Anubis statue for the other guy. The tapestry prolly depicts both.

 

[Giant Chicken]

I enjoyed the finale very much. Pretty much everything that I am thiking has already been said. We too called Locke's body as the contents of the crate.

I am also asuming that the smoke monster works for Esau and revealed itself to Ben in the form of Alex to manipulate him...

Even though it appears that Jacob is dead I have a feeling that he was one step ahead of everybody.

We also got to see Dr. Hanso's hand get jacked up... I am still under the impression that whatever happend, happend. I am not sure how the bomb going off fits into that so I will just have to wait and see...

 

[Giant Chicken]

Also, was the cabin that Locke visited last year the same cabin that Rose and Bernard were living in? Did they paint the painting of Vincent?

 

[CAhobbit]

Also, was the cabin that Locke visited last year the same cabin that Rose and Bernard were living in? Did they paint the painting of Vincent?

Yes, I believe so. It makes sense.

 

[tomandshell]

I think Rose and Bernard's cabin was a different one--Locke couldn't have visited it before the flashes, because they hadn't built it yet, and it wasn't by the beach. I think it's supposed to be the one that Horace built.

Esau was actually more of the good brother in the Bible--Jacob was the one who was jealous and manipulative and tricked his brother out of his birthright. So I'm not so sure I like Esau as the name of the enemy character--Jacob is more the deceiver.

But this character, whatever his name might be, has obviously been busy with his plan throughout the previous five seasons. I believe that he was the one who appeared to Mr. Eko as Yemi (possibly hoping that he might be the loophole he could trick into murdering Jacob), and he did say to Locke, "You're next." Meaning that he was the next potential loophole?

I really question the importance of John Locke now--he's really just dead after all and not the big leader with a special purpose. In fact, I think he was just being used. It was Esau (or whatever his name is) masquerading as post "resurrection" Locke that told Richard that Locke was going to have to die, and Richard didn't see through the trick and passed this information on to real Locke, who had enough faith that he did go ahead with the plan. So Richard never saw the evidence of leadership in Locke's life during his scouting missions--because I think Ben was truly the leader that the Island needed and Locke's "calling" or "purpose" was a hoax. He was just being used.

Meanwhile, Esau was sowing the seeds of doubt in Ben's mind and even ultimately appearing as Alex to encourage his blind faith in "Locke." Richard was foolish enough to break the "one person at a time" rule and two people were granted access to see Jacob--one his enemy and the other one someone who has been tricked into turning against the leader he's been waiting 35 years to see. All along, I think that Esau was orchestrating Ben's fall from power and replacement by Locke, not because Locke was special and a leader, but because he could then take his place and manipulate events to his ends. This was Ben's big moment to finally meet Jacob face to face and he apparently failed the test. His pride got in the way, he was deceived, he lost faith and now he's the Judas figure. However, I think that Jacob had some foresight and has set things in motion to save everyone despite--or even through--his apparent defeat. The deceiver has apparently triumphed, but I have a feeling that much like Jesus and Obi-Wan Kenobi, if you strike Jacob down, he will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

The Esau character is a great kind of Satan archetype--tricky and manipulative, appealing to our pride and vanity and promising the respect/power that we crave, but ultimately leading us down a path of ruin and self defeat. Jacob is also an interesting representation of God on the other hand--keeping watch over the characters and maintaining a presence (even if unrecognized) throughout their lives--helping them, healing them (Locke after his fall), steering them in the right direction (Kate) but also not pressing a magic button that erases all of their misfortunes (Sayid). Present in the time of difficulty, but not always making it go away. Also, ultimately respectful of free will--he could have said any number of things to Ben to save himself, but allowed Ben to make his own choice about whether or not to betray him. (I can't wait to see Ben's expression when he walks outside and sees Locke's corpse.)

The producers have always claimed that Stephen King's The Stand was a major influence on the show, and we are certainly seeing the big good vs. evil/God vs. the Devil themes coming to the forefront on a biblical scale.

 

[SwedishHeat]

I really question the importance of John Locke now--he's really just dead after all and not the big leader with a special purpose.

I know someone else with a special purpose.

Okay okay okay, I had to. . . but seriously folks, that'd be a freak-out if every time we thought we were seeing Jacob, we were actually seeing that Esau guy. All those visions in the cabin were actually the bad guy.

I didn't catch it, but why are we calling him Esau, just because he was Jacob's brother in the Bible??

So, it looks like the good guys actually are the good guys and we have yet to meet the bad guys.

 

[tomandshell]

I didn't catch it, but why are we calling him Esau, just because he was Jacob's brother in the Bible??

He wasn't named on the show. The casting call sheet was for a character named "Samuel." He's being called Esau because that's the name of Jacob's brother in the Bible. But in that relationship, Esau was the favored older brother and Jacob was the jealous, deceitful trickster who stole Esau's birthright. Esau was not his "evil" brother and the biblical namesake doesn't match the Lost character of Jacob's Enemy.

I believe that we've been seeing him in various forms for quite some time now, and he seems to have a connection with the smoke monster. Example--in "Namaste," Sun and Lapidus leave the survivors of 316 and return to the barracks on the main island. They hear the smoke monster noises. Christian appears and tells them to wait for Locke and to follow him. Then Locke appears and Sun goes with him. I would argue that in this situation, Smoke Monster/Christian/Locke are all manifestations of Jacob's Enemy.

Or look at the scene in "Dead is Dead" where Ben goes with Locke to the underground temple to be judged. Ben is with Locke. Ben falls through the floor, separated from Locke. The Smoke Monster appears, then vanishes. Then we see Alex, who tells Ben to follow Locke's orders blindly. Then she vanishes, and Locke reappears above Ben. Again, Smoke Monster/Alex/Locke are probably all manifestations of Jacob's Enemy manipulating people towards his own ends.

Whereas Jacob is all about free will. For example, he doesn't tell Hurley to take the guitar case. He just says it isn't his and leaves it in the cab. Hurley makes a choice to take it with him, of his own free will. When and if the case becomes important and influences the plot, it will not be because Jacob forced Hurley's hand or manipulated him, but rather because Hurley made a decision. I imagine this is all a part of Jacob proving his enemy wrong about human nature, per their discussion in the opening scene.

 

[DarthNeil]

Awesome episode--- Some of the best writing on tv.

Just to continue the Jacob/Esau idea further-- anyone else notice that when Esau emerged onto the beach Jacob offered him some food (the fish he was having) and Esau responded with a somewhat sarcastic "No thanks, I just ate."

That ties in directly to

Genesis 25:29-34 shows him willingly selling his birthright to Jacob[1] in exchange for a "mess of pottage" (meal of lentils). Controversy has surrounded this scripture, in that some have noted that Esau may have been in danger of starving to death and was taken advantage of by Jacob in a vulnerable moment. Certainly, Jacob's refusal to share his food without exacting a high price from Esau is in conflict with Biblical principles for moral living such as charity and goodwill. However, others[who?] suggest that among the large entourage of Isaac's wealthy household, death from starvation would not likely have been a genuine danger simply on account of Esau not having caught anything while hunting that day. Owing to the strict law concerning draining the blood from an animal before eating it, Esau would not have expected to immediately eat what he killed and would probably have carried food while hunting. According to the Bible the food laws were given later to Moses. Rather, Esau's words about being close to death may have been dramatic exaggeration of the type frequently found in the Old Testament and that selling his birthright indicated Esau's lack of appreciation for the long-term value of such an intangible right when he was more interested in fulfilling his immediate needs.

 

[316what]

Also, anyone make anything of the switch in Lost logos from white on black to black on white? the shifting of power from the overthrow of Jacob by Esau?

I don't think there is anything to be read into this change. I think it has more to do with the "white" flash from the "explosion" of the bomb and thus the black lettering.

But then again, everything means something on this show.

 

[Shropt]

Another proof of the Esau/Smoke Monster idea. In "Dead is Dead", Ben and Sun are alone. They think they hear the smoke monster coming then Locke steps out of the trees.

Coincedence?

 

[Michael Crawford]

I haven't read through everything yet, but let's not dismiss the importance of Locke quite yet. Yes, I do think he was manipulated by Esau, but it was Jacob that went to him and saved him from the fall initially.

Jacob knew what was coming, and he is the one that was shown altering or touching the lives of Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid (in a rather nasty fashion), Jin and Sun, Jack...the very people (with the exception of Sun) that are back in 1977. Jacob wants them back there, and when he says "they are coming", I believe that's who he means. I think that we'll see Sun do something critical soon as well, as part of Jacob's plan, as did Adele (I think that was her name?).

Assuming Jacob is good and Esau is bad might be a bit premature, too. They are definitely at odds with each other, but I think we might have more ambiguity with the relationship than simple good vs. evil.

Great finale, and I can't wait for next year!

 

[El Skutto]

Any bets as to whether the skeletons they discovered in the caves in season one will turn out to be the bodies of Rose and Bernard?